Confidence in your beliefs.

neo, If god hasn't changed since he created earth, then why has all "miracles" stopped after bible times? All those miracles nobody witnessed and wrote about except those mentioned in the bible; doesn't it raise honest questions in you own mind? Turning a human to a pillar of salt? Come on!

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vikorr wrote:

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Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

No, but it does mean that someone cannot change their mind.

You agree, then go about disagreeing. You may want to resolve that contradiction

Does it not mean that someone may change their mind a thousand times, and God knows what they will eventually chooseand the choice itself is up to individual?

It is an amazing thing to say :

"You have knowledge of what I am going to choose, so you force me to do it."

Or "You know what I am going to choose, so you make this choice for me, I don't make it."

Or "You have knowledge what I am going to choose, therefore I am not responsible for my actions."

Or "You know what I am going to choose, which means you interfere in every decision I make."

Or "You have knowledge of what I am going to choose, so you are responsible for my actions."

Etc etc etc

The Bible really does make it quite clear that God knows the future.

So as I said, for yourself, you may want to consider resolving the conflict.

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vikorr wrote:

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vikorr wrote:

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Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

No, but it does mean that someone cannot change their mind.

You agree, then go about disagreeing. You may want to resolve that contradiction

There is no contridiction. God didn't force me to make the choice, but since he knows what I will do then there really wasn't a choice to make. The choice was already foreknown, so it really wasn't a choice at all. There was obviously only 1 option or outcome, how else could the future be known?

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Does it not mean that someone may change their mind a thousand times, and God knows what they will eventually chooseand the choice itself is up to individual?

If god knows what I will choose, then there is only 1 choice, which negates free will.

If god gave me a choice between an apple or an orange, but he knew I'd chose the orange, then there really wasn't an opportunity for me to choose the apple was there? If the future is known, then there is no free will.

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It is an amazing thing to say :

"You have knowledge of what I am going to choose, so you force me to do it."

I didn't say that.

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Or "You know what I am going to choose, so you make this choice for me, I don't make it."

I didn't say this either, I'm arguing that god does not exist or at the very least that he cannot know the future of all things and allow free will. The paradox in your belief is that he does both.

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Or "You have knowledge what I am going to choose, therefore I am not responsible for my actions."

Never said that either.

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Or "You know what I am going to choose, which means you interfere in every decision I make."

Never said that.

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Or "You have knowledge of what I am going to choose, so you are responsible for my actions."

YAAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNN.......this is getting old....never said that either.

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The Bible really does make it quite clear that God knows the future.

If god knows the future choices and decisions that we/I/you will make, then there cannot be free will.

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So as I said, for yourself, you may want to consider resolving the conflict.

And as I've shown, the only conflict is in the strawman argument you've chosen to apply to my comments; comments I've never made.

I was unfamiliar with your previous posts vikorr...I thought I'd give you a shot, but if you're future arguments will be full of this type of response (putting words in my mouth, misrepresenting my arguments, etc), then I will be disapointed.

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Unfortunately, your disapointment is meaningless to me. What you do with it is up to you.

The numerous 'words in your mouth', were just a rephrasing of what you appear to me, to be saying.

As I haven't been religious for about 15 years, the debate for me, was purely a matter of some interest and a bit of curiousity.

Your beliefs of course, are up to yourself.

They do seem contradictory to me, but that is for you to be satisfied or not with, not me :wink:

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vikorr wrote:

Unfortunately, your disapointment is meaningless to me. What you do with it is up to you.

The numerous 'words in your mouth', were just a rephrasing of what you appear to me, to be saying.

As I haven't been religious for about 15 years, the debate for me, was purely a matter of some interest and a bit of curiousity.

Your beliefs of course, are up to yourself.

They do seem contradictory to me, but that is for you to be satisfied or not with, not me :wink:

This is your rebuttal to my post?

Fair enough, you've just left me a little wanting that's all.

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vikorr wrote:

The numerous 'words in your mouth', were just a rephrasing of what you appear to me, to be saying.

And this is completly false, I almost think you're lying.

Your 'rephrasing' completly changed the meaning of my post. How about you stop worrying about what you 'think' I'm saying and argue against what I'm ACTUALLY saying. Your rephrasing did nothing but change my argument to something you WISH I had said so you could argue against it easier. These are textbook strawman fallacies.

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This is your rebuttal to my post?

Fair enough, you've just left me a little wanting that's all.

No maporsche, it is not a rebuttal, it is simply a reply.

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The numerous 'words in your mouth', were just a rephrasing of what you appear to me, to be saying.

And this is completly false, I almost think you're lying.

Up to you to believe what you want.

It still appears to me to be what you are saying. Obviously you see it differently, which means it can't be what you are saying. Which then means that I don't understand what you are saying. Which can have a number of causes (that I can see). It may be that :
- you areunclear in your explanation; or
- I am incapable of comprehending what you are saying; or
- either you or I (or both) are stuck in a paradigm; or
- we have a basic disagreement on definitions; or
- there is an inherent contradiction in what either you or I (or both) are saying

Take your pick of causes, or combinations of causes (and feel free to add any to the list that you think up)

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Fine, Kate. But all the references to foreknowledge and predestination refer back only to the time of the founding of Satan's 'age', our current world. Read the prophecy of the seed in Genesis 3:15, when this time began. This would never have been spoken if the first humans had been faithful.

neo where do you come up with this illogical stuff? you say that predestination and God's absolute foreknowledge is dependant upon and only during "this age"? that makes no sense nor do you have any scripture.
and i have scripture to prove your wrong.
remember the scripture in peter that you keep side stepping bc you can't explain it away.
Before the foundation of the world, God preordained Christ.....
and remember you tried to say "satan is god of this world" which is not even correct nor has any relevance to the scripture. and remember when i pointed out that "world" in this verse (1peter) means the same as world/ earth in genesis. so that shows that before this World, all of earth (including any lifeforms) was created, God knew that two people, adam and eve would sin and he already ordained Christs death. so this one scripture rocks the foundation of your belief that Gods foreknowledge only consists of "this age". You give satan way to much credit for anything, and God not enough.

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You can't seem to get it out of your head that our true free will depends on God's willingness to refrain from peering into our outcome. While it is true that he did so in the case of a few, (Jesus, Jacob. etc), those who have been selected to become the "many brethren" were not, of necessity, chosen by name.

It's amazing that you can't see the conundrum posed by your belief.

no it doesn't. that is your opinion and once again you have no scripture that shows that for us to have freewill, God must lack absolute foreknowledge. Just because he is all-knowing, doesn't mean we are robots. so far in this debate, you have given no scripture to back up your points. all you have is opinion, which contradicts the bible. and if you want to believe that, it's fine, bc everyone has a right to believe what they want. but dont say that you believe the bible in its fullest, since it's clear that you do not.

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Kate, who, in your opinion, is in charge of world affairs at this time?

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(psssssssst -- i know this one, kate...it's the devil!)

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...and the devil is us.

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echi wrote:

(psssssssst -- i know this one, kate...it's the devil!)

No fair. You peeked! :wink:

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cicerone imposter wrote:

neo, If god hasn't changed since he created earth, then why has all "miracles" stopped after bible times? All those miracles nobody witnessed and wrote about except those mentioned in the bible; doesn't it raise honest questions in you own mind? Turning a human to a pillar of salt? Come on!

Miracles served for a time, but "when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. . . " The bible is complete. (1Corinthians 13:10)

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God knows everything before it happens!
And God went on to say: "And they will create the internet and then they will use it to argue amongst themselves whether I exist or not, whether I have foreknowledge or not, whether I will ever change anything or not."

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just want to say "thanks" to hankarin and neo...your avatars triggered a mini-seizure. I bit my bottom lip off, but other than that I feel completely re-aligned. Fantastic!

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If only we had chumly to zap us with his electrician guy.

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neologist wrote:

If only we had chumly to zap us with his electrician guy.

lol!

T
K
O

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neologist wrote:

who....is in charge of world affairs at this time?

Is this what you are looking for?

Daniel 4:25 .....till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will......

35 .....and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

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Funny you should say that RL. Of course, the ultimate authority is God. But who has been given the strings for now?

Could it be the one who offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus? (Luke 4: 5-8)

Or the one who blinds the minds of unbelievers? (2Corinthians 4:4)

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The same verse says He gives it to whosoever ( i.e. a man ) He wills, doesn't it?

Satan is referred to as the god of the world. And to the extent that men yield to deceit, then Satan has that influence over their actions.

But man's free will is still intact, and Satan cannot negate that.

God told Adam to have dominion over the earth. Satan does not have that dominion, but can influence men if they listen to him.

So the chain of authority is God-mankind, not God-Satan.

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Confidence in your beliefs.

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