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Who Is Buried in Bush's Speech?

 
 
Ethel2
 
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 09:39 pm
Here's a timely topic which I feel requires a discussion. Here we go.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2085612/


Who Is Buried in Bush's Speech?
The truth has been shot! Round up some unusual suspects.
By Michael Kinsley
Posted Monday, July 14, 2003, at 3:53 PM PT


Once again a mysterious criminal stalks the nation's capital. First there was the mystery sniper. Then there was the mystery arsonist. Now there is the mystery ventriloquist. The media are in a frenzy of speculation and leakage. Senators are calling for hearings. All of Washington demands an answer: Who was the arch-fiend who told a lie in President Bush's State of the Union speech? No investigation has plumbed such depths of the unknown since O.J. Simpson's hunt for the real killer of his ex-wife. (Whatever happened to that, by the way?)


Whodunit? Was it Col. Mustard in the kitchen with a candlestick? Condoleezza Rice in the Situation Room with a bottle of wite-out and a felt-tipped pen?

Linguists note that the question, "Who lied in George Bush's State of the Union speech" bears a certain resemblance to the famous conundrum, "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?" They speculate that the two questions may have parallel answers. But philosophers are still struggling to properly analyze the Grant's Tomb issue, let alone answer it. And experts say that even when this famous 19th-century presidential puzzle is solved, it could be many years before the findings can be applied with any confidence to presidents of more recent vintage.

Lacking a real-life analogy that sufficiently captures the complexity of the speech-gate puzzle and the challenge facing investigators dedicated to solving it, political scientists say the best comparison may be to the assassination of Maj. Strasser in the film Casablanca. If you recall, Humphrey Bogart is standing over the body, holding a smoking gun. Claude Rains says: "Maj. Strasser has been shot! Round up the usual suspects." And yet the mystery of who killed the major is never solved.

Ever since Watergate, a "smoking gun" has been the standard for judging any Washington scandal. Many a miscreant has escaped with his reputation undamaged, or even enhanced by the publicity and pseudovindication because there was no "smoking gun" like the Watergate tapes. But now it seems that the standard has been lifted. You would think that on the question of who told a lie in a speech, evidence seen on television by millions of people around the world might count for something. Apparently not. The Bush administration borrows from Groucho: "Who are you going to believe, us or your own two eyes?

The case for the defense is a classic illustration of what lawyers call "arguing in the alternative." The Bushies say: 1) It wasn't really a lie; 2) someone else told the lie; and 3) the lie doesn't matter. All these defenses are invalid.

1) Bushies fanned out to the weekend talk shows to note, as if with one voice, that what Bush said was technically accurate. But it was not accurate, even technically. The words in question were: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Bush didn't say it was true, you see, he just said the Brits said it. This is a contemptible argument in any event. But to descend to the administration's level of nitpickery, the argument simply doesn't work. Bush didn't say that the Brits "said" this Africa business, he said they "learned" it. The difference between "said" and "learned" is that "learned" clearly means there is some pre-existing basis for believing whatever it is, apart from the fact that someone said it. Is it theoretically possible to "learn" something that is not true? I'm not sure (as Donald Rumsfeld would say). However, it certainly is not possible to say that someone has "learned" a piece of information without clearly intending to imply that you, the speaker, wish the listener to accept it as true. Bush expressed no skepticism or doubt, even though the Brits qualification was only added as protection because doubts had been expressed internally.

2) The Bush argument blaming the CIA for failing to remove this falsehood from the president's speech is based on the logic of "stop me before I lie again." Bush spoke the words, his staff wrote them, those involved carefully overlooked reasons for skepticism. It would have been nice if the CIA had caught this falsehood, but its failure to do so hardly exonerates others. Furthermore, the CIA is part of the executive branch, as is the White House staff. If the president, especially this president, can disown anything he says that he didn't actually find out or think up and write down all by himself, he is more or less beyond criticism. Which seems to be the idea here.

The president says he has not lost his confidence in CIA Director George Tenet. How sweet. If someone backed me up in a lie and then took the fall for me when it was exposed, I'd have confidence in him too.

3) The final argument: It was only 16 words! What's the big deal? The bulk of the case for war remains intact. Logically, of course, this argument will work for any single thread of the pro-war argument. Perhaps the president will tell us which particular points among those he and his administration have made are the ones we are supposed to take seriously. Or how many gimmes he feels entitled to take in the course of this game. Is it a matter of word count? When he hits 100 words, say, are we entitled to assume that he cares whether the words are true?
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 10:43 pm
How quickly they forget, the GOP that is, remember Water Gate. it was not the actual break in but the cover up.

These folks seem to think they are entitled to a secret government.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 10:54 pm
Hi, Lola. Thanks for the invitation. Why do I feel I am to featured on the menu? Very Happy

A couple of days ago, I washed dishes in the kitchen, and listened to Tony Blair, as he was grilled on this subject.

He said, in part--
1) I receive intelligence all the time, from people our country trusts to gather it.
2) Though dossiers containing the same information we've recieved have been highly questioned, and though the US has chosen to publicly back away from the intel on Niger--does not change the fact that my govt's sources did, in fact, produce intelligence that the facts contained in the dossier, and with respect to the Niger/uranium attempt were accurate.

I think it would be easier for Tony to do a Bush--step away from it, citing shakey sources. I think he recieved the intel, and won't say otherwise. I think it was shared with Bush--

What happened after that, who knows?

But, the remark--
The words in question were: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Bush didn't say it was true, you see, he just said the Brits said it.

--is backed up by the Prime Minister. He says, "Yeah. That's right. We said this."

So, it wasn't a lie.

I haven't followed the story further. Did Bush ask the CIA to confirm it before he approved it for the speech? It was in, it was out... I'll listen to others' analysis of events.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:01 pm
This president thinks he can do several things and get away with it. The first is the lies. We all know this administration claimed they "knew" where Saddam's WMD's were hidden. It was repeated too many times for anybody not to notice. They wanted the world to react to the 'urgency' of those WMD's, because they were capable of using it against us within 48 hours, even as the UN inspectors were doing their jobs to investigate the claim that Iraq had no WMDs. Another lie. GWBush told the world in his SOTU speech that Saddam purchased nuclear material from Africa. Another lie. This administration also said Saddam had ties with Al Qaida. Another lie. By this time, their noses are so long, anything more they say should be evidence of more lies. Last weekend, GWBush said this issue is now closed. ha, ha, ha..... he evidently doesn't understand politics too well, either. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:04 pm
ci-- Bush said the British govt learned that Saddam purchased...

The British govt says this is correct.

Not a lie--at least on Bush's part.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:11 pm
Bush didn't lie. He said the Brits said that "Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

The claim that Saddam Hussein sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa has turned out to be a farce.

What Bush and his administration, as well as Blair and his ministry, are guilty of is incompetence.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:23 pm
Lola's topic sent me off reading. I checked out Benjamin Healy's Sixteen Little Words at Slate--you can access easily from Lola's link--

Or, you can read this:

Bush faced dwindling nuclear data The rest of the article.

I will be following this discussion, and the story.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:29 pm
Sofia and Infra, I must disagree with your conclusions that GWBush did not lie. When a president uses any information that is used to justify a war, it must be fact and not hearsay. A president has the responsibility to make doubly sure of the facts before he uses any information in a speech to the world for the reasons he uses to justify a war that will get thousands killed and billions spent. He said, she said, kind of information does not belong in a president's speech to the world. It's not Tenet's responsbility to editorialize the president's speech. That responsbility belongs to the president, the speech writers, and his administration. We have learned that the president and his staff knew the intelligence on the uranium sale from Africa was unreliable BEFORE THE SPEECH WAS WRITTEN. They should have used THAT information, and not depend on the Brits or anybody else to include dubious information in a president's speech. It was known before the speech that the documents that were used by the Brits were fraudulent. They are certainly guilty of incompetence, but they are also guilty of lying to the world. The result of those lies got thousands of Iraqi's killed (over three thousand innocent civilians and untold thousands of military), and billions of our tax dollars spent at a time when the US could have used that money for better purpose. It is also getting Americans killed for what purpose? Why is it that other nations are not helping the US with the security of Iraq? If you know the answers to these questions, you might change my mind. c.i.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:31 pm
sophia...yes, that's getting to it

also... http://www.sundayherald.com/print35264
0 Replies
 
LibertyD
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:31 pm
From what I've heard so far, the Bush administration knew long before the State of the Union that the information regarding Saddam trying to get materials from Africa was questionable -- and I think that's why he specifically named the British intelligence in the speach. Here is a bit of an interview with Donald Rumsfeld by Tim Russert this weekend to prove this:

"SEC’Y RUMSFELD: In retrospect, the president would not have said it and I would not have said it, but the idea that that has any central role in the intelligence community’s assessment of what was going on in Iraq would be a misunderstanding.
MR. RUSSERT: Well, the president was going to utter those words in October and George Tenet interceded and took them out. The State Department stopped doing it in December because they felt it was important. Negroponte, the ambassador to the U.N. took it out...
SEC’Y RUMSFELD: Right.
MR. RUSSERT: ...Colin Powell wouldn’t repeat it in February.
SEC’Y RUMSFELD: Right."

Here's the entire interview:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/938330.asp

On the issue of everyone blaming everyone else, Rumsfeld makes an interesting excuse about why he stated that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger right after the State of the Union:

"MR. RUSSERT: But the very next day, Mr. Secretary, this is what you said, talking to the press on January 29th: ”[Saddam’s] regime has the design for a nuclear weapon ... and recently was discovered seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
SEC’Y RUMSFELD: And right before it, I said, as the president said, and right after it, I said as the president said. I was simply repeating what the president had said.
MR. RUSSERT: But in retrospect, you should retract that comment as well just as the president has retracted his.
SEC’Y RUMSFELD: Exactly. And certainly when I said, “As the president said” in my statement and at the end I said, “As the president indicated,” I believe and that’s quite true."

So we have Bush blaming the CIA for his lie, and Rumsfeld blaming the President for his lie...what a farce.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:36 pm
I think if they believed it to be true, it was a grievous error, instead of a lie.

If I repeated it, believeing it to be true, I wouldn't be a liar. I'd just be wrong.

Of course, considering the ramifications--that is a minor point.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:40 pm
Sofia,

do you think Bush's insistence that he had not yet made up his mind about the war was true at any point?

Before you respond please note that I have not tooted the "lie" horn until now.
0 Replies
 
maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:44 pm
Quote:
Sofia and Infra, I must disagree with your conclusions that GWBush did not lie. When a president uses any information that is used to justify a war, it must be fact and not hearsay


How many sources to corroborate, ci?
2?
3?
more?
Your textbook definition of war justification is fine for the peanut gallery and the monday morning quarterback contingent, but sorry, I don't think real life works that way.

The term "lie" slips off of the tongue so easily by so many in relation to the discussion of this topic as to lose all semblance of it's original intent.

Sofia gets it.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:47 pm
I did believe it, because Bush/Rummy/Powell/Blair said to the world if Saddam would pack it in, we would bring our guys home.

There were all manners of offers for Saddam--and the world was watching. I believe if Saddam had relocated, Bush couldn't have gone forward.

Did I think at any time Saddam was going to take the offer? Very briefly for a day or two.

My honest opinion, at this point, is that Bush et al were convinced that Saddam had WMD and related capabilities. They FELT they had enough intel to go ahead--but as it started getting flimsy, they put their gut before HARD, PROVABLE facts, and tiptoed just this side of lies to present their case. I hope this is proven to be wrong.

For me--to take the country to war--I'd want unadulterated proof. I withhold judgement against the administration until all the facts come out.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:48 pm
For goodness sake. On another thread, Kuv posted links to the White House site and a page showing photographs of Bush going over the speech with the writers and giving tips on content and style (so labeled under the photos)

Kinsley has it here better than anyone else writing about the matter. The administration can't be honest and say "Yeah, he lied through his teeth because that was good political strategy at the time." So look at the consequence of the spin they cornered themselves with...."Your president is not really responsible for what comes out of his mouth when he speaks." That's almost believable, and only because of the low expectation of the man's mind and competence.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:54 pm
Blatham--Britain never backtracked their assertion. That assertion is what this is regarding. You act as though the Brits didn't enter into it. Bush didn't fabricate it.

Its not entirely defensible--but its not a Bush fabrication, either.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:54 pm
Sofia wrote:
I did believe it, because Bush/Rummy/Powell/Blair said to the world if Saddam would pack it in, we would bring our guys home.

There were all manners of offers for Saddam--and the world was watching. I believe if Saddam had relocated, Bush couldn't have gone forward.


Sofia that is completely false. The statements to the effect that if Saddam and his sons left there would be no war were carefully explained by many in the Bush administration to have meant that they believed that if Saddam left there would be no war, not that the invasion would be called off.

The belief was that without Saddam nobody would put up a fight.

Nowehere did they say that if he left there would not be an invasion and in fact they made painfully clear that there would be, even if he left. The "no war" line was very carefully explained to have meant the degree of resistance the invasion would encounter.

Today yourself and timber have made this assertion. Once again I'm amazed at very famous quotes being forgotten (I still remember timber saying that Bush never said "with us or against us").

Ain't nobody gonna let you get away with that kind of amnesia. There are countless quotes in whihc the Bush administration refutes your argument.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2003 11:59 pm
I remember several times in the run up to the war, reporters pinning Rummy/Bush et al down--
"The decision's already been made"
"Nobody believes there's any chance to stop war"

And I remember each of them saying, Powell, as well, --"Certainly the war can be stopped. Saddam Hussein can stop it by leaving Iraq."

It was said often, and by many.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2003 12:03 am
But, it was also reported that we would enter and disarm of WMDs.

War = Disarm ?

Semantics?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2003 12:03 am
more fun for george and truth-telling... http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56336-2003Jul14?language=printer
0 Replies
 
 

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