Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

Thanks for the explaination.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

You get a (free) 24-hours hotline

Yeah . . . here in the United States, illegal immigrants who are being exploited by their employers have a toll free number they can call to report them. Just imagine how bored the employee who holds down that phone is.

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I see. I took it as a matter of course that the judgement of the parents was questionable to say the least.

A) Their child thinks that they can get away with spitting in someone's face.
B) They left their child with a caregiver without discussing appropriate disciplinary methods.

Either of these would make me question their judgement. Both together make me think they're clueless as parents....

Then again, it requires more training to get a driver's license than it does to become a parent....

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"In the US, the child is the top, the elite- that's the bottom line. So we have a bunch of little princes and princesses, lording it over the footmen and Cinderellas who have to take care of them."

Well if that isn't over generalizing.not all children are raised that way in the US or elsewhere. Yes some people do and yes some people do not. I know plenty who and plenty who do not.

"If this had been between two children, would the slap be considered worse than spitting in the face? If your child slapped someone and they spit back, would the parent then say, "Well, my kid only slapped yours- yours **** SPIT in my kid's face.""

As a young child of four it wouldn't matter either would be wrong and my child would be punished whichever end she was on. I have had these discussions with my children that if some one does something like that you walk away - it is not acceptable to hit, bite, scratch or spit (yes I have used spit) or hurt anyone.

"everyone knows the perfect parenting methods to employ at all times and does it to the letter without ever a slip. I hate to say it, but if all parents were as perfect as they profess to be, we wouldn't have the society we've ended up with."

What the heck do you mean? There are no perfect parenting methodseach child and each situation is different. One of my children I could simply give her a look and she cries and that is all she needs. The other needs stronger discipline. And at other times, I have had to simply throw up my hands and put them in their rooms. I have NEVER heard in my life one parent EVER claim they were perfect as parents. I wonder who you hand around with.

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Thomas wrote:

Linkat wrote:
The slap may not have caused any permanent physical harm, but I would worry that something could cause something even more serious.

We're talking about a slap in the face. How would a slap in the face cause "something even more serious" than "permanent physical damage"?

The slap in the face of course does not. The lack of control does. Some one that uses physical means to control a child is likely to use physical means again.

This person may or may not lose control again - however, I wouldn't chance it with a child. Would you?

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Thomas wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Oh, I agree. I'm just not sure what the situation has to do with the propriety of striking a child.

It doesn't. It has to do with comments like "I also think that it was extremely unprofessional for her to slap the child", or "I'd fire her in a New York minute", or "Well I call it abuse!", or "I hope your friend will not be allowed to stay with the poor children!".

These comments may be appropriate for a professional caretaker (although I find even that debatable). For an au-pair, who isn't a professional, it's just expecting too much.

It is appropriate for anyone taking care of a child. What are we talking about a plant?

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boomerang wrote:

I have to ask -- why are the grandparents now in charge of the kids?

I ask this because my son, Mo, spent the first two years of his life in a home where adults spitting at each other, and worse, was not uncommon.

When he first came here he would spit, and worse, at me.

I suppose I could have reinforced the idea of disrespect by hitting, slapping, or spitting at him but I'm really glad I didn't. I have a really hard time with the idea that the way to teach someone respect is by not respecting them.

Boomer's long and intense experience really stands out here for me, as well as her conclusion.

I suspect there are some adult models to the child's behavior in the thread situation.

(I'm no expert, merely reading along).

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Linkat- I respect your right to have your view.

I hang around with all sorts of people-all ages, all socio-economic backgrounds- all religions, nationalities, etc.- I enjoy life's rich tapestry as far as that goes. Laughing

But I've worked for many years with children and have dealt over and over again with parents in the public school systems who are in denial that their child could or would ever do anything wrong, and who cite chapter and verse, (when at all questioned or challenged about how they might have their child take responsibility for his or her behavior or life- no matter how gently)- their parenting credentials- and their belief that there has to be some other outside reason their child can't function appropriately.

And I do see a remarkable dichotomy in the attitude dependent on income, as a matter of fact. The parents who can afford au pairs and nannies, seem to be the least aware of what their child is truly like- which makes sense if you think about it. They don't spend nearly as much time with their children as someone who can't afford to pay someone else to do it.

In terms of the child as the be all and end all - that's apparent in the shifted focus of our media and societal mores and values- even if you don't want to take it on a case by case basis- and I do think it's more prevalent than it used to be in the US- I've seen a major shift since I started teaching in l985.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe that all this intense focus on every little thing that happens in a child's life is healthy. I think it creates a bunch of little narcissicistic, neurotic whiners who can't handle real life. I'd rather deal realistically with my kids and tell them- "You act like this- you get this back. You act like that- you get that back" and empower them to make their own decisions about what they want their interactions with people to be like, instead of running to mommy and daddy to fix everything.

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I'm not sure how you get from deploring a caretaker slapping a child to "this intense focus on every little thing that happens in a child's life."

Perhaps we've been reading different threads.

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When I was younger (early 20s), I used to meet lots of au pairs. A guy friend of mine loved dating them. Most I found to be mature and responsible. And yes most used this as an opportunity to come and experience a different culture and country. They did for the most part take their job seriously and would follow instructions to the "T". They were afraid of losing this great opportunity. I remember one girl in particular. She would talk about the kids all the time. Although their main intervention was the culture and experience, I found most loved working and caring for children. Again, this girl was so by the rules, on her day off the family allowed her to use their car. Four of us went together to go for a hike - it was a couple hour drive so on the ride back one of the guys offered to drive knowing she was tired. She said, "No." I am not allowed to let anyone else drive, they are not on the insurance and I am responsible for the car. It was typical of most that I met.

However, to be quite honest, I probably would not consider hiring an au pair for my children - maybe when they were older - school aged.

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DrewDad wrote:

I'm not sure how you get from deploring a caretaker slapping a child to "this intense focus on every little thing that happens in a child's life."

Perhaps we've been reading different threads.

I was generalizing- the attitude- not the actual event.

For the fifth time- I said I would fire a person I had hired to take care of my child if they slapped him or her. But I would not be worried that my child would be scarred for life by the event, and I would not excuse or condone my child's behavior which initiated the exchange.

My focus an worry in terms of behavior would be more on my child's than on the woman's.

I also find it interesting that those who pooh-pooh the spitting seem to be younger folks with younger children.

To me, spitting is a sign of intense disrespect. But maybe that's because I was raised in a different time when as a child my whims of behavior were not indulged. There were certain standards of behavior I was expected to abide by - even by the age of four. If I couldn't there were consequences.

And in no way- did I EVER FEEL ABUSED. I felt that I knew what I was supposed to do.

A lot of these behaviors result from confusion and the fact that there are no limits imposed- or that the limits are always being slid back because of one excuse or rationalization or another.

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aidan wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
I'm not sure how you get from deploring a caretaker slapping a child to "this intense focus on every little thing that happens in a child's life."

Perhaps we've been reading different threads.

I was generalizing- the attitude- not the actual event.

For the fifth time- I said I would fire a person I had hired to take care of my child if they slapped him or her. But I would not be worried that my child would be scarred for life by the event, and I would not excuse or condone my child's behavior which initiated the exchange.

My focus an worry in terms of behavior would be more on my child's than on the woman's.

I also find it interesting that those who pooh-pooh the spitting seem to be younger folks with younger children.

To me, spitting is a sign of intense disrespect. But maybe that's because I was raised in a different time when as a child my whims of behavior were not indulged. There were certain standards of behavior I was expected to abide by - even by the age of four. If I couldn't there were consequences.

And in no way- did I EVER FEEL ABUSED. I felt that I knew what I was supposed to do.

A lot of these behaviors result from confusion and the fact that there are no limits imposed- or that the limits are always being slid back because of one excuse or rationalization or another.

Aiden - I am 44 - I have both an older child, 8 and a younger child, 4. Spitting for a 4 year old is NOT a sign of disrespect - they don't have that capacity to understand that at 4 - especially if this is a once or twice incident - now I don't know the specifics of this one child so it could be that this child has gotten away with misbehavior in the past - even so he is 4. A four year old does not have the same capability and understand as a 20 year old. He SHOULD be punished, but not slapped. He should be taught it is unacceptable. An adult that should have proper training should know better.

However, in the cause of my 8 year old, yes I would look at it as disrespect. But not my 4 year old. The four year old certainly does know better now though. Yes - the first incident of my child spitting was shocking and I was angry, but I certainly did not hit her and she certainly was not indulged. And believe me there were consequences, but not hitting.

There is a HUGE difference between setting limits and using hitting as a way to enforce them.

In this situation, they both should be disciplined in some appropriate manner.

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aidan wrote:

But I've worked for many years with children and have dealt over and over again with parents in the public school systems who are in denial that their child could or would ever do anything wrong, and who cite chapter and verse, (when at all questioned or challenged about how they might have their child take responsibility for his or her behavior or life- no matter how gently)- their parenting credentials- and their belief that there has to be some other outside reason their child can't function appropriately.

And I do see a remarkable dichotomy in the attitude dependent on income, as a matter of fact. The parents who can afford au pairs and nannies, seem to be the least aware of what their child is truly like- which makes sense if you think about it. They don't spend nearly as much time with their children as someone who can't afford to pay someone else to do it.

In terms of the child as the be all and end all - that's apparent in the shifted focus of our media and societal mores and values- even if you don't want to take it on a case by case basis- and I do think it's more prevalent than it used to be in the US- I've seen a major shift since I started teaching in l985.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe that all this intense focus on every little thing that happens in a child's life is healthy. I think it creates a bunch of little narcissicistic, neurotic whiners who can't handle real life. I'd rather deal realistically with my kids and tell them- "You act like this- you get this back. You act like that- you get that back" and empower them to make their own decisions about what they want their interactions with people to be like, instead of running to mommy and daddy to fix everything.

I agree with you on the whole. There are some public school systems that are much better than others and some are like you describe - probably why my children are in private. Even there though you can get the attitude you describe. I know first hand as a girl (that unfortunately my daughter likes) is from such a family. The only girl in her class that has gotten the dreaded "in trouble" slip of paper sent home and her mom has argued against the teachers because of such incidents.

You are probably right that there seems to be more of this child runs the family stuff, but there are lots out there too that are not - people tend to hear and see the loud ones and those that are problems. The others tend to be more quiet so they don't stick out as much.

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Maybe your four year old is different than other four year olds I've known- and I've known and done cognitive and behavioral and developmental testing on a lot of four year olds- so I have to disagree that four year olds should not be aware that spitting directly in a person's face is not acceptable behavior.

But as I said, that may be because the standards of behavior in general have shifted.

I do not condone hitting children. Anyone who gathers that from what I've said has misunderstood my posts.

I do understand how sometimes hitting can happen, and can even be an effective deterrent. Do I wish it never had to happen - YES! Do I think a child will be scarred for life by a swat on the butt? NO!
Do I think worse damage will happen if the child is not asked to take responsibility for or made aware that their behavior is reprehensible than if he or she is swatted on the butt- YES!

Did I apologize and explain why I did what I did to my child each of the five times in his eighteen years I swatted him on the butt- YES!

Do both of my kids still love me even though they understand I'm human and sometimes lost my temper? YES!

It's really not that big a deal- there is REAL abuse that is happening out there every single day that is a much bigger issue.

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Linkat wrote:

This person may or may not lose control again - however, I wouldn't chance it with a child. Would you?

Yes I would, judging by the information we'd been given -- which is that that this was a knee-jerk reaction in a highly unusual situation. It was not something she would choose to do. To me, this is firmly within "nobody's perfect" territory. Nothing to seriously worry about.

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aidan wrote:

Do I wish it never had to happen - YES!

No one ever has to hit a child. There are always alternatives, some more effective than others, to hitting a child.

It's interesting that in the 2.5 years I've been on this forum I've never seen this topic discussed -- perhaps I've missed it. It's a topic that was debated ad nauseum on a parenting board I used to follow. Those who sometimes lost control of themselves found excuses, those who believed in corporal punishment found justification from their church, parents, or each other, but the bottom line is that you never HAVE to hit a child.

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Sorry- I guess I should say, "Do I wish it never happened."

Yes, just like I wish that any other horrible human behaviors or foibles which make people unhappy would never happen.

But until I never make another mistake- I don't believe I have the right to judge anyone elses human failings or mistakes as either lesser or greater than my own.

I applaud you all who are in total control of every aspect of your child rearing- really- I find it simply amazing.

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JPB wrote:

aidan wrote:
Do I wish it never had to happen - YES!

No one ever has to hit a child. There are always alternatives, some more effective than others, to hitting a child.

It's interesting that in the 2.5 years I've been on this forum I've never seen this topic discussed -- perhaps I've missed it. It's a topic that was debated ad nauseum on a parenting board I used to follow. Those who sometimes lost control of themselves found excuses, those who believed in corporal punishment found justification from their church, parents, or each other, but the bottom line is that you never HAVE to hit a child.

It has been discussed here occasionally.

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aidan wrote:

I applaud you all who are in total control of every aspect of your child rearing- really- I find it simply amazing.

Somehow I missed the memo that never striking a child equates to being perfect and/or in total control of every aspect of child rearing.

Nobody here except you has claimed such a thing.

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I've never held myself out to be a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination, and, at 47, I hardly qualify as a youngster. I'm certainly not in control of every aspect of my child-rearing but I most certainly in control of my hands.

I wouldn't hit Mr. B if I was mad at him, or my mom, or my siblings, or my friends, or a stranger therefore I can't imagine what in the world would ever make it okay for me to strike Mo.

My parents never hit me either so I really don't think this is some kind of new fangled child-king ideology.

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Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

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