Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

I understand the reflex and the instinct to strike when someone strikes you. And being spit in the face to me is akin to being slapped. It sounds like the caregiver feels badly enough about it and will likely be better prepared for future incidents.

0 Replies

snood wrote:

amen, aidan.

Snood- before I forget- Have a wonderful wedding tomorrow. Congratulations and much happiness always to you and your new wife!
I'm happy for you.

0 Replies

The boy who was once my youngest nephew knew that i did not use corporal punishment on those frequent occasions when i cared for him and his older brother. He began, at about age four, to attempt to take advantage of this by hitting me and running away. I warned him, literally for months (this usually didn't happen more often than once a week at most), and he paid absolutely no attention. Finally, one evening while his mother and father were in the living room, and i was in the kitchen getting dinner, he made a bad operational error. While standing so that i was between him and the door to the living room, he hit me in the stomach, and tried to run past me to get away. I simply put my hand out, and when he ran into it, i lifted him up, swatted his butt, and put him back down. I then pointed out that he had been warned repeatedly.

He stood there holding his butt, and trying to squeeze out some tears (a transparently phony effort). He kept repeating: "Uncle _____, you hit me--you said you never hit us." Each time he said it, i told him that he had been warned. Finally, tiring of a circular argument in which he could make no headway, he went into the living room to complain to his father (my brother) that i'd hit him. His father dryly observed that he'd have been far less patient, and would have "knocked you into the middle of next week" long ago.

I don't favor physical violence toward children, but there are times when it is appropriate. This is one of those "never say never" situations.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

So, if you have a family with two wage-earners, and they pay for professional child care in the home, that's going to be 40 hours or more per week, which is, by your numbers, 240 to 320 euros per week, at the least. Your maid service, working the standard 35 hours per week in France, is going to get 350 to 420 euros per week, at the least. In both cases, the employee is going to get at least one meal per day.

Any way you cut it, an au pair is a source of cheap labor. Nevermind that if the au pair is working in your home to provide child care, you're going to get more than 30 hours per week out of them--just how many "Au Pair Police" officers are cruising the neighborhoods to assure that no one is violating the terms of service? Just how realistic is it to claim that no one ever exploits the labor of an au pair?

Color me unconvinced.

i don'tknow where you guys get the payment numbers but my gf is going to get only pocket money and that is going to be about 300 euros for 3 months!!!

as for her qualifications- she was hired by an au pair association based on her previous experience , faultless four year au pair work with a family and got references - never ever did she hit a child during the work with that family- as i said, that spitting to her was a very extreme she would have ever encountered from a child

0 Replies

Just for the record, i used the numbers in my calculations which were provided by Walter.

I have always been so fond of "you guys"-based arguments.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

Just for the record, i used the numbers in my calculations which were provided by Walter.

I have always been so fond of "you guys"-based arguments.

i didn't mean anyone specifically, i just noticed some numbers and amounts of money that m gf is not going to get

0 Replies

aidan, this was the main thing that I was responding to:

aidan wrote:

If anyone spit in my face, adult or child, I assure you I would calmly wipe it off and walk away. But I would NEVER stand for my own child acting in such a manner- and I would yes- swat them on the butt. BIG DEAL.

(Emphasis mine.)

In your more recent posts you seem to be backing down from that.

I'm plenty emotional, I'm not some Parentbot. It's just that I don't consider expressing anger through physical violence to be an example I want to set. I have a glare of death that thoroughly freaks out everyone who encounters it, including sozlet -- I employ it in extreme situations and she knows very well if I employ it that I'm mad (and stops whatever she was doing that made me mad, stat). I cry when I get really frustrated. I yell occasionally. But, for reasons that Boomer outlined eloquently as well as for reasons of efficacy, I don't hit.

I explicitly said that if it happens, I don't think it's the end of the world, and I don't think a child will be scarred for life. I just don't think it's a result to plan on. ("If the kid acts up, I will swat the kid on the butt.") I think it's something to be avoided and that giving into it is something to regret.

0 Replies

stach wrote:

i don'tknow where you guys get the payment numbers but my gf is going to get only pocket money and that is going to be about 300 euros for 3 months!!!

Quote:

Au Pair Classique :30 heures par semaine : environ 300 EURO par mois
Au Pair Plus : 35 heures par semaine : environ 340 EURO par mois.

Source

Other French agencies pay about the same.

0 Replies

I agree with aidan that a four year old should know better than to spit unless there are some developmental/emotional issues with the child. If there are significant issues with this given child such that he is unable to learn that spitting is unacceptable then I don't think he should be left in the care of an au pair without proper training of the person hired for the job. I do think permanent damage can be done to a child with significant development issues by caregivers not trained to work with special needs kids.

Assuming this boy is developing normally, there are bigger issues here than her reaction to his spitting. Unfortunately, that issue is beyond her control and it goes back to the parenting style of the parents. Somewhere along the line this kid got the idea that spitting would be tolerated. I would be surprised if a four year old had just discovered spitting as a response to whatever it was that triggered this event.

I agree with those who thought she should bring it up to the parents. If they condone spitting from their four year old, I would advise her to look for another placement. If the household is one where they typically react to his reactions in kind then I'd haul my own butt out of there pronto.

I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect parent. We all react to things in the heat of the moment and sometimes we react in ways outside of our own character. In this particular case, I don't think the child should have been spitting, I don't think the gf should have been slapping, and I don't think the parents have a very good handle on what's happening in their home.

0 Replies

aidan wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
I'm not sure how you get from deploring a caretaker slapping a child to "this intense focus on every little thing that happens in a child's life."

Perhaps we've been reading different threads.

I was generalizing- the attitude- not the actual event.

For the fifth time- I said I would fire a person I had hired to take care of my child if they slapped him or her. But I would not be worried that my child would be scarred for life by the event, and I would not excuse or condone my child's behavior which initiated the exchange.

My focus an worry in terms of behavior would be more on my child's than on the woman's.

I also find it interesting that those who pooh-pooh the spitting seem to be younger folks with younger children.

To me, spitting is a sign of intense disrespect. But maybe that's because I was raised in a different time when as a child my whims of behavior were not indulged. There were certain standards of behavior I was expected to abide by - even by the age of four. If I couldn't there were consequences.

And in no way- did I EVER FEEL ABUSED. I felt that I knew what I was supposed to do.

A lot of these behaviors result from confusion and the fact that there are no limits imposed- or that the limits are always being slid back because of one excuse or rationalization or another.

Aidan, you sound really realistic, wise and sincere. The only point I don't understand is why would you fire the woman given the fact you don't think the child was physically or mentally harmed? Would you consider what impression she would make overally? What if she acts gently, politely and
thoughtfully under most circumstances? I am not trying to defend my gf, just asking what other criteria would be considered choosing an au pair or deciding to fire one. What if she said to you, I am sorry, that incident took me by surprise? She is really not a full professional, she is a university student and this is her summer job. As was said before she only gets some pocket money.

0 Replies

Walter Hinteler wrote:

stach wrote:
i don'tknow where you guys get the payment numbers but my gf is going to get only pocket money and that is going to be about 300 euros for 3 months!!!

Quote:
Au Pair Classique :30 heures par semaine : environ 300 EURO par mois
Au Pair Plus : 35 heures par semaine : environ 340 EURO par mois.
Source

Other French agencies pay about the same.

it seems she was hired by some kind of alternative inofficial agency or something that offers cheap Eastern European au pair students, i will ask my gf again about the money but as far as I know, her pocket money would only cover a few drinks and a sandwich a day or so...

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

I'm plenty emotional, I'm not some Parentbot. It's just that I don't consider expressing anger through physical violence to be an example I want to set. I have a glare of death that thoroughly freaks out everyone who encounters it, including sozlet -- I employ it in extreme situations and she knows very well if I employ it that I'm mad (and stops whatever she was doing that made me mad, stat). I cry when I get really frustrated. I yell occasionally. But, for reasons that Boomer outlined eloquently as well as for reasons of efficacy, I don't hit.

I explicitly said that if it happens, I don't think it's the end of the world, and I don't think a child will be scarred for life. I just don't think it's a result to plan on. ("If the kid acts up, I will swat the kid on the butt.") I think it's something to be avoided and that giving into it is something to regret.

I agree completely. I would imagine that sozlet was correctly able to interpret the glare by the time she was two.

0 Replies

Stach -- The more I learn from you, the more I sense that your girlfriend is getting a pretty raw deal.

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

Stach -- The more I learn from you, the more I sense that your girlfriend is getting a pretty raw deal.

well i have to ask again but it would make sense for a French and Eastern European agency to make a good deal our of offering Eastern European students to French families for little money and getting some profit

but she really didnt' go there to make money but to improve French and learn more about different culture - plus she usually likes kids and this is also great experience for her as future mother

0 Replies

aidan wrote:

Maybe your four year old is different than other four year olds I've known- and I've known and done cognitive and behavioral and developmental testing on a lot of four year olds- so I have to disagree that four year olds should not be aware that spitting directly in a person's face is not acceptable behavior.

But as I said, that may be because the standards of behavior in general have shifted.

I do not condone hitting children. Anyone who gathers that from what I've said has misunderstood my posts.

I do understand how sometimes hitting can happen, and can even be an effective deterrent. Do I wish it never had to happen - YES! Do I think a child will be scarred for life by a swat on the butt? NO!
Do I think worse damage will happen if the child is not asked to take responsibility for or made aware that their behavior is reprehensible than if he or she is swatted on the butt- YES!

Did I apologize and explain why I did what I did to my child each of the five times in his eighteen years I swatted him on the butt- YES!

Do both of my kids still love me even though they understand I'm human and sometimes lost my temper? YES!

It's really not that big a deal- there is REAL abuse that is happening out there every single day that is a much bigger issue.

I am not 100% against spanking - slapping in the face is different and out of control slapping is even more so. It is the uncontrolled result that worries me.

I did not say that a four year old could not understand that spitting is not acceptable behaviour - they cannot understand that it is disrespectful behaviour - in other words to them spitting is in line with hitting. They don't understand the disgust that comes with it - until of course you explain it to them. That why I said it depends on whether this is a rare once or twice testing thing rather than something the child has gotten away with in the past.

My daughter spat at me - she learned it some where (not sure where as she doesn't go to school yet, but does have contact with other small children). I "taught" her it was unacceptable and how naughty it was. Of course she knew was doing something naughty - young children do all sorts of naughty things - she didn't know the level of how bad it was.

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

Linkat wrote:
This person may or may not lose control again - however, I wouldn't chance it with a child. Would you?

Yes I would, judging by the information we'd been given -- which is that that this was a knee-jerk reaction in a highly unusual situation. It was not something she would choose to do. To me, this is firmly within "nobody's perfect" territory. Nothing to seriously worry about.

Well I disagree - no one who hits my child either in one reflex or not will ever be near her again. I don't condone hitting in my child and I certainly don't condone others hitting my child.

My older child has been in school since pre-school - never has a teacher had to hit a child to keep him/her in line. Why would a nanny/au pair or anyone else.

You hit my child - you are fired (wouldn't be an issue for me any way as I wouldn't hire an au pair for other reasons).

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

Linkat wrote:
This person may or may not lose control again - however, I wouldn't chance it with a child. Would you?

Yes I would, judging by the information we'd been given -- which is that that this was a knee-jerk reaction in a highly unusual situation. It was not something she would choose to do. To me, this is firmly within "nobody's perfect" territory. Nothing to seriously worry about.

Well I disagree - no one who hits my child either in one reflex or not will ever be near her again. I don't condone hitting in my child and I certainly don't condone others hitting my child.

It is not a matter of a knee-jerk reaction, but of hitting is wrong. I do not want (especially some one who is trying to hide it - ie asking a child to lie and not tell his parents something) some one responsible for my child to be teaching or modeling bad behavior.

My older child has been in school since pre-school - never has a teacher had to hit a child to keep him/her in line. Why would a nanny/au pair or anyone else.

You hit my child - you are fired (wouldn't be an issue for me any way as I wouldn't hire an au pair for other reasons).

0 Replies

aidan wrote:

Sorry- I guess I should say, "Do I wish it never happened."

Yes, just like I wish that any other horrible human behaviors or foibles which make people unhappy would never happen.

But until I never make another mistake- I don't believe I have the right to judge anyone elses human failings or mistakes as either lesser or greater than my own.

I applaud you all who are in total control of every aspect of your child rearing- really- I find it simply amazing.

I'm not in 100% control - 100% of the time, but to hit out of control - I've said some things in anger like a couple of choice swear words - and then explained how even parents make mistakes, but not physically strike out.

0 Replies

boomerang wrote:

I've never held myself out to be a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination, and, at 47, I hardly qualify as a youngster. I'm certainly not in control of every aspect of my child-rearing but I most certainly in control of my hands.

I wouldn't hit Mr. B if I was mad at him, or my mom, or my siblings, or my friends, or a stranger therefore I can't imagine what in the world would ever make it okay for me to strike Mo.

My parents never hit me either so I really don't think this is some kind of new fangled child-king ideology.

I think you hit it on the nose. You don't hit (at least most reasonable adults don't) other adults when you get angry at them - why is it considered o-k to hit a child?

0 Replies

Soz- 'm not backing down. I'm just acknowledging the fact that others might not understand what I mean and/or agree, or are intent on focusing on their own issues within this issue, and I don't feel the need or desire to defend my stance or try to explain it any more fully, as it seems to have become an exercise in futility.
Some people are determined to think what they want to think, besides the fact that sometimes people just don't understand each other or agree- especially on an internet forum when/where there is little background or context by which to judge the nuances of a person's thoughts or the truth of their situation.

I'm tired actually Laughing

- I worked today and it's 11:00 pm here.

All I will say is, though I may feel differently than some people about some parenting issues, I feel my children are extremely lucky to have me as a mother, and I know they do too. And if I had a four year old child who spat in someone's face tomorrow- I'd give them a swat on their bottom.

Good-night. :wink:

0 Replies

Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know