Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote: Do you think he had help writing it?
Why do you ask?
Do you think, he got help writing his previous - militant - articles as well?
Because every point he makes backs up the "official" line.
A convincing argument for that he got help.
I wrote this myself, btw.
Walter Hinteler wrote:A convincing argument for that he got help.
I wrote this myself, btw.
I know you think my attitude towards Islam is unreasonable. I agree with you and Dag that its often a gross simplification to point the finger at a single cause. But at the same time its no use pretending that there isnt a problem with (or at least within) Islam...Hussain Butt in the Observer article makes it quite plain
From the article quoted by Dag (who said this btw?)
Quote:This is not about Islam. The UK is at war. It's naive to think those whose country it invaded won't retaliate.
The mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said:
Quote: 'What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq'
and what Hussain Butt former British Islamic jihadist said
Quote:I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.
Steve, I don't think "Islam" is not to blame.... Though I have trouble seeing one "Islam" as there are many Islamic cultures that ultimately interpret it into very different social realities. It is true that Islam as a religion is still waiting for its reformation, but that reformation has already happened for many European citizens who happen to be Muslim at the same time, at least on a personal level.
The quote was by Chew...something. It was one of the comments under the Butt's articles.
It's often difficult to distinguish between religious and political motivation. They get blurred. I'm only advocating complexity of views, from the beginning of this thread. Not discarding your view at all, only offering that it is perhaps only one part of the puzzle and encouraging a wider look at realities, considering all the facets of a conflict that has a long history, is political, religious, social, cultural in nature.... Especially since not all Muslims are terrorists, and we were talking about all of them. Not only the radicals.
dagmaraka wrote:Steve, I don't think "Islam" is not to blame.... Though I have trouble seeing one "Islam" as there are many Islamic cultures that ultimately interpret it into very different social realities. It is true that Islam as a religion is still waiting for its reformation, but that reformation has already happened for many European citizens who happen to be Muslim at the same time, at least on a personal level.
The quote was by Chew...something. It was one of the comments under the Butt's articles.
It's often difficult to distinguish between religious and political motivation. They get blurred. I'm only advocating complexity of views, from the beginning of this thread. Not discarding your view at all, only offering that it is perhaps only one part of the puzzle and encouraging a wider look at realities, considering all the facets of a conflict that has a long history, is political, religious, social, cultural in nature.... Especially since not all Muslims are terrorists, and we were talking about all of them. Not only the radicals.
I know you are being very reasonable. And I am being deliberately unreasonable...perhaps. But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
Steve 41oo wrote: But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
That's something to agree with ...
On the other hand and as second thought: have you ever listened to the creed or heard of "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"?
Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote: But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
That's something to agree with ...
On the other hand and as second thought: have you ever listened to the creed or heard of "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"?
If you are suggesting that the Judeo-Christian tradition is equally fanatical and exclusive, then I dont disagree. But its not Jews or Christians who are causing mayhem everywhere right now. (Just heard Stansted shut)
Steve 41oo wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote: But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
That's something to agree with ...
On the other hand and as second thought: have you ever listened to the creed or heard of "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"?
If you are suggesting that the Judeo-Christian tradition is equally fanatical and exclusive, then I dont disagree. But its not Jews or Christians who are causing mayhem everywhere right now. (Just heard Stansted shut)
I think that if we bombed Israel....or Brooklyn....we would get plenty of mayhem from Jews.
Protestants think Catholics are wrong
Catholics think Jews are wrong
Jews think Muslims are wrong
Muslims think the rest are wrong
I agree with them all.
(Please indulge me in my unhelpful post)
McTag wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote: But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
That's something to agree with ...
On the other hand and as second thought: have you ever listened to the creed or heard of "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"?
If you are suggesting that the Judeo-Christian tradition is equally fanatical and exclusive, then I dont disagree. But its not Jews or Christians who are causing mayhem everywhere right now. (Just heard Stansted shut)
I think that if we bombed Israel....or Brooklyn....we would get plenty of mayhem from Jews.
but the article that you linked to earlier by Hassain? Butt made it quite clear it was not British foreign policy but Islamic theology that was firing terrorism.
Steve 41oo wrote:McTag wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote: But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
That's something to agree with ...
On the other hand and as second thought: have you ever listened to the creed or heard of "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"?
If you are suggesting that the Judeo-Christian tradition is equally fanatical and exclusive, then I dont disagree. But its not Jews or Christians who are causing mayhem everywhere right now. (Just heard Stansted shut)
I think that if we bombed Israel....or Brooklyn....we would get plenty of mayhem from Jews.
but the article that you linked to earlier by Hassain? Butt made it quite clear it was not British foreign policy but Islamic theology that was firing terrorism.
Conceded. Just my little joke.
But, the mullahs have their recruitment made easier by the fact that we're bombing in the ME, surely
I agree with Nazi ideology (or any totalitizing ideology, for that matter) and religion having a similar appeal.
I'd reserve my judgment about the Khmer Rouge, where people weren't killed out of conviction so much. It was hierarchy, order, fear. Most people didn't even know who's in the leadership or what they really want. Just that if you don't obey and kill others, they'll be killed. Or at least to a much larger degree than in, say, Nazi Germany. Then again, who knows... wouldn't want to be unfair to low-ranking German Nazis either... Eh, uncomfortable territory.
Steve 41oo wrote:(Just heard Stansted shut)
A suspicious package was found, planes are still landing.
McTag wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:McTag wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:Steve 41oo wrote: But as far as I'm concerned the same sort of fanatical ideology that inspired some Germans to become nazis, some cambodians to become mass murderers of the Khymer Rouge is infecting some Muslims to become international terrorists. (What could be more fanatical than claiming your people alone are in possession of the final perfect word of God?)
That's something to agree with ...
On the other hand and as second thought: have you ever listened to the creed or heard of "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"?
If you are suggesting that the Judeo-Christian tradition is equally fanatical and exclusive, then I dont disagree. But its not Jews or Christians who are causing mayhem everywhere right now. (Just heard Stansted shut)
I think that if we bombed Israel....or Brooklyn....we would get plenty of mayhem from Jews.
but the article that you linked to earlier by Hassain? Butt made it quite clear it was not British foreign policy but Islamic theology that was firing terrorism.
Conceded. Just my little joke.
But, the mullahs have their recruitment made easier by the fact that we're bombing in the ME, surely
and I'll concede that one...right spent far too much time on a2k today bye se ya
Please can someone speak very slowly and explain to an art student who knows absolutely nothing of politics/world affairs these few questions:
Why do Muslims extremists hate British/american peoples?
What do they hope to achieve by bombing us?
Since there already is a discussion of this in the media and academia, let me launch it off here with the well-known Zakaria's article
Why do they Hate Us? in Newsweek.
Note that the opinions are of the author alone (I have to re-read it, it's an older piece). And also be warned, it's long. But it may be a good starting point for us to have a discussion about this.
WHY DO THEY HATE US?
The Pentacle Queen wrote:Please can someone speak very slowly and explain to an art student who knows absolutely nothing of politics/world affairs these few questions:
Why do Muslims extremists hate British/american peoples?
What do they hope to achieve by bombing us?
Some people in the Middle East have been asking a very similar set of questions about the activities of the American and Brirish armies and air forces in Iraq. Did you miss that?
Zakaria's main answers seem to be Israel and Iraq.
Worthwhile read, though the idea of "containing Sadam militarily" (he wrote it before the war started) didn't go all that well in practice. Although his idea was to just curb his power and not harm people economically (not sure how that's done if you use military power, but nemmind. Too late now).
