Confidence in your beliefs.

kate4christ03 wrote:

so you feel its pretty sane to equate neo and myself with bombwielding murderers bc we believe Jesus is the only way to salvation???

I believe it is sane to equate your beliefs and their beliefs in god.

If I tried to equate your actions, then I would be at fault.

But let's ignore the bombwielding murderers on the Muslim side. Let's compare the 'sane' ones.

Or we could compare the bombwielding Christians with the bombwielding Muslims if you prefer.

It is confoundly unjust, illogical, and inferior to compare the best of your religion or group to the worst of others.

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Quote:

I did not accuse you of being a murderer. You believe that God will send non-Christians to hell so, in a sense, you have God to do the dirty work. Terrorism by proxy.

you compared neo and myself to jihadists. which is ridiculous. and i find it ironic you try to quote Christ etc yet you are scoffing at doctorines that he instated. if you were as openminded as you claim to be, you would have no problem with christianity and its views nor would you make such outrageous comparisons between us and murderers.

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Kate; I think maporch takes issue with those christians who as described by SIR ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE
"I can clearly see that, in honesty, men must either give up war, or else they must confess that the words of the redeemer are too lofty for them, and that there is no longer any use in pretending that His teaching can be reduced to practice. I have seen a Christian minister blessing a cannon which had just been founded, and another blessing a warship as it glided from the slips. They, the so-called representatives of Christ, blessed these engines of destruction which cruel man has devised to destroy and tear his fellow-worms. What would we say if we read in holy writ of our Lord having blessed the battering-rams and catapults of the legions? Would we think that it was in agreement with his teaching?" - Micah Clarke

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kate4christ03 wrote:

you compared neo and myself to jihadists. which is ridiculous. and i find it ironic you try to quote Christ etc yet you are scoffing at doctorines that he instated. if you were as openminded as you claim to be, you would have no problem with christianity and its views nor would you make such outrageous comparisons between us and murderers.

The state of mind that says 'what I believe is right and what you believe is wrong' is ego -- the identification with a mental position. Being "right" places you in a position of imaginary moral superiority in relation to non-Christians. The ego craves that sense of superiority. I support many of the tenets of Christianity but I feel a need to speak out against what I believe are a distortion of Christ's teachings. Christ never intended that people go through life with him as an imaginary friend. Those who believe themselves as right, and others who believe differently are wrong, have a mindset that is in some respects similar to the jihadists. Thankfully, Christ made it clear that we are to forgive others and exhibit tolerance. If Christianity taught death to infidels, I'd be very afraid of you and neo.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

well chum since it was said about neo and myself, i can honestly say that i dont torture or murder others and though i cant say for sure, i doubt neo does either.

I think I'll get a sandwich then.

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Kate - I'd relax. I don't thik he's holding you suspect as a bomb terrorist.

A different example than I'd choose to use, but I think the point is that both the jihadist, neo, and you fundamentally have the same bottom line: a belief in god. The bottom line is not what we choose to do with our beliefs, I'd venture to say that is the top line.
T
K
O

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When I made reference to "What if the human being......" in the context of kate4christ03's unsubstantiated claim as per

Chumly wrote:

kate4christ03 wrote:
.........any religious person who believes they have the right to kill another human being for holding a contradictory religious belief is evil.
What if the human being holding this contradictory religious belief not only believes in but practices torturing and murdering people of "inferior race"?

I was naturally not referring to kate4christ03 or neo for that matter, however this was unsurprisingly lost on kate4christ03 as per

kate4christ03 wrote:

well chum since it was said about neo and myself, i can honestly say that i dont torture or murder others and though i cant say for sure, i doubt neo does either.

thus it seemed most apropos to respond with a non sequitur in kind as per

Chumly wrote:

I think I'll get a sandwich then.

I conclude that it would appear kate4christ03's grasp of logic and congruity is tenuous.

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for all who are giving comments this is (once again) what i was responding to....

Quote:

So, we have confirmation from neologist and kate4chris03, two of our resident Christians, that following Christ is the only way to salvation. It is not hard to understand why many people have a problem with Christians for that reason. Is it very different than the Muslim fanatics who believe that non-Muslims are infidels who need to be converted or destroyed?

and as i have stated its ridiculous and illogical to compare neo and myself and any other christian (or any religious person) who believes wholeheartedly (but peaceably) that their path is the only correct one, to those that murder.

Quote:

Kate; I think maporch takes issue with those christians who as described by SIR ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE

neo i wasn't speaking of marporsche i was referring to ifeel, the only thing i took exception to was marporsche's agreeance of ifeel's opinion of christians.

Quote:

I was naturally not referring to kate4christ03 or neo for that matter, however this was unsurprisingly lost on kate4christ03 as per

chum the context of this particular discussion was referenced to neo and myself and other christians that hold a view of Christ being the only way to salvation. sorry that i naturally assumed, since you were jumping into the discussion, that you may have had something to contribute to the subject.

Quote:

Kate - I'd relax. I don't thik he's holding you suspect as a bomb terrorist.

tko i am relaxed lol. i just find it illogical to compare a person who peaceably believes their path is the only correct one, to a person that believes they have the right to wipe out all who dont agree with them.

i find it humorous that some people tout openmindedness, yet when faced with views contradictory to their own, they condemn. like i said earlier its hypocritical. Yes i do believe Christ is the only way to God, bc he said so. but that doesnt make me comparible to a murderer. and ifeel its evident that you really haven't read anything i have written bc if you had you wouldnt have made that comparision bc i said (several times) that i also believe that every individual has the right to choose their own path.

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kate4christ03,

Between your predilection for the Straw Man fallacy and your unintentional derivations of the "Who's On First?" scenario you certainly have your hands overly full.

"]for all who are giving comments this is (once again) what i was responding to....

Quote:

So, we have confirmation from neologist and kate4chris03, two of our resident Christians, that following Christ is the only way to salvation. It is not hard to understand why many people have a problem with Christians for that reason. Is it very different than the Muslim fanatics who believe that non-Muslims are infidels who need to be converted or destroyed?

and as i have stated its ridiculous and illogical to compare neo and myself and any other christian (or any religious person) who believes wholeheartedly (but peaceably) that their path is the only correct one, to those that murder.

Quote:

Kate; I think maporch takes issue with those christians who as described by SIR ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE

neo i wasn't speaking of marporsche i was referring to ifeel, the only thing i took exception to was marporsche's agreeance of ifeel's opinion of christians.

Quote:

I was naturally not referring to kate4christ03 or neo for that matter, however this was unsurprisingly lost on kate4christ03 as per

chum the context of this particular discussion was referenced to neo and myself and other christians that hold a view of Christ being the only way to salvation. sorry that i naturally assumed, since you were jumping into the discussion, that you may have had something to contribute to the subject.

Quote:

Kate - I'd relax. I don't thik he's holding you suspect as a bomb terrorist.

tko i am relaxed lol. i just find it illogical to compare a person who peaceably believes their path is the only correct one, to a person that believes they have the right to wipe out all who dont agree with them.

i find it humorous that some people tout openmindedness, yet when faced with views contradictory to their own, they condemn. like i said earlier its hypocritical. Yes i do believe Christ is the only way to God, bc he said so. but that doesnt make me comparible to a murderer. and ifeel its evident that you really haven't read anything i have written bc if you had you wouldnt have made that comparision bc i said (several times) that i also believe that every individual has the right to choose their own path.[/quote]

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Having trouble with the quote feature, Chumly? Allow me to cover your post so you cant't edit. Laughing

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and i thought i was the worst quote butcher Laughing

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In many things, Chumly rises above the commonplace.

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Even perfection must have its limitations.

Witness your claim of a look-the-other-way-at-apropos-times deity.

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Chumly wrote:

Even perfection must have its limitations.

Witness your claim of a look-the-other-way-at-apropos-times deity.

Your description, not mine.

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You're welcome to intercede on your own behalf to clarify your belief in a perfect but not all-knowing thing-me-bobber, leaving me to draw the parallels between said thing-me-bobber and myself re: "Even perfection must have its limitations" given that the topic of this thread is "Confidence in your beliefs".

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kate4christ03 wrote:

i find it humorous that some people tout openmindedness, yet when faced with views contradictory to their own, they condemn. like i said earlier its hypocritical.

Here is what you said: "Christ himself said he is the ONLY WAY to God, so other paths or religions, according to Christs words are false." I replied that you are interpreting Christ's words incorrectly. If you take his words literally, then Christ is condemning all non-Christians to hell for all eternity. Do you really believe that? Does that seem consistent with the Christ who preaches love and forgiveness? We're not simply talking about evil people here. We're talking about many good people who happen to be Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. Some of them might never have been exposed to Christianity, or know very little about it. Does it sound logical to you that these people would be condemned?

Quote:

Yes i do believe Christ is the only way to God, bc he said so. but that doesnt make me comparible to a murderer. and ifeel its evident that you really haven't read anything i have written bc if you had you wouldnt have made that comparision bc i said (several times) that i also believe that every individual has the right to choose their own path.

Now you are saying that every individual has a right to choose their own path, but previously you stated that all of these other paths are "false" and cannot lead to God. Therefore, they must lead to hell. All I have been trying to do is to offer an interpretation that avoids this dilemma, but you don't seem interested. You continue to assert a simplistic, literal interpretation that condemns the majority of the world's population to hell. Can you even conceive of the possibility that you have over-simplified Christ's words and are in error? If you really believe what you say, you must feel sad when you're in the company of people of other religions, knowing that they are doomed to an eternity of suffering. No?

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IFeelFree wrote:

kate4christ03 wrote:
i find it humorous that some people tout openmindedness, yet when faced with views contradictory to their own, they condemn. like i said earlier its hypocritical.

Here is what you said: "Christ himself said he is the ONLY WAY to God, so other paths or religions, according to Christs words are false." I replied that you are interpreting Christ's words incorrectly. If you take his words literally, then Christ is condemning all non-Christians to hell for all eternity. Do you really believe that? Does that seem consistent with the Christ who preaches love and forgiveness? We're not simply talking about evil people here. We're talking about many good people who happen to be Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. Some of them might never have been exposed to Christianity, or know very little about it. Does it sound logical to you that these people would be condemned? . . . .

Mind if I butt in? Don't bother answering. I will butt in anyway. It's my obstreperous nature, you know.

The problem with nominal christianity and the hell fire doctrine is just as you pointed out; How could a God who condemned the Baal worshippers for burning their children (alive), how could a God who was described as loving and merciful by Jesus consign humans to an eternal torture?

The answer, of course, is that the doctrine of a fiery hell is a bit of pagan apostasy which, having slithered its way into third century religion, has remained there as an insult to God and a straw man for atheists ever since.

So, if you look at things from the status quo, we live a life sometimes good, sometimes bad, and then we die. A non believer has lost nothing in his disbelief. But the believer has the way opened for him to regain the hope lost by Adam and Eve, namely, life on earth - indefinite life on earth.

I realize this is equivalent to Pascal's wager. Sorry. It holds true, nevertheless.

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neologist wrote:

The problem with nominal christianity and the hell fire doctrine is just as you pointed out; How could a God who condemned the Baal worshippers for burning their children (alive), how could a God who was described as loving and merciful by Jesus consign humans to an eternal torture?

Ok, that's the question. How as a Christian do you answer it?

Quote:

The answer, of course, is that the doctrine of a fiery hell is a bit of pagan apostasy which, having slithered its way into third century religion, has remained there as an insult to God and a straw man for atheists ever since.

If not a fiery hell, than what? What is the purpose of salvation? What are you being saved from? If you don't believe in hell, what happens to genuinely evil men when they die? Do you believe in heaven? (Just the good stuff, and not the bad?) I'm not asking these questions in order to ridicule your faith. I'm asking them to understand how you think. Some of the beliefs of Christians seem so irrational, I wonder how you resolve the cognitive dissonance.

Quote:

So, if you look at things from the status quo, we live a life sometimes good, sometimes bad, and then we die. A non believer has lost nothing in his disbelief. But the believer has the way opened for him to regain the hope lost by Adam and Eve, namely, life on earth - indefinite life on earth.

Indefinite life on earth? How do you figure that? Endless reincarnation, without any final liberation? That's as good as hell to me.

Quote:

I realize this is equivalent to Pascal's wager. Sorry. It holds true, nevertheless.

Pascal's wager is a rather weak argument for belief in God. Is that the best you can do? Is that what motivates your faith?

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IFeelFree wrote:

. . . what happens to genuinely evil men when they die?

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9: 5,6)
The choice is between life and death.

IFeelFree wrote:

Quote:
So, if you look at things from the status quo, we live a life sometimes good, sometimes bad, and then we die. A non believer has lost nothing in his disbelief. But the believer has the way opened for him to regain the hope lost by Adam and Eve, namely, life on earth - indefinite life on earth.

Indefinite life on earth? How do you figure that? Endless reincarnation, without any final liberation? That's as good as hell to me.

"Further, God blessed them and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.""(Genesis 1:28)

"And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance . . ."(Isaiah 65 21-23)

IFeelFree wrote:

Pascal's wager is a rather weak argument for belief in God. Is that the best you can do? Is that what motivates your faith?

No, But it motivated me to investigate.

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neologist,

I asked you a series of straightforward questions and what I get from you are a few quotations of scripture that are wide open to interpretation and don't appear to answer my questions. Is that the best you can do? Do you have any beliefs or convictions relative to these matters? Have you thought it through at all? (Its OK to say, no, I haven't thought all this through, if that is the case.)

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Confidence in your beliefs.

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