Quote:Maybe you're right, vikkor. I just get very bored with theists treating this site like it's some kind of christian support group instead of a forum for intelligent debate.
What in this conversation gave you the impression that i was using this as a support group. I was answering a questioned posed to me, by someone who isnt a christian. I did not get disrespectful or rant about someone not believing as i do. You jumped in, and in one sentence said you were thoughtful and openminded , and that i was stupid for believing the bible. So far you haven't been openminded and thoughtful, like you claim. Maybe you left the church too soon.
And i have no problem giving a definition of the Holy Spirit. The only thing i find ludicrious is that you take offense to my statement that "most" people who leave the church and become athiest will say they never had the Holy spirit and they don't believe in God. Then you have to ask what the Holy Spirit is....If you have him according to christian belief(and that was what we were talking about) you wouldn't have to ask.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He is the third person in the trinity. When Christ left this earth he sent the Holy Spirit to live inside those that are born again. HE is called The Comforter, SPirit of God, Spirit of Truth etc...
john 14:15--17
here is one verse. I'm in a rush and can get more later.
kate4christ03 wrote:Quote:Maybe you're right, vikkor. I just get very bored with theists treating this site like it's some kind of christian support group instead of a forum for intelligent debate.
What in this conversation gave you the impression that i was using this as a support group.
Well, you are not using it as a debate forum, that's for sure.
Quote:I was answering a questioned posed to me, by someone who isnt a christian. I did not get disrespectful or rant about someone not believing as i do.
You did not answer Eorl's question. You made a ridiculous assumption that "most" people who leave the Christian faith admit to never having known the Holy Spirit. Your "answer" was just a dodge, totally disrespecting the question.
Quote:You jumped in, and in one sentence said you were thoughtful and openminded , and that i was stupid for believing the bible. So far you haven't been openminded and thoughtful, like you claim. Maybe you left the church too soon.
Okay... I was a little bit mean. I apologize. I did not, however, call you "stupid".
Quote:And i have no problem giving a definition of the Holy Spirit. The only thing i find ludicrious is that you take offense to my statement that "most" people who leave the church and become athiest will say they never had the Holy spirit and they don't believe in God. Then you have to ask what the Holy Spirit is....If you have him according to christian belief(and that was what we were talking about) you wouldn't have to ask.
I was asking what the Holy Spirit means to you. I didn't want to be presumptuous.
Quote:The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He is the third person in the trinity. When Christ left this earth he sent the Holy Spirit to live inside those that are born again. HE is called The Comforter, SPirit of God, Spirit of Truth etc...
Yes, this is basically the same generic description that I received in church, twenty years ago. And it is still just as meaningless. If the Christian God is real, do you think that He would approve of someone claiming to believe something that they don't even understand? It's a sin to tell a lie... especially to GOD (I would think).
Quote:Well, you are not using it as a debate forum, that's for sure
That is incorrect. Each topic that i have participated in since coming back(bar the one with rex) I have either actively debated or gave my input to back up someone else's stance. On this topic, i answered the question stated by ghost, as did everyone else(most of us giving different views). Then when eorl asked me a question, i answered. I said i disagreed, then stated why i did so. Anyone can go back and look. You came in and instead of debating in a mature rational manner, you insinuated that im lacking in intelligence(bc of my views on the topic) and then accused me of using this site as a support group and not a debate forum(which is untrue).
Quote:Yes, this is basically the same generic description that I received in church, twenty years ago. And it is still just as meaningless. If the Christian God is real, do you think that He would approve of someone claiming to believe something that they don't even understand? It's a sin to tell a lie... especially to GOD (I would think).
First off how is this generic? The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit. He was sent to indwell christians by Christ, to be our Comforter. He has all the divine attributes of God and Christ and is thus, the third person in the Trinity. All i state is given in the bible, so how is it a sin to copy God's word on a description of the Holy Spirit? I know who he is, scripture is clear and i have been clear also.
kate4christ03 wrote:Quote:Well, you are not using it as a debate forum, that's for sure
That is incorrect. Each topic that i have participated in since coming back(bar the one with rex) I have either actively debated or gave my input to back up someone else's stance. On this topic, i answered the question stated by ghost, as did everyone else(most of us giving different views). Then when eorl asked me a question, i answered. I said i disagreed, then stated why i did so. Anyone can go back and look.
Okay, let's have a look...
kate4christ03 wrote:Eorl wrote:So you are saying that those who do walk away, must be lying about ever having had him in the first place?
Actually most that walk away, openly admit that they never had the Holy Spirit in them. Just ask...
kate4christ03 wrote:echi wrote:kate4christ03 wrote:The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He is the third person in the trinity. When Christ left this earth he sent the Holy Spirit to live inside those that are born again. HE is called The Comforter, SPirit of God, Spirit of Truth etc...
Yes, this is basically the same generic description that I received in church, twenty years ago. And it is still just as meaningless. If the Christian God is real, do you think that He would approve of someone claiming to believe something that they don't even understand? It's a sin to tell a lie... especially to GOD (I would think).
First off how is this generic? The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit. He was sent to indwell christians by Christ, to be our Comforter. He has all the divine attributes of God and Christ and is thus, the third person in the Trinity. All i state is given in the bible, so how is it a sin to copy God's word on a description of the Holy Spirit? I know who he is, scripture is clear and i have been clear also.
"Because my Bible tells me so." This is the best you have to offer?
ok did we just read the same thing....
eorl stated
Quote:
So you are saying that those who do walk away, must be lying about ever having had him in the first place
and i answered him
Quote:Actually most that walk away, openly admit that they never had the Holy Spirit in them. Just ask...
You may not agree or like my answer, but the fact stands that i did answer. So i ask again, how am i using this forum as a support group? Just because you don't agree with my views in any given debate, doesn't give you the right to accuse me or lump me in with those you say use this forum as a support room. You keep making accusations. When i have confronted those accusations, instead of responding to them, you jump to something else. So i ask again...How is this description of the Holy Spirit generic and thus makes me a sinner for posting it?
Quote:"Because my Bible tells me so." This is the best you have to offer?
Have we been in different debates? This discussion was about my view, based on my religion, of the Holy Spirit. So its only logical that i would use the bible to back up what i'm saying. And btw, thanks for apologizing about the disparaging remark on my intelligence. It's forgiven and forgotten.
kate4christ03 wrote:Actually most that walk away, openly admit that they never had the Holy Spirit in them. Just ask...
The question is, did they THINK that they did at the time?
kate4christ03 wrote:ok did we just read the same thing....
eorl stated
Quote:
So you are saying that those who do walk away, must be lying about ever having had him in the first place
and i answered him
Quote:Actually most that walk away, openly admit that they never had the Holy Spirit in them. Just ask...
You may not agree or like my answer, but the fact stands that i did answer.
It is ridiculous to assert that "most...openly admit that they never had the Holy Spirit in them." You did not answer the question asked. Let me make it easier for you...
As a Christian, I knew that which you refer to as the Holy Spirit. I left the Christian religion. So, am I a liar?
kate4christ03 wrote:So i ask again, how am i using this forum as a support group?
You refuse to give any reasons, instead choosing to refer back to the Bible, which means nothing to anyone who has not already bought into your fantasy (I call it "fantasy" because it is not supported by even a small amount of rational thought).
kate4christ03 wrote:Just because you don't agree with my views in any given debate, doesn't give you the right to accuse me or lump me in with those you say use this forum as a support room. You keep making accusations. When i have confronted those accusations, instead of responding to them, you jump to something else. So i ask again...How is this description of the Holy Spirit generic and thus makes me a sinner for posting it?
Well, that was sort of a joke. In any case, it is not because you gave a generic description that might make you a "sinner", but rather the lie in which you claim to know something that you apparently do not.
kate4christ03 wrote:echi wrote:"Because my Bible tells me so." This is the best you have to offer?
Have we been in different debates? This discussion was about my view, based on my religion, of the Holy Spirit. So its only logical that i would use the bible to back up what i'm saying.
It is not logical, especially to someone who does not regard the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
Quote: And btw, thanks for apologizing about the disparaging remark on my intelligence. It's forgiven and forgotten.
Thanks.
eorl..none that i know. Do you know of many athiests that claim that while in the christian church they believed they had the Holy Spirit? I am sure that there are some, but just none that i know.
Quote:As a Christian, I knew that which you refer to as the Holy Spirit. I left the Christian religion. So, am I a liar?
echi as a christian, one has at one time, made a personal commitment to Jesus (believing he died and rose again for their sins and asking to be saved) and has a personal relationship with God and has the Holy Spirit in them. So i ask you, was this true for you? and if you did have a personal relationship with God( evident by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) why did you leave?
Quote:You refuse to give any reasons, instead choosing to refer back to the Bible, which means nothing to anyone who has not already bought into your fantasy (I call it "fantasy" because it is not supported by even a small amount of rational thought).
echi, I've only used the bible in debates where its being discussed or rather the scriptures and teachings within it and christianity. Or, where im asked my personal beliefs. If someone (christian or non) makes a claim about a teaching or belief in the bible what should i use to prove my stance, a math book? You asked me who the Holy Spirit is to me as a christian. I told you, then gave you scriptural reference because that is where i get my belief. If you don't want me to answer a question with scripture then don't ask me about the christian teachings.
kate4christ03 wrote:echi as a christian, one has at one time, made a personal commitment to Jesus (believing he died and rose again for their sins and asking to be saved) and has a personal relationship with God and has the Holy Spirit in them. So i ask you, was this true for you? and if you did have a personal relationship with God( evident by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) why did you leave?
Yes, kate, I was a good, little, Christian boy...no doubt. I thought there really was a Santa Claus, too. Turns out there is no Santa, the Bible is a book of misunderstood myths, and the Holy Spirit is really just my own conscience.
kate4christ03 wrote:echi wrote:You refuse to give any reasons, instead choosing to refer back to the Bible, which means nothing to anyone who has not already bought into your fantasy (I call it "fantasy" because it is not supported by even a small amount of rational thought).
echi, I've only used the bible in debates where its being discussed or rather the scriptures and teachings within it and christianity. Or, where im asked my personal beliefs. If someone (christian or non) makes a claim about a teaching or belief in the bible what should i use to prove my stance, a math book?
You could try using your brain. It will hurt, at first, but the more you practice the easier it will get.
echi we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. I truly believe you didn't have an actual personal relationship with God, bc if you did you wouldn't now believe he is non-existant.
Quote:You could try using your brain. It will hurt, at first, but the more you practice the easier it will get.
there you go again. it's like you can't help it. and the irony is that the more you insult my intelligence, because i have used scripture in debate, the more ridiculous you appear. Anyone who is interested in seeing what i've posted these last few weeks, can take note that i have used scripture when it was being debated. I haven't gone around typing scripture for no apparent reason. Instead of taking full responsibility for your first insult, you laid the blame on myself and other christians. Then, when i called you on that ridiculous accusation, you have kept going, regardless of how silly you look. You are pretty much telling me in this "SPIRITUALITY and RELIGION" forum, within the context of a scriptural debate, or when asked a question pertaining to ones religious beliefs, a person can't use scripture to debate with atheists or anyone else (who, i might add are using those scriptures) ...just let it go. This is getting tedious.
TKo, so now after having the Holy Spirit and having a close, personal relationship with God, through Jesus, you are an athiest? Because that was the context of this discussion.
kate4christ03 wrote:TKo, so now after having the Holy Spirit and having a close, personal relationship with God, through Jesus, you are an athiest? Because that was the context of this discussion.
I reject any found religion. That is why I identify as a Deist, not as either Theist nor Atheist.
I posted as reference to when I believed in Christianity, I was certain about many things, and in retrospect, that was foolish. In all my experiance with Christinaity, I found it to be not real, but at the time, the surroundins, the people, the way I was conditioned to feel made be feel so sure that it was real. It was only after, when I could see a larger picture that I realized that it was not.
Tko and on the other end of the spectrum, i find that my relationship with God grows. I couldn't possibly think of walking away and denying Him.
kate4christ03 wrote:Tko and on the other end of the spectrum, i find that my relationship with God grows. I couldn't possibly think of walking away and denying Him.
I don't expect you to. I don't fault anyone's choice to be any religion. the part of my life as a Christian is still important to me spiritually, but Christianity itself was not the answer for me. It was a prt of my journey, I don't fault anyone for being there.
To you it must seem odd that I could want to leave Christ, I understand that must seem odd.
But My jurney has already taken be to better places, better questions, and painted a much larger profound image of the universe than Christianity ever could.
I don't expect you to understand that, but don't think I didn't give Christianity a fair chance.
Tko and for me, becoming a child of God has been the single most important decision i ever made. For me, my freedom and joy is in Christ. I don't feel hindered in any way for being a christian. But i do understand that not everyone feels the same way. And while i can't comprehend the need some have to leave christianity, i don't look down nor judge anyone because they aren't a christian. Thanks for sharing.
kate4christ03 wrote: while i can't comprehend the need some have to leave christianity
Yes, that is the problem from where I sit. You don't understand (can't comprehend), and have no desire to do so.
Meanwhile, some of us DO understand YOUR position, and have "been there".
So it would seem that until you understand, you'll just have to take our word for it that you
may be deluding yourself? Not that you
are. Just that you
may be. It is the only honest answer in your situation.
Time appears as a chimera, as a monster formulated out of the three entirely different bodies of past, present and future. The past no longer exists - it appears to lie plainly before us, albeit untouchably distant; the future does not yet exist - it hovers in the air, an insubstantial haze. Both, each in its own way ungoverned by what is supposed to define it, are unreal precisely because of this. But the present forms only an infinitesimally short space of linear time; no sooner does it come into existence than it has vanished again, a mere turning-point between both the other nullities. Here, too, the basic certification of existence cannot really be assigned. It is only in time that we exist - and yet, precisely through its nature, we do not exist. Maybe it would be best if, like animals, we were simply to forget, in order at least to perpetuate our present. But even that won't work. One cannot resolve to forget, for memory is at work even in the act of intention.
Easiest would for God to be judging, for then he would represent eternal memory. That there is a judgement "at the end of time" not only validates the idea of goodness but also provides assurance that the past has not truly been annihilated. Resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgement, eternal life: this is how the otherwise perfectly meaningless succession of generations brought about by birth and death acquires its meaning, for this way in which humanity serves in shifts, meaning that a much greater number of souls can be blessed with salvation than if Adam and Eve along with their children had simply never died. Thus history, otherwise nothing but a wild army of racing clouds, gains the backdrop of a heaven which captures its ephemeral figures like a photograph.
It would be nice if this were the case, instead of our half falling into an abyss of nothingness while still alive, and in death vanishing completely. It would be nice, too, for a man dying of thirst to be able to summon an oasis into existence by the force of his thirst; but unfortunately, whether the oasis exists or not is does not depend on how thirsty he is. The most that thirst alone can make is a mirage.
Quote:Meanwhile, some of us DO understand YOUR position, and have "been there".
eorl so you were a born again christian with a personal relationship with Christ and God? if so why did you leave and now deny their existance?
Quote:So it would seem that until you understand, you'll just have to take our word for it that you may be deluding yourself? Not that you are. Just that you may be. It is the only honest answer in your situation.
The reason i can't understand one willfully rejecting Christ, is because I have Christ and i know he is real and I see no reason to walk away. And that is me being truly honest.
