Confidence in your beliefs.

neologist,

I asked you a series of straightforward questions and what I get from you are a few quotations of scripture that are wide open to interpretation and don't appear to answer my questions. Is that the best you can do? Do you have any beliefs or convictions relative to these matters? Have you thought it through at all? (Its OK to say, no, I haven't thought all this through, if that is the case.)

what happens to genuinely evil men when they die?

Indefinite life on earth? How do you figure that? Endless reincarnation, without any final liberation? That's as good as hell to me.

Here is what you said: "Christ himself said he is the ONLY WAY to God, so other paths or religions, according to Christs words are false." I replied that you are interpreting Christ's words incorrectly. If you take his words literally, then Christ is condemning all non-Christians to hell for all eternity. Do you really believe that? Does that seem consistent with the Christ who preaches love and forgiveness? We're not simply talking about evil people here. We're talking about many good people who happen to be Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. Some of them might never have been exposed to Christianity, or know very little about it. Does it sound logical to you that these people would be condemned?

Now you are saying that every individual has a right to choose their own path, but previously you stated that all of these other paths are "false" and cannot lead to God. Therefore, they must lead to hell.

All I have been trying to do is to offer an interpretation that avoids this dilemma, but you don't seem interested. You continue to assert a simplistic, literal interpretation that condemns the majority of the world's population to hell. Can you even conceive of the possibility that you have over-simplified Christ's words and are in error? If you really believe what you say, you must feel sad when you're in the company of people of other religions, knowing that they are doomed to an eternity of suffering. No?

You asked

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what happens to genuinely evil men when they die?

Solomon's answer from Ecclesiastes is that when you are dead, you are dead.

You asked

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Indefinite life on earth? How do you figure that? Endless reincarnation, without any final liberation? That's as good as hell to me.

I quoted Genesis and Isaiah relating God's purpose for humans to live on the earth. I left a lot of things out for simplicity's sake. But the bottom line is that, had Adam and Eve not sinned, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death. That being God's purpose for the earth, the entire bible is devoted to the steps he has taken and will take to complete his purpose.

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Here is what you said: "Christ himself said he is the ONLY WAY to God, so other paths or religions, according to Christs words are false." I replied that you are interpreting Christ's words incorrectly. If you take his words literally, then Christ is condemning all non-Christians to hell for all eternity. Do you really believe that? Does that seem consistent with the Christ who preaches love and forgiveness? We're not simply talking about evil people here. We're talking about many good people who happen to be Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. Some of them might never have been exposed to Christianity, or know very little about it. Does it sound logical to you that these people would be condemned?

your problem is that you don't know the bible and you don't know all Christ said. You have picked up bits and pieces and ignored the whole. you have no scripture to defend your universalistic view. and Christ himself said "there is none good not one."

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Now you are saying that every individual has a right to choose their own path, but previously you stated that all of these other paths are "false" and cannot lead to God. Therefore, they must lead to hell.

i have said from the beginning of this conversation that everyone has a right to choose their own path and i have the right to believe they are wrong( if they don't choose Christ). But, i wont go out and attack or try to curtail anyones freedom to choose their own belief.

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All I have been trying to do is to offer an interpretation that avoids this dilemma, but you don't seem interested. You continue to assert a simplistic, literal interpretation that condemns the majority of the world's population to hell. Can you even conceive of the possibility that you have over-simplified Christ's words and are in error? If you really believe what you say, you must feel sad when you're in the company of people of other religions, knowing that they are doomed to an eternity of suffering. No?

you feel that you can offer a "different interpretation of scripture" sorry but your not even interpreting scripture.your making up stuff. you, as i said earlier pick and choose a few scriptures and ignore the rest. and though i border on repetition, i will say this once more, please don't try and pass yourself off as an openminded individual when you show to have no tolerance for my belief.

ifeel you have ignored countless verses.
1john 2:22-23 who is a liar but he who denies that JEsus is the Christ? HE is antichrist who denies the father and the son WHo ever denies the son doesnt have the father either...
john 3:18...he who doesnt believe in him (Jesus) is condemned already
rev 20:15 and anyone not found written in the book of Life was cast into the lake of fire
matt 25:41 and He(Jesus) will say to those on the left hand Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devils and his angels.
the whole bible shows the need for Christ to come to earth and die for our sins. and it tells us that to make Christ our Savior and to be cleansed of sin we must repent and believe JEsus is the MEssiah.

So, you believe in freedom of thought. That's fine. However, I'm inquiring about your beliefs concerning the fate of Christians vs non-Christians. Do you believe in an afterlife? Do you believe in Heaven? Hell? How do you reconcile a loving God with eternal damnation for non-Christians? Its a reasonable question, don't you think?

. . . Is there an afterlife? A hell? A heaven? What is the fate of Christians and non-Christians when they die? Do you have any beliefs in that regard? Why would you be reluctant to state those beliefs?

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ifeel you have ignored countless verses.
1john 2:22-23 who is a liar but he who denies that JEsus is the Christ? HE is antichrist who denies the father and the son WHo ever denies the son doesnt have the father either...
john 3:18...he who doesnt believe in him (Jesus) is condemned already
rev 20:15 and anyone not found written in the book of Life was cast into the lake of fire
matt 25:41 and He(Jesus) will say to those on the left hand Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devils and his angels.
the whole bible shows the need for Christ to come to earth and die for our sins. and it tells us that to make Christ our Savior and to be cleansed of sin we must repent and believe JEsus is the MEssiah.

i posted this back on page 30. it's not that i'm reluctant to tell you what i believe, it's that your not reading what i write.

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So, you believe in freedom of thought. That's fine. However, I'm inquiring about your beliefs concerning the fate of Christians vs non-Christians. Do you believe in an afterlife? Do you believe in Heaven? Hell? How do you reconcile a loving God with eternal damnation for non-Christians? Its a reasonable question, don't you think?

Christ is the only way to God (as he said) and those make him their Savior go to heaven. (that is what i believe) and those that reject him are condemned to hell (as he said) i reconcile this with the image of a loving God by reading numerous scriptures that say God gives everyone the opportunity to know him. everyone has a chance, and noone has an excuse. i also know that God is a Holy and Just God and can't allow sin to enter heaven. that is why he sent Christ to die for our sins. He gives us so many chances to know him and make Jesus our Savior. the bible says God doesnt want anyone to perish. But people do because the knowingly reject God.

IFeelFree wrote:

. . . Is there an afterlife? A hell? A heaven? What is the fate of Christians and non-Christians when they die? Do you have any beliefs in that regard? Why would you be reluctant to state those beliefs?

John 5:28 speaks of a resurrection to life for all who have died. It includes those who never knew God.

The NT in many places also mentions a heavenly resurrection. We read in Revelation 5:10 that those resurrected are to be "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." That seems reasonable, since the earth is to be inhabited by humans.

So what I believe we are being taught is that any consciousness occurring after death is only through the will of God by means of the resurrection. The punishment, or consequence, for refusing to do the will of God is non existence. And, really, is this not the most reasonable? If those refusing to do God's will were allowed to live, they would be a danger to those who are faithful as well as to each other.

. . . So, you believe that those who do the will of God live (are conscious) after death, while those who don't do the will of God have their consciousness extinguished.

It is interesting that your beliefs seem to be different that those of kate4christ03.

. . . What do you think of reincarnation? Wouldn't it be more loving if God gave all people the time they needed to correct their errors and return to Him?

Are you aware that reincarnation was accepted by the early Christian church, was expounded by the Gnostics, and by many church founders such as Clement of Alexandria (3rd century), Origen (3rd century), and St. Jerome (5th century)? The doctrine of reincarnation was declared a heresy by the second Council of Constantinople because it afforded people the opportunity to postpone salvation and, therefore, weakened the authority of the church. In my view, the confusion that many Christians have about the afterlife is the result of this error. It has resulted in wrong teachings of eternal damnation, the inability to understand the inequalities in life and suffering, and has contributed to mistaken teachings about our inherent nature as guilty and fallen.

IFeelFree wrote:

. . . So, you believe that those who do the will of God live (are conscious) after death, while those who don't do the will of God have their consciousness extinguished.

No. They are not conscious. They are dead and awaiting the resurrecton.

IFeelFree wrote:

It is interesting that your beliefs seem to be different that those of kate4christ03.

Kate is a fine person and we disagree mightily

IFeelFree wrote:

. . . What do you think of reincarnation? Wouldn't it be more loving if God gave all people the time they needed to correct their errors and return to Him?

The resurrection will give all time to correct their errors.

IFeelFree wrote:

Are you aware that reincarnation was accepted by the early Christian church, was expounded by the Gnostics, and by many church founders such as Clement of Alexandria (3rd century), Origen (3rd century), and St. Jerome (5th century)? The doctrine of reincarnation was declared a heresy by the second Council of Constantinople because it afforded people the opportunity to postpone salvation and, therefore, weakened the authority of the church. In my view, the confusion that many Christians have about the afterlife is the result of this error. It has resulted in wrong teachings of eternal damnation, the inability to understand the inequalities in life and suffering, and has contributed to mistaken teachings about our inherent nature as guilty and fallen.

The idea of reincarnation is not supported by the bible. There have been many competing beliefs introduced into nominal christianity in an attempt to widen the narrow gate referred to by Christ in Matthew 7:14. That the Council of Constantinople rejected reincarnation is merely an anomaly. Most of the council's conclusions are/were unscriptural.

From a reverent study of the Bible from an Oriental viewpoint, and from intuitional perception, I am convinced that John the Baptist was, in past lives, the guru of Christ. There are numerous passages in the Bible which infer that John and Jesus in their last incarnations were, respectively, Elijah and his disciple Elisha. (These are the spellings in the Old Testament. The Greek translators spelled the names as Elias and Eliseus; they reappear in the New Testament in these changed forms.)

The very end of the Old Testament is a prediction of the reincarnation of Elijah and Elisha: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." Thus John (Elijah), sent "before the coming . . . of the Lord," was born slightly earlier to serve as a herald for Christ. An angel appeared to Zacharias the father to testify that his coming son John would be no other than Elijah (Elias).

"But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. . . . And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him4 in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Jesus twice unequivocally identified Elijah (Elias) as John: "Elias is come already, and they knew him not. . . . Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." Again, Christ says: "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

When John denied that he was Elias (Elijah), he meant that in the humble garb of John he came no longer in the outward elevation of Elijah the great guru. In his former incarnation he had given the "mantle" of his glory and his spiritual wealth to his disciple Elisha. "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee. . . . And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him."

The roles became reversed, because Elijah-John was no longer needed to be the ostensible guru of Elisha-Jesus, now perfected in divine realization.

When Christ was transfigured on the mountain it was his guru Elias, with Moses, whom he saw. Again, in his hour of extremity on the cross, Jesus cried out the divine name: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. . . . Let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

The resurrection happened 2000 years ago. Do you mean that the dead will experience their own resurrection? Both good and evil people? Are you awaiting Christ to return for a new resurrection? By the way I equate the extinction of consciousness with death. How would the two differ? Also, death isn't death if you can be resurrected. Its more like sleep.

Why, what happens during the resurrection that allows the errors of evil men to be corrected? . . .

The idea is not supported by the bible because it was taken out of the bible. However, there are still passages which only make sense if we assume reincarnation. From Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yoganda:

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From a reverent study of the Bible from an Oriental viewpoint, and from intuitional perception, I am convinced that John the Baptist was, in past lives, the guru of Christ. There are numerous passages in the Bible which infer that John and Jesus in their last incarnations were, respectively, Elijah and his disciple Elisha. (These are the spellings in the Old Testament. The Greek translators spelled the names as Elias and Eliseus; they reappear in the New Testament in these changed forms.)

The very end of the Old Testament is a prediction of the reincarnation of Elijah and Elisha: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." Thus John (Elijah), sent "before the coming . . . of the Lord," was born slightly earlier to serve as a herald for Christ. An angel appeared to Zacharias the father to testify that his coming son John would be no other than Elijah (Elias).

"But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. . . . And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him4 in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Jesus twice unequivocally identified Elijah (Elias) as John: "Elias is come already, and they knew him not. . . . Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." Again, Christ says: "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

When John denied that he was Elias (Elijah), he meant that in the humble garb of John he came no longer in the outward elevation of Elijah the great guru. In his former incarnation he had given the "mantle" of his glory and his spiritual wealth to his disciple Elisha. "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee. . . . And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him."

The roles became reversed, because Elijah-John was no longer needed to be the ostensible guru of Elisha-Jesus, now perfected in divine realization.

When Christ was transfigured on the mountain it was his guru Elias, with Moses, whom he saw. Again, in his hour of extremity on the cross, Jesus cried out the divine name: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. . . . Let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

I'm not trying to negate your beliefs. Its just that they are so different than mine, I find them interesting. I wonder how you justify some of the beliefs so I'm questioning you to see how much you have actually thought about these matters.

Non existence cannot be a meaningful "punishment" if one does not exist to experience said "punishment".

Non existence cannot be a meaningful "consequence" if one does not exist to experience said "consequence".

I believe that Christ is God(there is much scriptural evidence on this) i believe when a person dies they go immediately to heaven or hell. and i believe that more than 144,000 of Gods people will go to heaven. only a small group of "christians" disagree with this. the majority of christianity both catholic and protestant, and the apostles and early church fathers believe as i do.

Kate, how do you know that only a small group of Christians disagree with your rather narrow views? From my experience, very few Christians hold those views. Is this just your anecdotal experience that most Christians believe all of those things, or are you basing this on some kind of survey of Christian beliefs? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm asking how you could possibly know what most Christians believe.

both protestant and catholic churches believe in the doctorines of eternal hell for those that reject Christ and eternity in heaven (for those that are saved, which is more than 144,000). All you have to do is look up each individual churches beliefs and see this. as i said there may be a few churches that deny these things, but i don't know of them. the only group that teaches the annhiliation doctorine(that i'm aware of) is the jw's, and they are also the only group that teaches that there are 2 seperate flocks of Christ's followers; one flock ruling in heaven, and the other flock living on earth. and btw, Christ taught these rather narrow views i have. i didnt come up with them.