Confidence in your beliefs.

"This is the acme of faith, to believe that God, Who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just Who has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that....He seems to delight in the tortures of the wretched, and to be more deserving of hatred than of love."

No wonder atheism is so appealing.

God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.

neo: God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.


For "our" benefit? What ever happened to free will? I don't want that "sacrifice." That's really not a sacrifice anyways, because he just slept for a few days. Sacrifice is when it doesn't come back.

neologist wrote:

"This is the acme of faith, to believe that God, Who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just Who has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that....He seems to delight in the tortures of the wretched, and to be more deserving of hatred than of love."

No wonder atheism is so appealing.

Ol' Martin Luther was rather perceptive. Thanks for that quote Neo.

neologist wrote:

God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.

Please explain why this mythical god needed to sacrifice his son to himself in a such disgustingly horrific manner other than to give himself some sort of cosmic orgasm. The distorted logic required to rationalize such a proposition is beyond my comprehension. Piggybacking the Jesus story on top of the Hebrew war god mythology creates massive incongruities.

I suppose this question could just as well be answered in Diest TKO's John 3:16 topic which is deserving of another bump.

I wouldn't take anything from my participation in this thread which started here

cicerone imposter wrote:

neo: God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.


For "our" benefit? What ever happened to free will? I don't want that "sacrifice." That's really not a sacrifice anyways, because he just slept for a few days. Sacrifice is when it doesn't come back.

Are you saying you believe in free will?

Really?

neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

neo: God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.


For "our" benefit? What ever happened to free will? I don't want that "sacrifice." That's really not a sacrifice anyways, because he just slept for a few days. Sacrifice is when it doesn't come back.

Are you saying you believe in free will?

Really?

That's what bible-thumpers continue to tell us; that god gave us free will - to be good or sin.

Nope, I nailed it.

neologist wrote:

For what it's worth, the bible's point of view:

Of course, it wasn't God who came to earth to provide what could only be termed a meaningless gesture, it was Jesus, a separate individual, God's firstborn, who was present for all of creation.

It seem odd that if Jesus was around from the beginning that all we heard about for the first several thousand years was about the vengeful, wrathful, jealous god that went around smiting and wiping out cities, nations, and even the whole world one time.

Nary a peep do we hear form Jesus until he is sent down to earth, and what a trip that was. God being the master doer of dirty deeds poofs pregnant a young and betrothed virgin. Joe of course buys the story without a blink. Sure, I guess we are to believe Joe never read or heard about Leviticus.

30 or so odd years later, Jesus begins to talk, but he doesn't sound a bit like Dad. Nope he says forget that eye for an eye stuff, turn the other cheek, do unto others, and all that other wonderful stuff in the beatitudes.

This doesn't last for long. The priests are getting torqued and arrange to have Jesus executed in a particularly horrific and gruesome manner.

We are told that this was all Gods plan and Jesus was aware of it except for that short little lapse when he spoke, " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

But It was indeed God's plan, a plan to save us from God's terrible sin activated temper, a temper that we were previously doomed to receive since we are all born with sin as a result of God's sting operation on Eve in the Garden of Eden. But I digress. Back to the plan, the wonderful plan.

All that you need to do to save yourself from God's wrath and an eternity of torment is to believe that God completely satisfied his jollies by sacrificing his son to himself. If you can swallow that one, you are home free.

For me that is way way too much to swallow.

So, do you believe in your moral free will?

neologist wrote:

So, do you believe in your moral free will?

I believe nobody is capable of basing their every action on morality. Weather I choose to eat a banana or an apple is completely detached from morality, and those kinds of choices are the ones we make most of in out everyday life.

Coolwhip wrote:

neologist wrote:

So, do you believe in your moral free will?

I believe nobody is capable of basing their every action on morality. Weather I choose to eat a banana or an apple is completely detached from morality, and those kinds of choices are the ones we make most of in out everyday life.

I wasn't referring to dietary choices or to the many physical limitations we might have on our free will.

The real question we might face regarding free will applies to our moral choices. IMHO

mesquite wrote:

Nope, I nailed it.

Might as well re run your well written, but sophomoric rant:

mesquite wrote:

neologist wrote:

For what it's worth, the bible's point of view:

Of course, it wasn't God who came to earth to provide what could only be termed a meaningless gesture, it was Jesus, a separate individual, God's firstborn, who was present for all of creation.

It seem odd that if Jesus was around from the beginning that all we heard about for the first several thousand years was about the vengeful, wrathful, jealous god that went around smiting and wiping out cities, nations, and even the whole world one time.

Nary a peep do we hear form Jesus until he is sent down to earth, and what a trip that was. God being the master doer of dirty deeds poofs pregnant a young and betrothed virgin. Joe of course buys the story without a blink. Sure, I guess we are to believe Joe never read or heard about Leviticus.

30 or so odd years later, Jesus begins to talk, but he doesn't sound a bit like Dad. Nope he says forget that eye for an eye stuff, turn the other cheek, do unto others, and all that other wonderful stuff in the beatitudes.

This doesn't last for long. The priests are getting torqued and arrange to have Jesus executed in a particularly horrific and gruesome manner.

We are told that this was all Gods plan and Jesus was aware of it except for that short little lapse when he spoke, " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

But It was indeed God's plan, a plan to save us from God's terrible sin activated temper, a temper that we were previously doomed to receive since we are all born with sin as a result of God's sting operation on Eve in the Garden of Eden. But I digress. Back to the plan, the wonderful plan.

All that you need to do to save yourself from God's wrath and an eternity of torment is to believe that God completely satisfied his jollies by sacrificing his son to himself. If you can swallow that one, you are home free.

For me that is way way too much to swallow.

I took the liberty of highlighting the essence of your error in bold red. It is the error of many believers as well. It is the quintessential error of convenience:

"If there is a God, then he doesn't give a rat's behind about us, so we might as well do as we please. And if there is a hell, we can curse him from there."

Coolwhip wrote:

neologist wrote:

So, do you believe in your moral free will?

I believe nobody is capable of basing their every action on morality. Weather I choose to eat a banana or an apple is completely detached from morality, and those kinds of choices are the ones we make most of in out everyday life.

I wasn't referring to dietary choices or to the many physical limitations we might have on our free will.

The real question we might face regarding free will applies to our moral choices. IMHO

neologist wrote:

Coolwhip wrote:

neologist wrote:

So, do you believe in your moral free will?

I believe nobody is capable of basing their every action on morality. Weather I choose to eat a banana or an apple is completely detached from morality, and those kinds of choices are the ones we make most of in out everyday life.

I wasn't referring to dietary choices or to the many physical limitations we might have on our free will.

The real question we might face regarding free will applies to our moral choices. IMHO

According to the Bible, dietary choices were moral choices.

. . . According to the Genesis story Adam and Eve were destined to fall. There was no way around it. You can pretend to ignore it and invent terms like the Edenic Rebellion to camouflage it but that does not change the story told in Genesis. Your exegesis of the Eden story has been put to rest numerous times, most recently beginning here.

. . . A&E would never have encountered a situation that required a moral decision so long as they had no knowledge of good and evil.

You should cite the member you are quoting.

This underscores the huge difference between God's actual qualities and the misrepresentations of both believers and non believers.
Predestination
Reprobation
Determinism
Foreknowledge by necessity
All are either limitations on the power of God or paint God as a cruel tyrant.

I doubt God is the best dietitian. Last I heard God didn't have any education.

Having no knowledge of good and bad, how would they have chosen a right course?

Are you telling me that eating of the fruit of the tree was necessary for their 'education', or were Adam and Eve created with a conscience?