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Who Is Buried in Bush's Speech?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 01:03 pm
Quote:
Sofia wrote:


I'm not saying we should go off half-cocked at every whisper that floats across a President's desk--but what Bush said, IMO, was accurate. "British sources have said..." Misleading, yes. A lie, no.


Where we differ in our opinion is that all of the US intelligence information said the yellow cake information was unreliable, but GWBush included that information anyway. Under those circumstances, it becomes a lie, because he failed to reconfirm the information again and again to justify this information. It wasn't "misleading," as you say when he had intelligence at home to prove otherwise. If he had confirmed that the British intelligence was accurate, and reconfirmed by our intelligence, that's another story, but that's not the case here. c.i.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 01:17 pm
Please don't do everything the BigDog says! You'll all have the clap!
Laughing (kidding)

CI--US didn't have intel that it was categorically untrue, but that it was very shaky. I think this is the big difference. (To me, anyway.) If US intel had told him, "We know this to be false" then I would agree completely with you. Bush believed it was true, I think, and even though intel was very shaky, that didn't dissuade his belief, and din't dissuade him from wanting the nation and the world to hear it.

He would have been better to say outright, that it hadn't been proven, but he didn't say it had been. It was a dodge. I just think not a bad dodge--but I'm sure if I felt about the war as you and some others do--I would feel quite differently about it.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 05:32 pm
Trouble is, this is only one of many, many dodges. This guy is a blatant liar and dangerous to one and all.

When Clinton said he didn't have sex with that girl - it too was not a lie but a dodge. I accept it as a big deception; something Bushites can not do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It as all boils down to what the meaning of is, is - and if the lie is about the penis or a pre-emptive war.

One is a lie about the meaning of sex, the other TREASON.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 05:53 pm
To use "very shaky" info to justify war is criminal. c.i.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 07:46 pm
sofia is quite correct to toss Clinton's statements into the mix. But we ought to acknowledge that there is a matter of protocol here which is entirely relevant, and it is that past Presidents do not speak against sitting Presidents.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 07:49 pm
Especially live ones. c.i.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 07:49 pm
I don't think Clinton would have lied to agree with Bush. I think he would've side-stepped. Carter hasn't had any problem criticising Bush.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 07:55 pm
sofia

That's a clear case where the protocol has not held, but I think it's exceptional....I can't recall another such. Normally statements are supportive. I don't bring this up to suggest we ought to entirely discount what Clinton said, but rather to acknowledge this salient aspect.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 07:58 pm
I do not think Clinton "supported" Bush exept in the "give him a break" about the 16 words.

The 16 words are not the issue and i think Clinton was tryig to make that point (about selecting teh right targets, the 16 have served their purpose).
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 08:00 pm
I characterize it as support in contrast to calls for impeachment.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 08:09 pm
Listen, we all know bush is a loser but we'd be idiots to think the problems he's failed to address all began in and will end with his administration. He's simply the cynical heir who's made use of the mess.

The problem of intelligence being politicized was most certainly present in the bush and reagan admins -- we know that, have proof, etc. -- and most likely way before then Kissinger's presence in the Nixon admin virtually guarantees the same process.

Clinton's administration can't be exempted, even though it wasn't a problem he nourished and took advantage of as the bushies did. I betcha he doesn't want to risk being targeted. He's been treated scurrilously and I wouldn't blame him for keeping his counsel. Whereas I think Carter has done just the right thing and should be the one to do it since his integrity is known and visible and respected on all sides.

Sofia won't like this, but the weight of corruption lies most heavily on the Republicans AND they're in power now AND they have shown themselves to be unscrupulous in the extreme. Eventually it will all come out, but no Dem should feel s/he has to be a martyr in this.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 08:39 pm
Just a little reminder on how long it can take for us to find out just what dicks these dicks can be
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/27/national/27WATE.html
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 09:00 pm
Oh. Huh. The integrity, the sheer patriotism of Nixon's aides...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 10:38 pm
Tartarin

I confess that Jeb ain't at the top of my list labelled "Really Cool Americans", but I posted it as a reminder that evidence and proofs of the nasties we suspect can be tardy in rising bloated to the surface, if they rise at all.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 11:31 pm
Sofia wrote:
I characterize it as support in contrast to calls for impeachment.


IMO because the calls for impeachment are politically unwise. I think Clinton is trying to steer the Dems from a couple of possible sand traps.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 08:10 am
Got it, Blatham! (My response was simply a cynical sigh.) It's also interesting that it's coming out now.

I agree with Craven about the calls for impeachment. Not sure what Clinton's role is here, but the Bush administration was born of the extreme anger of the Right, dating back to Nixon or further. To impeach Bush is to feed that anger. Not that they would be satisfied by a political defeat, god knows, but they would tend to be less cohesive in their reaction. We're not just suffering from Bush. We're teetering on the edge of a new world ruled by radical reactionaries -- a species of dinosaur which modern "scientists" like Wolfowitz and Perle and even Rove -- use to their own ends. I'd give a lot for a look inside the addled pate of Papa Bush who may be suffering from the horrors of all this just as much as we are.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 08:43 am
Yes, I think impeachment might be politically dangerous and that may well be in Clinton's mind here. Still, I'm not entirely certain. The right - the active and influential machinery of the new right - has already been effectively radicalized and is organized to a degree which we could envy (if it weren't so socially pathological). So, if the concern is getting them frothing at mouth mad or more focused, we are already there in spades. Rove (et al) will continue at his task of pulling traditional dem voters over (eg, gestures of the empty sort in Africa and Israel/Palestine) and will continue to use the courts and bean counter practicalities (Davis, redistricting) to increase votes and seats, and will continue to manipulate - and attempt ownership and control of - mass media. The next six months could go god knows where.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 12:48 pm
A massive suspension of elections and the Constitution is not beyond my expectations of this regime!

Sad but true. With the control on Congress, the Supreme Court and the fourth estate it may actually work.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 09:25 pm
The following was written by John Dean (more at link below)
Quote:
The heart of President Bush's January 28 State of the Union address was his case for going to war against Saddam Hussein. In making his case, the president laid out fact after fact about Saddam's alleged unconventional weapons. Indeed, the claim that these weapons of mass destruction (WMD) posed an imminent threat was his primary argument in favor of war.

Now, as more and more time passes with WMD still not found, it seems that some of those facts may not have been true. In particular, recent controversy has focused on the president's citations of British intelligence purportedly showing that Saddam was seeking "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

In this column, I will examine the publicly available evidence relating to this and other statements in the State of the Union concerning Saddam's WMD. Obviously I do not have access to the classified information the president doubtlessly relied upon. But much of the relevant information he drew from appears to have been declassified and made available for inquiring minds.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8436
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 09:27 pm
It occurs to me that I might have linked this previously. If I did, please forgive me and mail me any medications you might be planning to toss out.
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