Confidence in your beliefs.

neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Coolwhip, You bring up an interesting topic; god's education. If there was "nothingness" before he created the universe, where did he get his "education?"

kate4christ03 wrote:

neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.

Quote:

God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Coolwhip, You bring up an interesting topic; god's education. If there was "nothingness" before he created the universe, where did he get his "education?"

Good question. Morality is meaningless if there are no other beings who may be hurt by your actions.

And how could God have had any knowledge of evil before he created it?

One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

Quote:

One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

neo, while i agree that its garbage to blame all evil on God, the bible says God knew all before he created. It says that he preordained Jesus to die bf he even created adam and eve. He knew they would sin before they were created. do you disagree with this?

Terry wrote:

kate4christ03 wrote:

neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.

Quote:

God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?

I have often contended that non believers have no need to invent straw men when they are provided in such abundance by 'believers'.

One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

As has been explained before:

Slavery and other human miseries came upon mankind as a result of the Edenic rebellion.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2732674&highlight=edenic+rebellion#2732674

If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?

neo i already did...pg 38 (1peter 1:20)

neologist wrote:

Terry wrote:

kate4christ03 wrote:

neo i have always claimed to be horrid at the quoting....

It's pretty simple. Just click on the "Quote" button and delete any extranaeous material.

Quote:

God knew everything before he created anything. i already gave you the scripture that says God preordained Christ to die bf he even created adam and eve. God is omniscient but that doesnt mean that we don't have freewill. This doesn't paint God as a tyrant or limit his powers. He knows all yet still gives us the opportunity to choose. and get this ....The biggest proof of his mercy, he knew adam and eve would fall bf creating them, and instead of condemning all his creation to damnation, he sacrificed his son.

Why do you suppose that a good and loving God created hell to eternally torture people who offended him by acting exactly as he preordained them to, but then changed his mind and decided to sire a son to be killed as a sacrifice to himself in order to stop himself from condemning us?

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply forgive us for being human without killing anyone?

I have often contended that non believers have no need to invent straw men when they are provided in such abundance by 'believers'.

You are seeing strawmen in your dreams neo.

neologist wrote:

One such example is the idea of necessary foreknowledge, which leads to the mistaken belief that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail and that, by extension, all the abominations that have befallen the human race since Eden existed only at one time within the mind of God who then unleashed them on intelligent creation in a cynical act of cosmic sadism.

The majority of the material in that particular perceived strawman is your own contribution.

neologist wrote:

As has been explained before:

Slavery and other human miseries came upon mankind as a result of the Edenic rebellion.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2732674&highlight=edenic+rebellion#2732674

The fact that Adam and Eve were doomed to fail comes directly from the story itself. They had no knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit. Without faculties of determining right from wrong, failure to obey was the only possible outcome.

neologist wrote:

If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

I doubt that you have any better insight into the thought processes of a god than I do, so all that we have to evaluate in that regard is the human way (according to the Bible we were created in God's image anyhoo). Have you ever tried to NOT know something that you DO know? Have you ever tried to NOT think about something? Tonight when you lay your head on your pillow try NOT to think about where you park your tongue while you sleep. When you see someone yawn, try NOT to think about yawning and try NOT to yawn yourself.

If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.

God in his foreknowledge knew that men would fall (on their own) He didn't make or prescribe for them to fall.

neologist wrote:

If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.

Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways.

echi wrote:

neologist wrote:

If God is all powerful, then he certainly has the ability to refrain from peering into our moral outcomes as if he were some galactic voyeur.

That is the true essence of our free will.

Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways.

I certainly can't tell you what went on in the mind of God when he created us. There are a few clues, however.

One is he offers us choice. He could not honestly do so, if he knew our moral outcome.

Additionally, the bible assigns God the quality of love. Do you find the contention that God knew human misery in advance to be in harmony with the quality of love?

I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.

I can't understand why it seems such a difficult concept to grasp that God is not bound by any necessity, including necessary foreknowledge.

How else could free will be possible?

kate4christ03 wrote:

God in his foreknowledge knew that men would fall (on their own) He didn't make or prescribe for them to fall.

You can't have it both ways either, kate.

Quote:

I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.

Your god can even defy logic! Is there anything he can't do?

One is he offers us choice. He could not honestly do so, if he knew our moral outcome.

Additionally, the bible assigns God the quality of love. Do you find the contention that God knew human misery in advance to be in harmony with the quality of love?

I accept the idea that God knew rebellion was possible. But he also has the power to undo all injuries and set all things straight.

I can't understand why it seems such a difficult concept to grasp that God is not bound by any necessity, including necessary foreknowledge.

Did he know what he was creating, or didn't he? You can't have it both ways

neo you totally disregarded the verse i gave. it says he preordained Christ to die for our sins bf he even created the earth. He knew. . . . foreknowledge and predestination (as i stated earlier) are two different things. The bible shows us that God knew all before he created us, but he still gave freewill. This doesnt make us mindless robots subject to his whims, it just means that he is omniscient.