Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

OGIONIK wrote:

she should have spit back into the kids face, that way he learns to do unto others as he wishes unto himself or something.

then again i abhor children. gg.

Yeah the child learns that if adults can spit - it is ok.

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eoe wrote:

aidan-just curious, would you have said anything to the person who slapped your kid for spitting in their face?

If she was working for me, I would have fired her, as I said, because I do think her reaction, though viscerally understandable, was just that- visceral and emotional and not really what I would be looking for in someone who was watching my kids.

I've used the swat on the butt thing (again, only EVER with my own kids) as a kind of emphasis. An exclamation point, if you will as in NO! THAT will not be tolerated. It worked with my kids, because I only ever had to do it about five times throughout their childhood, so it retained it's shock value. My kids aren't perfect by any means, but they're gentle souls - because I am and their father is too- they don't hit or hurt people- even with words- I've never, ever had an issue with it with either one of them.

Part of it is also that I admit- I've got a bit of an irish temper. I'm not a "don't show any emotion and always do the level headed thing kind of person" (particularly at home) because I do have to be that type of person at my job- and it doesn't come all that naturally to me. I'm more likely to be too emotionally involved than not emotionally involved enough.
I'm a passionate person, and although I do a good job most of the time at controlling my emotions, sometimes I do act instinctively- sounds like you guys don't have that problem. Good for you.

But I've also always known myself to be someone who would never get out of control and abusive, and my method worked for me and my family- so no worries.

But again, you guys do what works for you. The only thing I hate to see is the child being treated like a precious treasure, while the adult or child they abuse is villianized. Believe me...that scenario doesn't bode well for that kid's future.

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"She slapped him over his face making him cry like hell.."

What the f*ck?!!! I think this au pair should be reported and fired! I agree that children should not be spitting in some one's face. But even if the little monster kicked and scratched and beat her - he is FOUR! She is an adult! To slap a four year old is not right no matter the circumstance. An adult that cannot control themselves from slapping a young child should NOT be around children.

I agree, that if the children are that unruly, she may not want to work with and leave, but NEVER slap the children - in the face - unf*cking believable.

An au pair should not let the children torture her, but an au pair should know how to handle children without physical violence. If an au pair cannot do this, s/he should not be an au pair.

If I were the mother, firing her would be the least of her worries - she would be lucky if I only slapped her as she slapped the four year old.

My four year old has spat (once and only once) at me and she is usually well behaved (i.e. when some one else is caring for her they usually complement how well behaved she is). I honestly do not know where she learned this as I have not seen anyone do this around her. Any child, even a well behaved child acts up at times. I think at that age a child finds something that would draw a lot of attention even negative. What I did was make it clear verbally that it is unacceptable - hold her firmly and look straight at her and sternly say "There is no spitting!" Believe me a child knows "that look" and put her on her bed - no attention - basically they are seeking some sort of reaction. I also tell her to think about what she did and whether she thinks it is o-k.

What you do - You make it clear it is wrong and give a proper punishment. A four year old doesn't have complete understanding how disgusting spitting is - an adult does have complete understanding how hurtful and cruel slapping in the face is.

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While, in seriousness, i understand the objections of people here who deplore the child having been slapped, i am disgusted by those who speak about it being "unprofessional," or something which suggests that the au pair is not "qualified."

An au pair is not "qualified" for anything--that's why they get **** jobs such as spending the day watching someone's snotty kids. They don't behave professionally because they are not pursuing a profession. But what pisses me off is that the people who are making these comments sound like a bunch of elitist snobs to me. People hire au pairs because it is a cheap solution to their childcare or household cleaning needs. They hire an au pair because they're too cheap to pay for what really is professional child care, or to pay for a full-time maid with experiences and references.

To me, it seems that someone who is complaining about the lack of professionalism on the part of an au pair is in the same league as the feudal lord of the manor complaining about a lack of enthusiasm among the serfs.

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Well, in Europe, au pairs are kind of qualified - e.g. in France, you have to show at least two references from previous work (some in Germany).

Besides, everything is regulated*: you work 30 hours per week, have one and a half day free, don't pay for your own room, get full board ... and (at leat) 80 Euros pocket money.

Of xourse, they certainly are still those 'lord of the manor types' enagaing some ...

But that's not legal.

*The first EU-law re au pairs was made in 1969.

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So tell me, Walter, how much professional, in-home child care can you get for 80 euros and "found?" How much would you pay to have a live-in maid?

Anyway you cut it, these people are employed because it is cheap, not because anyone expects a high degree of professionalism. Two references? Such as the restaurant at which you washed dishes, and the library where you put returned books back on the shelf? Yeah . . . those are some sterling qualifications.

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Setanta - my concern would be if she lost control in this one situation - where and how else would she loose control? The slap may not have caused any permanent physical harm, but I would worry that something could cause something even more serious. This is a four year old toddler - not a dog or something.

I wouldn't allow a teenager to watch my child that would lose control in such a way, much less an au pair - who it is required to receive training.

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Quote:

An au pair is like a family member for a given period of time in a fair equilibrium of give and take.

Duration: 6 to 12 months

Accommodation and meals: will be made available by the host family free of charge. The au pair must be provided a separate, heatable and sufficiently furnished room in the family's house or flat, and a family contact (e.g. by being invited to take part in the family's meals) must be guaranteed.

Language of host family: Au pairs are coming to Germany in order to improve their command of German. For this reason, German must be spoken by the family.

Working hours and type of help with housekeeping:
Help with housework will cover a maximum of 30 hours per week and should not exceed six hours per day, baby sitting included. Duties will comprise child care and light h
ousework (e.g. preparing a simple
meal, ironing, etc.).

Expenses covered by the host family:
monthly pocket money of 260,-; health,
accident and liability insurance; cost of medical
examinations if requested by the authorities
or by the host family; fares of transportation
required to attend a language course in the closest possible vicinity of the family's residence.

Holidays: two days of paid leave per month of actual presence (whereby the Sundays are not considered as a day of leave). Public holidays are free or must be compensated by giving time off.

Free time: The host family must allow a day
and a half of uninterrupted free time per week
covering a weekend at least once a month, and at least four free evenings per week.

Notice: The period of notice is 14 days. Termi-nation of the contract must be in writing.

This is (the English tanslation) from the German au-pair associations.
Since it's EU-law, in other countries it will be quite similar.

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Setanta said:

Quote:

To me, it seems that someone who is complaining about the lack of professionalism on the part of an au pair is in the same league as the feudal lord of the manor complaining about a lack of enthusiasm among the serfs.

Yeah well, that's what people who watch other people's kids, whether they have a professional degree or not, are looked at and treated as- paid help.

In the US, the child is the top, the elite- that's the bottom line. So we have a bunch of little princes and princesses, lording it over the footmen and Cinderellas who have to take care of them.

And it's really interesting to me to see how people are always ready to excuse behavior from their own children that they would never excuse from someone elses child.

If this had been between two children, would the slap be considered worse than spitting in the face? If your child slapped someone and they spit back, would the parent then say, "Well, my kid only slapped yours- yours ******* SPIT in my kid's face."

It's a joke how these kids are coddled and cossetted and everyone knows the perfect parenting methods to employ at all times and does it to the letter without ever a slip. I hate to say it, but if all parents were as perfect as they profess to be, we wouldn't have the society we've ended up with.

I do not advocate abuse in any way, shape, or form, (and in fact I abhor it) but if what we're looking at in this day and age is the result of the most enlightened and creme de la creme of parenting methods- my god- people have less common sense than I ever imagined. Obviously we haven't advanced or if you think we have, spend a day at a public school someday, and then come back and tell me that it's everyone else's kids who are the problem, and that these wonderful parenting methods are benefitting our society.

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Setanta wrote:

So tell me, Walter, how much professional, in-home child care can you get for 80 euros and "found?" How much would you pay to have a live-in maid?

A 'profesional' babysitter (= someone licenced and with a 'babysitter degree') gets - depending on the age - between 6 and 8 Euros here, might be 10 if older than 18.

Domestic helps (including taxes, insurences etc) get 10 - 12 Euros per hour.

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Set, I get and agree with your position of "you get what you pay for."

I also get that slapping a child is unacceptable for a care giver.

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So, if you have a family with two wage-earners, and they pay for professional child care in the home, that's going to be 40 hours or more per week, which is, by your numbers, 240 to 320 euros per week, at the least. Your maid service, working the standard 35 hours per week in France, is going to get 350 to 420 euros per week, at the least. In both cases, the employee is going to get at least one meal per day.

Any way you cut it, an au pair is a source of cheap labor. Nevermind that if the au pair is working in your home to provide child care, you're going to get more than 30 hours per week out of them--just how many "Au Pair Police" officers are cruising the neighborhoods to assure that no one is violating the terms of service? Just how realistic is it to claim that no one ever exploits the labor of an au pair?

Color me unconvinced.

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Linkat wrote:

The slap may not have caused any permanent physical harm, but I would worry that something could cause something even more serious.

We're talking about a slap in the face. How would a slap in the face cause "something even more serious" than "permanent physical damage"?

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DrewDad wrote:

I also get that slapping a child is unacceptable for a care giver.

I don't deny that. I also realize that "ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances." People make mistakes. Young people are more likely to make mistakes. None of that changes that the au pair system is exploitative, and that these people are placed in often difficult, or nearly impossible situations.

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Oh, I agree. I'm just not sure what the situation has to do with the propriety of striking a child.

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My comment was not about the propriety of slapping a child. If that is what you wish to focus on, help yourself. My comment was directed at those who claimed that the person having slapped the child showed a lack of professionalism, or that she was not qualified for the job. I am simply pointing out that people don't hire au pairs because they expect to get professional child care or housekeeping skills, or expect to hire someone who is specifically qualified for the job. I was pointing out that people hire an au pair because they're cheap.

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So why do people apply for jobs as au pairs?

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DrewDad wrote:

Oh, I agree. I'm just not sure what the situation has to do with the propriety of striking a child.

It doesn't. It has to do with comments like "I also think that it was extremely unprofessional for her to slap the child", or "I'd fire her in a New York minute", or "Well I call it abuse!", or "I hope your friend will not be allowed to stay with the poor children!".

These comments may be appropriate for a professional caretaker (although I find even that debatable). For an au-pair, who isn't a professional, it's just expecting too much.

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The European kids i knew took such jobs because it offered an opportunity to travel to a city or a country in which they could study, or acquire a language. For example, one friend of mine whom i met many years ago was a Parisian woman who spoke (obviously) faultless French, and who spoke an almost unintelligible English, until you got to know her. That was not because her knowledge of English was faulty, but because she had acquired the language while working in Yorkshire--so she spoke English with a French accent in the Yorkshire idiom, which meant that her accent was doubly "thick." She was typical, though, of so many people i met who had worked as an au pair. She took the job so that she could spend a couple of years in England, and pick up the language. I don't claim to be an expert, but every au pair of whom i have ever heard (including my sister, who worked in Greece in the early 70s) was a student looking for an opportunity to travel and study which they could not have otherwise afforded.

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Setanta wrote:

Nevermind that if the au pair is working in your home to provide child care, you're going to get more than 30 hours per week out of them--just how many "Au Pair Police" officers are cruising the neighborhoods to assure that no one is violating the terms of service? Just how realistic is it to claim that no one ever exploits the labor of an au pair?

Color me unconvinced.

You get a (free) 24-hours hotline :wink:

Certainly, I agree that au-pair is cheap work.
But actually the idea behind it is not work but giving someone the oppurtunity to learn and study a foreign language quite inexpensively.

Edited: noticed your post later: I agree with that, of course.

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Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

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