Need Advice

Well the medical community considers alcoholism a disease..."Within the medical community, there is broad consensus regarding alcoholism as a disease state. Outside the medical community, there is considerable debate regarding the Disease Theory of Alcoholism. " In 1956 the American Medical Association decided that alcoholism is a disease. Here is a great explanation of why they consider it a disease...http://www.gmu.edu/facstaff/facultyfacts/1-1/alcohsm.html

But in any case - I can understand that you want to help your boyfriend, unfortunately he needs to decide he wants to quit and it doesn't sound like he does. You may have to leave him - it may be the kick he needs to decide to quit or it may not. Either way you cannot do anything to help him until he makes this decision himself.

I once dated a guy that became a drug abuser - cocaine. At first he simply (at least I thought he did) take it recreationally - as an aside he was also a big drinker and had been charged with DUI too. I thought he had stopped using, but when I went in his room I saw this piece of paper. Not thinking I just picked it up (sort of to have something to play with in my hands), and it folded nicely into a packet that would hold coke. I completely stopped seeing him.

Strangely I thought I saw him this weekend at a playground. It has hard to tell as it has been 15 years or so and he was much heavier and lots of grey - I was hoping it was him simply because I like to think he got over his addictions. Aside from that he was a very sweet person.

Thanks for the education re: Friends of ... I had no idea it was a buzzword or code word.

The thing is, you are smart, and you knew going into that thread exactly what response your input was going to generate. So, on the one hand you may have wanted to alert others who think like you that they weren't alone, but you also knew you were going to stir things up... it's kind of what do do, isn't it?

And there's nothing wrong with that - but you have to accept the reaction you're out for. As long as you're okay with that, then there's no problem, other than upsetting other people. And really, if that's part of why you do it, that's for you to work out.

I get where you're coming from (re: the Emperor being naked), but if other people want to feel safe going to these meetings and living the jargon and all that, what's wrong with that? Not everybody appreciates being challenged.

If it works for them, it works for them.

I suggested Al-Anon for Shortygurl because she's trying to figure out what to do about an alcoholic partner.

Al-Anon helps people who love alcoholics by pointing out that Love Is Not Enough and Romance Can't Fit in a Bottle. The people talking are people who know.

I have a friend who went to Al-Anon for a couple of years and she says it saved her sanity. She couldn't say enough good things about it.

First of all, I don't claim to be an expert on AA. They do not deserve that much of my attention.
But do I have something against them? Yes, absolutely. Nothing personal, mind you, but I do have several problems
with their organization:

1 - they are a religious organization(eg, cult) posing as a non-religious organization
2 - it annoys me that the #1 recognized help group for alcoholics is letting down the people who really need
help by turning it into a religious propaganda/advertising compaign
3- the values that they attempt to brainwash into people are not only counterproductive in terms of overcoming an addiction, they are also dangerous for society. it is dangerous when people start to believe
that they are not responsible for their own actions, and that higher forces desire for them to do certain actions,
when it is actually mortal people speaking for those higher forces, essentially allowing them to be used as
puppets (eg, holy wars)
4 - i have a problem with any organization that teaches or preaches material that is not supported by evidence.
they have a right to it via free speach, but I find it highly unethical.
5 - Not everyone does have a choice to go to AA. Many people are FORCED to attend by court order, regardless
of their religion or lack thereof.

So, in my book, their organization is about on par with the Neo Nazis -- I can't ask for them to be locked up
because they have a right to free speach, but I sure as hell wish that they were locked up.



Clearly, I do not need to generalize, since they have made it their intent to strip away self-reliance and
free thought blatantly clear in their mission statement.



Kinda like "Tyler Durden"...



Some do, some don't. I do not question that there is some genetic correlation to alcoholism -- that is a scientific fact. However, a person cannot become an alcoholic if they don't have alcohol. Therefore, alcoholism is not genetic. So, if anything, what's being argued is that "the suceptibility to alcoholism" is a disease -- but that is not the same as "alcoholism," which is a behavior, clearly not a disease. Even if it were 100% genetic, I would still argue
that it is not a disease, because it is not a physical or nutritional defect, and does not
cause sickness in any way. What causes sickness is alcohol, a toxin that you choose to put
into your body. Having a mental state that causes you to want to put toxin into your body does not make your feelings a disease. Finally, just about every aspect of our personalities has a genetic component -- and we do not label these as diseases. For example, ones level of compassion, creativity, etc. I could care less what the AMA board voted on in 1956. It just doesn't fit the definition no matter how you look at it.

I thought some people were pre-disposed to not being able to chemically process alcohol... isn't that the genetics we're talking about?

Nope

I think that objections to AA and the causes of alcoholism are off topic here.

Shortygurl has a flawed romance and wants to know what to do.

heh....

good one

I had to Google Tyler Durden, but then remembered.

Yeah, you notice in Fight Club how the character played by Edward Norton went to all these different 12 step groups. One for every other night of the week. He didn't have any of these problems, just wanted to belong.

I think that's why some people hang around there (in AA). Not saying they aren't alkies, but after a while, you can say that you belong there. People are nice to you, give you phone #'s, indeed do help you alot. For many it's a family they never had, or one they forced away.

I've been to AA meetings in let's see....7 different states. And within one of those states in 2 VERY different regions.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with believing in God, and in some places, it's more understated than in others. However, when I lived in one area that was in the middle of nowhere, it was absolutley no different from going to some extreme Bible study. People who had never lived anywhere else found this totally acceptable, and they would go on and on about Jesus, and quote from the NT and everything. That really turned me off, but at that time I was still married to my ex-husband, and although I was not physically forced to go, I made my own decision to go with him because not going would end up causing a huge fight that could simmer for days. He was one of those who said, if you don't go, you'll drink. What would happen if I didn't go with him is the next time I didn't agree with him, or expressed in any way that I was having a problem with another person, no matter how minor or normal, it was because "I wasn't living the program"....oh, that's another catch phrase to get you in line.

This is where I think other people on that Bill W. thread called me bitter, because of him. No, not really, what it did do was give me the opportunity to really look at how others were interacting with each other, and realize that many of the people who go to AA, after getting their act together that is, didn't like being treated like a child any more than I did, so, as a compromise, you kept any part of your life quiet that you knew would be met with disapproval.

The fact that I went to meetings in so many different places, even though I was doing it most of the time to shut someone up, actually was a very good education, now that I think back. For instance, some places, if a couple hooks up, just for the sex, you know, if people know you're not some nut case, and are an adult who can handle it, don't say anything if they somehow realize the 2 of you are boffing. I liked that :wink:

In other places, it feels like they want to put men and women on separate sides of the room, and escort everyone to their car so they don't talk to a member of the opposite sex.

if you're so important to him that your leaving would make him drink even more, what did you do to make him drink as much as he is right now?

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I actually don't find that other people are really that important to active alcoholics. They're going to do what they're going to do, with or without you. There's a thread somewhere where Sturgis talks about this quite eloquently.

Your boyfriend is taking care of his business his way. You've got to take care of yourself. That's simply Job 1. You can't prevent him from drinking. You can't stop him from drinking more. You can't keep him from being destructive.

I'd second (third? fourth?) the recommendation to check out Al-Anon for yourself. He needs to fend for himself with this.

19 out of 30 posts on this thread seem to be ignoring
the posted topic, and shortygurl.


I hope she can practice the fine art of Leaving,
starting right here.
There must be better thread for her somewhere.

No ones ignoring shortygurl

however, how many people are supposed to say the same thing to her?

Like any conversation, it moves around. This is a school class, and thank God we're not being graded.

She'll hear what she needs to hear.

shortgurl hasn't said anything since page 1. this is our conversation now! if she comes back with more responses/information, the topic will resume to focus all on her...but it certainly isn't hurting her to continue somewhat off topic discussion on the thread in her absence

Very supportive attitude. The fact that there's a continuation of the thread's hijacking seems not to faze you much.

Nor did I see an apology to Shortygurl for the pedantic attack on her for misspelling and not meeting your standard of excellence. This person came here with a request for help. A real shame to see her not coming back.

Is anyone else here having a problem with this sort of approach ?

It's time for me to absent myself from this thread as I don't see her returning.

oaky dokey, see ya rags.

shortygurl's been at A2K for a year and a half.

I get a sense she'll take what she needs from what's offered.

Ragman, I'm not understanding your points:

1. Threads get derailed or diverted all the time; this is nothing new, and it's still somewhat on the same topic, and quite educational.

2. I went back and re-read everything and don't see a pedantic attack on her spelling and not meeting standards of excellence. Quite possibly I've still missed it, but I don't see it.

3. I've found all responses to be quite respectful to shortygurl, actually, and we don't know the reason she hasn't come back, so you can't really attribute it to any attack, can you? Quite possibly she's with the boyfriend.

Mame: in answer to your question:

"1. Hereditery is not a word"

Put yourself in the place of a relative newbie (very few posts) coming to a forum with a bunch of unfamiliar people. How does correcting someone's misspelling or typos and lecturing to them help with their problem? I just find it a problem. Perhaps rereading the early part of thread can help? I just see the tone as off-putting.

I'm apparently the exception here, so carry on.

It was actually the first of four points which he addressed to her. Not a big deal. And not enough to keep someone keen on advice away.

Exactly and if you read the link that is the support the medical community uses as classifying alcoholism as a disease - is it comparable it to diabetes.