Confidence in your beliefs.

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What is so great about the concept of heaven compared to life on earth with one's family, productive work and recreation?

neo i would have to ask your church leaders that question. since they base much of their theology around the view that they, along with the better saints get heaven, while you and the rest of the followers of the jw church get earth.

and my biggest problem with this view is that it's not biblical.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

neologist wrote:
What is so great about the concept of heaven compared to life on earth with one's family, productive work and recreation?

neo i would have to ask your church leaders that question. since they base much of their theology around the view that they, along with the better saints get heaven, while you and the rest of the followers of the jw church get earth.

Your knowledge of our beliefs is thus shown to be insufficient.

kate4christ03 wrote:

and my biggest problem with this view is that it's not biblical.

Like the meek shall inherit the ________?

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Your knowledge of our beliefs is thus shown to be insufficient

no it's not neo. you cannot deny that your church teaches that 144,000 of the most faithful Jehovah followers will rule in heaven; this includes the patriarchs, the apostles and the founding fathers of your church. and the other followers of Jehovah will inherit the earth. most jw beliefs are centered around eschatological studies (cited mainly in daniel and revelation). if you have any questions about my knowledge of the jw's just ask bc i promise i know pretty much every tenet of your faith.

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Like the meek shall inherit the ________?

two points i would like to make: First, since the meek inherit the earth, does this imply that the 144,000 that get heaven aren't meek since they don't inherit the earth. Secondly, this refers to the endtimes, the millenial reign to be exact. (rev 20)

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kate4christ03 wrote:

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Your knowledge of our beliefs is thus shown to be insufficient

no it's not neo. you cannot deny that your church teaches that 144,000 of the most faithful Jehovah followers will rule in heaven; this includes the patriarchs, the apostles and the founding fathers of your church. and the other followers of Jehovah will inherit the earth. most jw beliefs are centered around eschatological studies (cited mainly in daniel and revelation). if you have any questions about my knowledge of the jw's just ask bc i promise i know pretty much every tenet of your faith.

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Like the meek shall inherit the ________?

two points i would like to make: First, since the meek inherit the earth, does this imply that the 144,000 that get heaven aren't meek since they don't inherit the earth. Secondly, this refers to the endtimes, the millenial reign to be exact. (rev 20)

The number of those ruling in heaven is limited. There is every reason to believe the 144,000 mentioned in revelation is a literal number. Since they will rule as kings and priests, I guess you could say they inherit the earth. They are also called God's slaves, so I suppose that would mean they are meek.

Two more points: Adam and Eve were never promised anything other than life on earth. The OT is full of promises for life on earth which you undoubtedly know of since you are so well acquainted with our beliefs.

What makes you think we concentrate only on Daniel and Revelation?

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There is every reason to believe the 144,000 mentioned in revelation is a literal number

i believe its a literal number also. but a literal number of JEWS who are virgins (rev 7:4,14:4)taken during one specific time. there is no scripture that this 144,000 are the only ones to get heaven, or that they are an assortment of jews and gentiles taken throughout the ages.

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Adam and Eve were never promised anything other than life on earth. The OT is full of promises for life on earth which you undoubtedly know of since you are so well acquainted with our beliefs.

before even creating adam and eve, God knew they would sin and screw up. He had already made another plan. The bible says the Lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth were made. Christ and God knew He(Christ) would have to die for our sins. They knew that there had to be a way to God. and they made a way for man to get to God and have eternal life with God. There are many verses in the OT on promises of earth but as i pointed out those verses are in reference to the millennial reign( rev 20). also read rev 21. GOd makes a new heaven and a new earth. the saints of God dwell on them both. there is no 2 flocks; one getting heaven and the other earth. Your church leaders have lied to you telling you that you arent as holy as them so you get to be their servant and they can rule with Christ. this is a lie and not scriptural. IF you make Christ your Savior you are a child of God, equal to every saint, but still submissive to Christ.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

neologist wrote:
There is every reason to believe the 144,000 mentioned in revelation is a literal number
i believe its a literal number also. but a literal number of JEWS who are virgins (rev 7:4,14:4)taken during one specific time. there is no scripture that this 144,000 are the only ones to get heaven, or that they are an assortment of jews and gentiles taken throughout the ages.

Compare the tribes listed in Revelation with the historical Hebrew tribes. Then tell me if you still think the number represents literal Isreal or spiritual Isreal.

kate4christ03 wrote:

neologist wrote:
Adam and Eve were never promised anything other than life on earth. The OT is full of promises for life on earth which you undoubtedly know of since you are so well acquainted with our beliefs.

before even creating adam and eve, God knew they would sin and screw up.

That would mean that every evil and abomination known to the universe must have at one time existed only within the mind of the creator and he deliberately unleashed them on his intelligent creation in a sadistic act of cosmic cruelty. This is not the God I worship. (See Jeremiah 7:31)

kate4christ03 wrote:

. . . Your church leaders have lied to you telling you that you arent as holy as them . . .

Remind yourself of Jesus words regarding John the Baptist and his position vis a vis the Kingdom.

You really need to spend a little more time thinking about what you have been fed.

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sorry neo that it's took so long to respond.

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Compare the tribes listed in Revelation with the historical Hebrew tribes. Then tell me if you still think the number represents literal Isreal or spiritual Isreal

in zecheriah ezekiel and romans God promises to save a remnant of the jews in the endtimes. Revelations lists people of the 12 israeli tribes as being those God redeems from the earth(during the trib) Neo nowhere in scripture are gentile christians called a part of the twelve tribes. YEs we are grafted into the family of God but we arent under the twelve tribes because we arent jews. remember the nt says.."there is neither jew nor greek in Christ..."

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That would mean that every evil and abomination known to the universe must have at one time existed only within the mind of the creator and he deliberately unleashed them on his intelligent creation in a sadistic act of cosmic cruelty. This is not the God I worship. (See Jeremiah 7:31)

neo the last part of vs 31..."which i did not command, nor did it come into my heart" are you implying that this verse shows that God had no foreknowledge of the evils the israelites were going to do? do you believe that God doesn't know what is going to happen before it happens? Do you think he didn't know that satan would become evil before he created him etc???

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Remind yourself of Jesus words regarding John the Baptist and his position vis a vis the Kingdom.

Christ said john was the greatest man ever born of a woman but he would be least in Gods kingdom. correct me if im wrong, but i assume you take this verse to mean that there are different levels of christianity or holiness and based on that, one either gets heaven or earth for eternity? before i reply i would like to know if that is correct.

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why are you people so hung up on myth and fairy tales?

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Steve.
I really don't think they know, seeing how they seem to get great pleasure from reciting bit's from their bile-bull, to PROVE that their particular concept is the TRUE interpretation, of what their particular god supposedly said. Then that, plus praying to their god in a big building with many like people, would have to be the ultimate of pleasure to them, supposedly??.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

. . . .
neologist wrote:

That would mean that every evil and abomination known to the universe must have at one time existed only within the mind of the creator and he deliberately unleashed them on his intelligent creation in a sadistic act of cosmic cruelty. This is not the God I worship. (See Jeremiah 7:31)
neo the last part of vs 31..."which i did not command, nor did it come into my heart" are you implying that this verse shows that God had no foreknowledge of the evils the israelites were going to do? do you believe that God doesn't know what is going to happen before it happens? Do you think he didn't know that satan would become evil before he created him etc???. . . .

There is a great difference between having the ability to foreknow and being bound by necessity to foreknow. Were God bound by necessity, how could he offer us choice or ask us to repent?

If he knows all in advance, choice is irrelevant and as Martin Luther said "By this thunderbolt free will sinks shattered in the dust."

Will Durant aptly equated Luther's position with the position of the atheist: "Determinism is predestinarianism without theology."

Agree with Luther if you will.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

why are you people so hung up on myth and fairy tales?

Fear of the unknown.

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FEAR.

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It is what many (most?) adults teach many (most?) children: embrace fairy tales and you will be comforted.

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There is a great difference between having the ability to foreknow and being bound by necessity to foreknow. Were God bound by necessity, how could he offer us choice or ask us to repent?

If he knows all in advance, choice is irrelevant....

foreknowledge and freewill do not contradict when it comes to God. God knew everything before he created anything. the bible says that the lamb was ordained to be slain bf the foundations of the earth were formed. 1peter 1:20 God knew that satan would fall before he was created. Just as God knew that adam and eve would sin before he created them. the whole bible is filled with Gods foreknowledge....and man's freewill.

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God must be a masochist; he knew most humans would fail his test from the very beginning, starting with Adam and Eve. Why did he sacrifice jesus? Why does god need a sacrifice? Doesn't make any sense.

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Who says we have to know everything...or even understand anything for it to be true? If God is greater and perfect and knows all then there are bound to be many things we as finite beings cannot comprehend. Why would God have to make it clear to us at all? He chooses not to. He allows us glimpses of understanding...and asks us to wait until we are with Him to know and understand in full. If we had the mind of God - there would be no need for a Savior.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

God must be a masochist; he knew most humans would fail his test from the very beginning, starting with Adam and Eve. Why did he sacrifice jesus? Why does god need a sacrifice? Doesn't make any sense.

God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.

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mismi40 wrote:

Who says we have to know everything...or even understand anything for it to be true? If God is greater and perfect and knows all then there are bound to be many things we as finite beings cannot comprehend. Why would God have to make it clear to us at all? He chooses not to. He allows us glimpses of understanding...and asks us to wait until we are with Him to know and understand in full. If we had the mind of God - there would be no need for a Savior.

IF

T
K
O

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Quote:
There is a great difference between having the ability to foreknow and being bound by necessity to foreknow. Were God bound by necessity, how could he offer us choice or ask us to repent?

If he knows all in advance, choice is irrelevant....
foreknowledge and freewill do not contradict when it comes to God. God knew everything before he created anything. the bible says that the lamb was ordained to be slain bf the foundations of the earth were formed. 1peter 1:20 God knew that satan would fall before he was created. Just as God knew that adam and eve would sin before he created them. the whole bible is filled with Gods foreknowledge....and man's freewill.

You should cite the member you are quoting. This underscores the huge difference between God's actual qualities and the misrepresentations of both believers and non believers.
Predestination
Reprobation
Determinism
Foreknowledge by necessity
All are either limitations on the power of God or paint God as a cruel tyrant.

It reminds me of Martin Luther's disgusting rant:

"This is the acme of faith, to believe that God, Who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just Who has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that....He seems to delight in the tortures of the wretched, and to be more deserving of hatred than of love."

No wonder atheism is so appealing.

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neo: God doesn't need anything. The sacrifice was for our benefit.

For "our" benefit? What ever happened to free will? I don't want that "sacrifice." That's really not a sacrifice anyways, because he just slept for a few days. Sacrifice is when it doesn't come back.

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