1
   

Confidence in your beliefs.

 
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 10:38 pm
kate4christ03 wrote:
neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.


Quote:
God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 10:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Coolwhip, You bring up an interesting topic; god's education. If there was "nothingness" before he created the universe, where did he get his "education?"

Good question. Morality is meaningless if there are no other beings who may be hurt by your actions.

And how could God have had any knowledge of evil before he created it?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 11:03 am
Terry wrote:
kate4christ03 wrote:
neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.


Quote:
God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?
I have often contended that non believers have no need to invent straw men when they are provided in such abundance by 'believers'.
One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 11:04 am
Terry wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Coolwhip, You bring up an interesting topic; god's education. If there was "nothingness" before he created the universe, where did he get his "education?"

Good question. Morality is meaningless if there are no other beings who may be hurt by your actions.

And how could God have had any knowledge of evil before he created it?
Because he did not create it.
0 Replies
 
kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 11:48 am
Quote:
One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

neo, while i agree that its garbage to blame all evil on God, the bible says God knew all before he created. It says that he preordained Jesus to die bf he even created adam and eve. He knew they would sin before they were created. do you disagree with this?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 03:04 pm
kate4christ03 wrote:
Quote:
One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

neo, while i agree that its garbage to blame all evil on God, the bible says God knew all before he created. It says that he preordained Jesus to die bf he even created adam and eve. He knew they would sin before they were created. do you disagree with this?
Show citations.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 07:25 pm
neologist wrote:
Terry wrote:
kate4christ03 wrote:
neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.


Quote:
God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?
I have often contended that non believers have no need to invent straw men when they are provided in such abundance by 'believers'.
You are seeing strawmen in your dreams neo.

neologist wrote:
One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.
The majority of the material in that particular perceived strawman is your own contribution.
neologist wrote:
As has been explained before:

Slavery and other human miseries came upon mankind as a result of the Edenic rebellion.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2732674&highlight=edenic+rebellion#2732674

The fact that Adam and Eve were doomed to fail comes directly from the story itself. They had no knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit. Without faculties of determining right from wrong, failure to obey was the only possible outcome.


neologist wrote:
If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

I doubt that you have any better insight into the thought processes of a god than I do, so all that we have to evaluate in that regard is the human way (according to the Bible we were created in God's image anyhoo). Have you ever tried to NOT know something that you DO know? Have you ever tried to NOT think about something? Tonight when you lay your head on your pillow try NOT to think about where you park your tongue while you sleep. When you see someone yawn, try NOT to think about yawning and try NOT to yawn yourself.
0 Replies
 
kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 07:55 pm
neo i already did...pg 38 (1peter 1:20)
0 Replies
 
kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 08:03 pm
Terry wrote:

Quote:
Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?

your getting foreknowledge and predestination mixed up. God in his foreknowledge knew that men would fall (on their own) He didn't make or prescribe for them to fall. and he never changed his mind after creating man and sent his son. He pre ordained Christ to die bf he even made man or earth.(1 peter 1:20)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 09:47 pm
kate4christ03 wrote:
neo i already did...pg 38 (1peter 1:20)
1Peter 1:20:
"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"

I suppose you will also offer:
Ephesians 1:4
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

No doubt a few more. . .

But did you ever consider what is being referred to by the world?

As compared to the earth, for example?

I might ask who is the "god of this world"?

What would you say?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:03 pm
mesquite wrote:
neologist wrote:
Terry wrote:
kate4christ03 wrote:
neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.


Quote:
God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?
I have often contended that non believers have no need to invent straw men when they are provided in such abundance by 'believers'.
You are seeing strawmen in your dreams neo.
neologist wrote:
One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.
The majority of the material in that particular perceived strawman is your own contribution.
So you haven't been reading Kate's' posts. . . Or, for that matter, Terry's complaint about foreknowledge. And I suppose your own contention that Adam and Eve were set up does not fall into the same category. You should read what you yourself post.
mesquite wrote:
neologist wrote:
As has been explained before:

Slavery and other human miseries came upon mankind as a result of the Edenic rebellion.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2732674&highlight=edenic+rebellion#2732674

The fact that Adam and Eve were doomed to fail comes directly from the story itself. They had no knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit. Without faculties of determining right from wrong, failure to obey was the only possible outcome.
It was the tree of knowledge of 'good and bad'. The conscience to guide them as to what was right and what was wrong was already there. Or have you never heard of someone doing something wrong just because it seemed 'good'?
mesquite wrote:


neologist wrote:
If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

I doubt that you have any better insight into the thought processes of a god than I do, so all that we have to evaluate in that regard is the human way (according to the Bible we were created in God's image anyhoo). Have you ever tried to NOT know something that you DO know? Have you ever tried to NOT think about something? Tonight when you lay your head on your pillow try NOT to think about where you park your tongue while you sleep. When you see someone yawn, try NOT to think about yawning and try NOT to yawn yourself.
Do you skip right to the end of the mystery novel or do you allow yourself the suspense of reading the Cliff Notes?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:05 pm
neologist wrote:
If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.

Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:07 pm
kate4christ03 wrote:
God in his foreknowledge knew that men would fall (on their own) He didn't make or prescribe for them to fall.

You can't have it both ways either, kate.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:18 pm
echi wrote:
neologist wrote:
If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.

Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways.
I certainly can't tell you what went on in the mind of God when he created us. There are a few clues, however.

One is he offers us choice. He could not honestly do so, if he knew our moral outcome.

Additionally, the bible assigns God the quality of love. Do you find the contention that God knew human misery in advance to be in harmony with the quality of love?

I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.

I can't understand why it seems such a difficult concept to grasp that God is not bound by any necessity, including necessary foreknowledge.

How else could free will be possible?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 11:22 pm
neologist wrote:
echi wrote:
neologist wrote:
If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.

Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways.
I certainly can't tell you what went on in the mind of God when he created us. There are a few clues, however.

One is he offers us choice. He could not honestly do so, if he knew our moral outcome.
Agreed. Razz
Quote:
Additionally, the bible assigns God the quality of love. Do you find the contention that God knew human misery in advance to be in harmony with the quality of love?
Obviously not.
Quote:
I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.
Your god can even defy logic! Is there anything he can't do?
Quote:
I can't understand why it seems such a difficult concept to grasp that God is not bound by any necessity, including necessary foreknowledge.

How else could free will be possible?
Now that's a good question!
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 01:21 am
echi wrote:
kate4christ03 wrote:
God in his foreknowledge knew that men would fall (on their own) He didn't make or prescribe for them to fall.

You can't have it both ways either, kate.


The notion of "falling" is a interesting one in itself. Personally it feels that the world is mor and more moving away from old world philosophy and that motion is not downward. The idea that we are falling is only created when groups like christians etc change the coordinate frame. What was left is now down, so if we are "falling" it's only cause the Christians are turning the world on it's side.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 03:37 am
echi wrote:

Quote:
I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.
Your god can even defy logic! Is there anything he can't do?


Smile

Believing in the christian God was so simple just a few hundred years back, all you had to do was follow the flock. Nowadays christians have to rationalize every single letter in the bible. Oh yes, it was truly easier in the good 'ol days.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 08:52 am
It was easier in the good ole days, because the majority didn't know how to read, and they believed what the preacher told them There was no "science" to get in the way.
0 Replies
 
kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 12:24 pm
neologist wrote:
Quote:
One is he offers us choice. He could not honestly do so, if he knew our moral outcome.

Additionally, the bible assigns God the quality of love. Do you find the contention that God knew human misery in advance to be in harmony with the quality of love?

I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.

I can't understand why it seems such a difficult concept to grasp that God is not bound by any necessity, including necessary foreknowledge.

neo you totally disregarded the verse i gave. it says he preordained Christ to die for our sins bf he even created the earth. He knew. You might as well throw 2/3's of the bible out bc God gave countless prophecies on events such as punishment for the jews, Christ and the endtimes, and if he didn't know the future then he is a liar.

echi wrote:

Quote:
Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways

echi foreknowledge and predestination (as i stated earlier) are two different things. The bible shows us that God knew all before he created us, but he still gave freewill. This doesnt make us mindless robots subject to his whims, it just means that he is omniscient.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 12:28 pm
kate4christ03 wrote:
neo you totally disregarded the verse i gave. it says he preordained Christ to die for our sins bf he even created the earth. He knew. . . . foreknowledge and predestination (as i stated earlier) are two different things. The bible shows us that God knew all before he created us, but he still gave freewill. This doesnt make us mindless robots subject to his whims, it just means that he is omniscient.
The operative word in 1Peter is 'world', not 'earth'. The scriptures do not treat them as synonyms. See my post above and tell me if you would care to:

Who is the god of this world?
0 Replies
 
 

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