Rosie O'Donnell, fire does melt steel

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How about the Pentegon crash? no passenger plane hit that building. No passenger plane with aluminum skin could have penetrated not 1, not 2 but 3 three foot thick steel re-inforced walls. Where were the 9 foot high jet engines, where was their impact point?

The force of a 136,000 kg airplane flying at 500mph is 9,248,000 Newtons.

This is the equivalent of a 1 ton wrecking ball travelling at 4624 mph.

You have to ignore physics to say that a plane can't penetrate concrete. Even if the plane disintegrates on impact the force STILL has to be transferred to the concrete.

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blueflame1 wrote:

parados, "What explosions? The damage was from the towers collapsing." Well there you go. Like the 911 Commission you choose to ignore testimony from eyewitnesses who not only witnessed explosions but were injured in them. One wounded worker was badly injured and dragged to safety by another worker. Their testimony has been posted here on this thread. But ignored. Explosions were heard well before the second plane hit and well before the collapse of any building. They were not soundless to the eyewitnesses but then neither you or the 911 Commission need no stinkin eyewitnesses.

Ignored? No. Discounted as not reasonable? Yes.

According to what I read. the 23rd floor was ordered evacuated at 9:30. Your witness claims it was evacuated when he got there, after 9:30 obviously. According to eye witness testimony the evacuation was not immediate but the people there spent time collecting items before evacuating. Now, your witness didn't see any of the people leaving it seems. Then your witness was traveling by stairs back to the lobby when the supposed explosion occurred. He had to clamber back up to the 8th floor and find another way down. By the time he finally got to the lobby it was destroyed but he claims neither tower had yet collapsed. The first tower collapsed at 10:03.

So lets see. Your witness has to arrive on the 23rd floor about 9:40 or later. He has to make a phone call and wait for an answer then he has to get down 15 flight of stairs, clamber back up one floor when the stair way he is in collapses, find another stairs, down 8 flights of stairs, across a destroyed lobby, and out a hole in the destroyed lobby and another block at least to escape the collapse of the first tower. All of this in 23 minutes?

Quote:

9:30 a.m. September 11, 2001: Office of Emergency Management is Evacuated

The headquarters of New York's Office of Emergency Management (OEM), which is on the 23rd floor of WTC Building 7, is evacuated. The headquarters was opened in 1999 and was specifically intended to coordinate the city's response to disasters such as terrorist attacks (see June 8, 1999). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 283-284] A senior OEM official orders the evacuation after being told by a Secret Service agent that additional commercial planes are unaccounted for (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 305] OEM personnel do not initially respond to the evacuation order with a sense of urgency. According to a 2003 report by the Mineta Transportation Institute, "They calmly collected personal belongings and began removing OEM records, but they were urged to abandon everything and leave the building quickly." [Jenkins and Edwards-Winslow, 9/2003, pp. 16] Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen will arrive at WTC 7 shortly before the collapse of the South Tower, looking for Mayor Giuliani. Learning that the OEM headquarters has been evacuated, he later claims that he thinks, "How ridiculous. We've got a thirteen-million-dollar command center and we can't even use it." [Essen, 2002, pp. 26] He says in frustration, "How can we be evacuating OEM? We really need it now." He will later tell an interviewer that he'd headed for the OEM headquarters because, "I thought that was where we should all be because that's what [it] was built for." [Fink and Mathias, 2002, pp. 230] All civilians were evacuated from WTC 7 earlier on, around the time the second WTC tower was hit (see (9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

Entity Tags: Office of Emergency Management, Secret Service, Thomas Von Essen

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline

Oh, wait. Barry Jennings and Hess didn't get out of the building until after 12:10pm. Both towers had collapsed by then.

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12:10 p.m.-12:15 p.m. September 11, 2001: Firefighters Rescue Three People Trapped in WTC 7

Most of Building 7 of the World Trade Center was evacuated around the time the South Tower was hit (see (9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001). However, firefighters find three individuals who have become trapped inside it. Among them are Barry Jennings, a City Housing Authority worker, and Mike Hess, New York's chief lawyer who is also a longtime friend of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. The two had gone up to the 23rd floor headquarters of the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management some time before 10 a.m., but found it empty. (It was evacuated at 9:30 a.m.; see 9:30 a.m. September 11, 2001.) They headed downstairs but became trapped around the sixth floor by smoke and debris that filled the staircase as a result of the North Tower collapsing at 10:28 a.m. After breaking a window and calling for help, they were spotted by firefighters outside. When the firefighters go in, they also find a security officer for one of the businesses based in the building, who is trapped on the 7th floor by the smoke in the stairway. Why this guard did not evacuate earlier, along with the rest of WTC 7, is unknown. All three men are escorted out of the building. [New York Times, 11/21/1997; Associated Press, 9/11/2001; Giuliani, 2002, pp. 20-21 and 244; Penn State Public Broadcasting, 3/1/2002; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 6/2004, pp. L-18 pdf file; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 109-110 pdf file]

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parados, but there are so many eyewitnesses to discount. No need really even to listen to what they have to say. Who knows they may be with the terrorists. The fact that they are 911 eyewitnesses automatically discounts their testimony. "NYPD Officer Heard Building 7 Bombs"
"The whole time you're hearing boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I think I know an explosion when I hear it"

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Saturday, February 10, 2007

Following our reports this week about three different ground zero rescue workers who all testified that they were told Building 7 was to be brought down, yet more revealing testimony has come to light - this time from a former NYPD officer and first responder, who states that he clearly heard bombs tear down Building 7 as he ran away from its collapse.

NYPD officer Craig Bartmer awoke on 9/11 to images of the World Trade Center burning. Knowing colleagues who worked inside the towers, he immediately headed for ground zero to help with the rescue efforts. He is now suffering from respiratory illnesses as a result of the toxic dust inhaled at the site. Bartmer was in the immediate vicinity of Building 7 before its collapse at approximately 5:20pm.

It is worthwhile to watch the entire 27 minute video interview below (conducted by Dylan Avery of Loose Change) but in the context of this article, Bartmer's comments on the subject of Building 7 alone are transcribed after the jump.

BARTMER: "I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. I didn't see any reason for that building to fall down the way it did -- and a lot of guys should be saying the same thing. I don't know what the fear is coming out and talking about it? I don't know -- but it's the truth."

[...]

BARTMER: "I walked around it (Building 7). I saw a hole. I didn't see a hole bad enough to knock a building down, though. Yeah there was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any... I didn't hear any creaking, or... I didn't hear any indication that it was going to come down. And all of a sudden the radios exploded and everyone started screaming 'get away, get away, get away from it!'... It was at that moment... I looked up, and it was nothing I would ever imagine seeing in my life. The thing started pealing in on itself... Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running, and the ****'s hitting the ground behind me, and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Yeah it had some damage to it, but nothing like what they're saying... Nothing to account for what we saw... I am shocked at the story we've heard about it to be quite honest."

Later in the film, Bartmer highlights the possibility that the attack was run from Building 7, as former German technology minister Andreas von Buelow has also postulated, and that it was then demolished to destroy the evidence.

BARTMER: "If the means and the motive are they where would they pull it off from? The Office of Emergency Management was in Building 7. That was a hardened bunker built to withstand just about anything that New York would face. That building had a lot of important **** in it and there was enough stuff in that building to bury evidence on other fronts - financial records, government records. There's no way that that just fell down on its own, I don't believe it."

Elsewhere in the interview Bartmer states his incredulity at how fast the Building 7 site was cleaned up compared to the rest of ground zero. He dismisses the 9/11 commission report as a farce and demands a new real investigation.

The criminals who perpetrated and covered up 9/11 have a growing problem on their hands in that the very heroes who led the rescue efforts are now dying as a result of the government's lie in telling them ground zero air was safe to breathe in the days after the attack.

The fact that the authorities were deceptive in the very hours and days after the event itself has led many who were there to question every other facet of the official story.

It is important to stress that everywhere we turn there are statements from firemen, NYPD officials, EMT's and others who were involved in the rescue efforts attesting to the fact that Building 7 was brought down deliberately and that bombs were heard in all three buildings. During the five year anniversary protests at ground zero, a plethora of firemen and police echoed similar sentiments but few are prepared to go on the record. However, the fact that they and many of their friends are now dying in large numbers as a result of government deception is encouraging more to come forward.

RELATED MATERIAL
boom

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OK, so how many buildings has Bartmar heard collapse before wtc7? My guess is none. So he thinks a multistory building makes a loud noise when it collapses. Big whoop. Somebody reported a gun being fired in the capitol a few years ago and it turned out to be construction noise. People assign what they want to the source of the noise. It doesn't make it so without some hard evidence to support it.

We already know he wasn't there for any explosion that would have happened in the lobby based on his testimony of when he woke up. Yet he seems to contradict the testimony that the lobby was destroyed by your other witness when he claims there wasn't a large hole. But the pictures SHOW a large hole. Makes you wonder about his testimony, doesn't it?

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"OK, so how many buildings has Bartmar heard collapse before wtc7? My guess is none." Under those circumstances maybe two. The North and South Towers. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html

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from blueflames own link re: the MEridian Plaza (Philadelphia) fire comes

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The twelve-alarm fire burned for 18 hours. The extreme heat caused window glass and frames to melt and concrete floor slabs and steel beams to buckle and sag dramatically. Large shards of window glass fell from the facade, cutting through fire hoses on the ground around the building. Three firefighters were trapped on a fully engulfed floor, and efforts to rescue them failed.

The fire would not yield and there were increasing concerns about the stability of the structure. Fire officials called off the attack and allowed the fire to "free burn," concentrating their efforts on containing the fire to this building. When the fire reached the 30th floor, a tenant-installed fire-sprinkler system was activated, and the worst high-rise fire in U.S. history was finally brought under control.

Efforts to stabilize the structure and the facade began immediately and continued for six months. Over 2,000 steel poles were installed to shore the burned-out floors and to brace the steel girders supporting the concrete slab. During the night of the fire, one granite panel had fallen from the facade of the damaged middle section and other panels were suspect. Emergency belting was installed to lash the granite to the building until it could be safely detached and lifted down. Fabric netting covered the building to prevent debris from raining down on City Hall Plaza, the heart of Philadelphia's business and tourist activity

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HMM, blueflame wants it both ways. The Meridian fire HAD caused the floor beams to buckle(which he states couldnt happen with such a lwo temp fire as two crashing jet planes loaded with fuel could provide)Also the Meridian Center was NOT hit by a plane doing 500 mph.
The fact 6that the Meridian fire disproves one of his assertions is enough for now.

With enough data blueflame, you guys will bring your own argument toppling down

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farmerman, did that building collapse after, "The twelve-alarm fire burned for 18 hours"? How many steel-framed high-rise buildings have collapsed due to fire? Any idea?

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blueflame1 wrote:

farmerman, did that building collapse after, "The twelve-alarm fire burned for 18 hours"? How many steel-framed high-rise buildings have collapsed due to fire? Any idea?

Weeeell..... how many buildings have been hit by a Boeing 767-200?

Like, ever?

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NOTICE THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD> I think Rex was trying to call attention to another of your great leader's lies that steel couldnt melt in a fuel , fueled fire.
Obviously , your "scientists for truth" only make blind assertions and they never want you to red deeper into their arguments

WELL, what have we learned. According to the link you posted, a structural fire CAN cause steel beams to sag. Your gonna have to drop that one along with the
1 fake seismic records

2 the "thermite cut beams"

3 and the presence of sulfur additive in a" thermite" mix

No matter how many links you post, if one carefully reds some of them, the seeds of doubt should be sown in your own head, unless this whole story of yours is merely a delusional pastime and you really arent interested in counter data.

Like a bunch of Evangelical "scientists" you seem to have developed a hypothesis and now you are cherry picking supportive sentences while ignoring entire chunks of blaring evidence that Steve Jones is just full of **** and has no idea what hes talking about.

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"Weeeell..... how many buildings have been hit by a Boeing 767-200?" Two? WTC 7 wasn't one of them. As for fire in the South Tower and eyewitness testimony there are tapes of the NYFD. I would not discount what firemen who were fighting the fires were saying at the time. "Fire Department Tape Reveals No Awareness of Imminent Doom
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By KEVIN FLYNN and JIM DWYER (NYT) 787 words
Late Edition - Final , Section B , Page 4 , Column 1
ABSTRACT - Officials release 78-minute audiotape of firefighters coping with catastrophe in damaged south tower of World Trade Center on Sept 11, only known audiotape of firefighters at scene; nowhere on tape is there any indication that firefighters had slightest indication that tower had become unstable or could fall; excerpts (M) The voices, captured on a tape of Fire Department radio transmissions, betray no fear. The words are matter-of-fact.

Two hose lines are needed, Chief Orio Palmer says from an upper floor of the badly damaged south tower at the World Trade Center. Just two hose lines to attack two isolated pockets of fire. ''We should be able to knock it down with two lines,'' he tells the firefighters of Ladder Company 15 who were following him up the stairs of the doomed tower." link

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I like the way blueflame dances around the TOPIC HEADING of this thread , all the while with pie on his face. Very Happy

SEEMS that the MEridian Fire states that Fire can indeed soften steel (nobody said melt). With the addition of the high speed impact (M *v*v) of a jet plane all fueled up and we have a unique situation that has at least been shown to have one of the claims of the 9-11 commission to be spot on.

Now we can address the different problem of WTC-7. We have an "earwitness" sho claims to have heard explosions. And yet hes never heard a building drop before. So could it not be that the "explosions" were really the snapping of structural members? Why are you so quick to endorse the "explosives " theory without ANY evidence to consider or compare against?
The burden of proof is on the earwitness since he made a claim.

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Debunkers Use Ludicrous Freeway Comparison To Attack 9/11 Truth
Desperation evident as thin rebars impacted by gasoline firestorm compared to twin tower's thick steel beams and concrete core

Paul Joseph Watson / Prison Planet | May 1, 2007

Debunkers have again betrayed their desperation by citing the partial collapse of a freeway bridge in San Francisco to claim that the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center towers and Building 7 has been discredited. In reality, the comparison is ludicrous and wildly inaccurate.

Nationally syndicated radio host Neil Boortz and other Neo-Con talking heads immediately seized on the bridge collapse in unison as part of a coordinated attack on the 9/11 Truth Movement.

Even mainstream science and technology websites jumped on the bandwagon, "When the I-580 overpass buckled, it brought back memories of the World Trade Center," reported Wired News.

Such bold assertions were notably absent when the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid was gutted by intense fires for 28 hours but did not collapse in February 2005.

The frenzy was particularly evident at Fark.com, with posters reveling in the notion that the freeway accident had made "WTC conspiracy theories collapse as quickly as that highway did." Farkers, who judging from the website spend most of their time discussing hookers, obese lesbians and lauding a "semi-hot female coach getting it on with an underage female student," attacked 9/11 truthers for their lack of scientific credentials.

So in response to the numerous naysayers desperately clamoring for anything to stop the wild runaway popularity and growing credibility of the 9/11 Truth Movement, we talked to a physicist and a steel welding expert about the freeway collapse and why it is completely outlandish to compare it with the fall of Building 7 and the towers.
link

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farmerman wrote:

HMM, blueflame wants it both ways. The Meridian fire HAD caused the floor beams to buckle(which he states couldnt happen with such a lwo temp fire as two crashing jet planes loaded with fuel could provide)

Good find, farmerman!

Here's a bit more about the One Meridian Plaza fire from the link blueflame provided:

Quote:

The building frame is structural steel with concrete floors poured over metal decks. All structural steel and floor assemblies were protected with spray-on fireproofing material. The exterior of the building was covered by granite curtain wall panels with glass windows attached to the perimeter floor girders and spandrels.

[...]

Structural Conditions Observed

Prior to deciding to evacuate the building, firefighters noticed significant structural displacement occurring in the stair enclosures. A command officer indicated that cracks large enough to place a man's fist through developed at one point. One of the granite exterior wall panels on the east stair enclosure was dislodged by the thermal expansion of the steel framing behind it. After the fire, there was evident significant structural damage to horizontal steel members and floor sections on most of the fire damaged floors. Beams and girders sagged and twisted -- some as much as three feet --under severe fire exposures, and fissures developed in the reinforced concrete floor assemblies in many places.

So, blueflame.... you've claimed again and again that the materials found in an office building would not be sufficient to fuel a fire that would cause steel to loose its structural integrity.

Yet here, you provided a link to a source that says that burning office material alone fueled a fire that was strong enough to cause fireproofed structural steel to sag and a building that had not been hit by a plane to loose its structural integrity.

Do you wish to ignore that, or do you have an opinion on that?

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Ill bet he changes the subject.

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farmerman wrote:

Ill bet he changes the subject.

"The Little 9/11 Truth Handbook" describes Changing The Subject as standard procedure, should mere facts get in the way of an otherwise mighty convincing conspiracy theory....

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That entire Meridian One Fire, convincingly undermines these conspiracy clowns biggest argument. I would like to hear the usualbunch walk around the evidence that such a fire dan and did cause the structural beams to sag (not reinforcing bar, but structural beams that were fireproofed) I think the comparison between Meridian and WTC can be made, and then add to the WTC the fact that there was a structural assauklt by a jet plane that crashed deeply into the building.

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old europe, did that building collapse after 18 hours of fire? How many minutes did the fires in WTC burn? The tapes of NYFD at the South Tower say this, "Two hose lines are needed, Chief Orio Palmer says from an upper floor of the badly damaged south tower at the World Trade Center. Just two hose lines to attack two isolated pockets of fire. ''We should be able to knock it down with two lines,'' he tells the firefighters of Ladder Company 15 who were following him up the stairs of the doomed tower." Not exactly a raging inferno.

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blueflame is now stretching. HE soooo wants not to be wrong because hes got so much time and effort invested in collecting these conspiracy links that hed take a major body blow if one of his key pieses of "truth" were in doubt.

Blueflame, weve cast doubt on your foundation argument and now all your doing is arguing duration. I was briefly at the Meridian area during that fire and it was nowhere near the intensity of the WTC blazes and , of course, old europe has kindly reminded you that Meridian was NOT hit by an airplane to compound the assault. Meridian was constructed in a different fashion than WTC. WTC used a series of metal "tubes" whereas Meridian was still the P&B type of stick framing where the beams were actually more massive.

Im wondering about the psychology of becoming a conspiracy theorist. Do you guys all have major doubts of anything that smacks of "officialdom"? So many really competent engineers and scientists have reviewed the data and actually inspected the rubble that I wonder how Steve Jones can even compare(since hes never been part of the review teams) Was he somehow overlooked by NYC and this is his way of "getting even'? .

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farmerman, in your mind you've cast doubt. You seem to need that rather than calling for new investigations that would include scientists from all sides. FEMA's investigations of 911 concluded that the government's theory had only a low probability of being true. FEMA said further investigations are needed. Obviously. Comparing the 2 fires is not making a fair assessment. ""What struck us - guys like Warren Jennings and myself, who have spent basically all our lives in the scrap business - we'd never seen steel this heavy, this huge, this massive. It was just unbelievable."

~ Michael Henderson (p. 93),
General Manager, Marine Terminals, Metal Management NE"
What did FEMA say about the Meridian fire? Do you even care? "First, no steel-framed skyscraper, even engulfed in flames hour after hour, had ever collapsed before. Suddenly, three stunning collapses occur within a few city blocks on the same day, two allegedly hit by aircraft, the third not. These extraordinary collapses after short-duration minor fires made it all the more important to preserve the evidence, mostly steel girders, to study what had happened. On fire intensity, consider this benchmark: A 1991 FEMA report on Philadelphia's Meridian Plaza fire said that the fire was so energetic that "eams and girders sagged and twisted," but "[d]espite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage" (quoted by Griffin, p. 15). Such an intense fire with consequent sagging and twisting steel beams bears no resemblance to what we observed at the WTC." link

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Of course you fail to mention that WTC7 was hit by falling debris from the 2 towers and sustained quite a bit of structural damage before it collapsed.

WTC7 wasn't brought down by fire alone as you keep saying.

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Rosie O'Donnell, fire does melt steel

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