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Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 09:55 pm
Reading along ...
Very interesting discussion. I hope there's more to come!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 01:20 am
dagmaraka wrote:

That goes for Europe too. Towards the outside as well as a self-reflecting exercise. Islam, whether "lesser" or "superior" is a European religion now. It just is. Practiced by milions of European citizens. What it means to be British, Dutch, French... is also shifting due to the changing face of Europe. They are there to stay. We can kick and scream, or we can seize it as an opportunity to learn about ourselves and focus constructively on how we are going to cohabitate in Europe in peace. Humiliation, alienation, and ostracism are probably not a ticket to any sort of a harmonious future. But I also have to say that Europe, at least big cities which are most diverse, IS realizing this. And there are many municipal efforts to grapple with it. It will take 2-3 generations for sure, but I am not too pessimistic. Of course, Europe will be a very different place. perhaps I'm a bad patriot, but I actually like the diversity that is growing in Europe. It's somehow more, I don't know...natural. Eh, but again, that's just me.


Yes. True. And we really should forget that

- Islam has been a European religion since nearly it's beginning,
- we Europeans always tried to get rid of 'new religions' (like any others, who are/were predominated by just one religion/church).
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 01:59 am
Leader in today's Observer:


Quote:
Our democracy is the best defence against terrorism

Leader
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer

The 'long war' against terrorism is growing longer every day. The images of police tape around lamp posts or bomb squad specialists searching vehicles are now horribly familiar.

If, as is currently suspected, those behind the most recent attacks are Islamic militants, anyone who expected a sudden drop in threat following Tony Blair's resignation will be disappointed. They should not be. The war in Iraq, as MI5 and MI6 both say, has enhanced the threat from Islamic terrorism but is not its cause. The roots lie in cultural, political, economic, historical and religious factors that stretch back centuries in the Islamic world's relationship with the West. An additional complicating factor has been the emergence of large, newly politicised Muslim populations in European nations. Modern Islamic militancy is not something that will evaporate simply because of a new Prime Minister or a shift in position on Iraq.

This is why the long view taken by those Britons whose phlegmatic calm so discountenances the foreign media is the right one. For terrorists do not pose, as some melodramatically claim, a threat to our way of life. In fact, they show us its strengths. The periods where there has been no terrorist threat to Britons in the past 150 years have been the exception, not the rule, yet we have weathered pretty much everything that has so far been thrown at us. So, it is worth noting, have many of our closest allies. Spain's far younger and far more fragile democracy withstood the Madrid bombings of 2004, as well as the campaigns of ETA. The US survived the shock of 9/11. Our own nation may have been shocked by 7/7 and 21/7, but it has not been significantly weakened.

Some believe that the solution to terrorism is to resolve the myriad grievances the terrorists broadcast so violently. This is a mistake. Many such grievances are imagined - the West does not want to 'dominate the lands of Islam', for example. Many more are simply not Britain's fault; we are not to blame for the parlous economic state of many Islamic countries. Instead, we should remember that it is our way of life, and the attraction it holds, that remains our best weapon. The truth is that our democratic structures, our economy, our values and the society we have built upon them are much stronger than we often think.

They can easily cope with the unpleasant but necessary measures, such as the controversial and currently flawed control orders, that are essential to fight terrorism. In counterterrorist circles, there is much anxious talk about the resilience of modern terrorist networks. There should be some less anxious talk about the resilience of our societies, too.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 02:25 am
My gut reaction is agree with Steve. Islam appears to be sociopathic with respect to modern Western values of freedom and democracy. Some muslim youths grow up with the cognitive dissonance of aspiring to Western values, but lacking the social mobility to converge with host communities. This dissonance can lead to pathologial alternatives like "brotherhoods of the next life" which perniciously fester and support each other in their discontent.

I agree with Harris, that "Political Correctness" which calls for "respect" for religious beliefs does more harm than good when that religion has cast iron linkages with acts of terrorism. We have not seen a single apologist for Islam on this forum who has shown the intellectual ability to deal with this point.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 04:12 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:

- Islam has been a European religion since nearly it's beginning,
- we Europeans always tried to get rid of 'new religions' (like any others, who are/were predominated by just one religion/church).
Tolerance of "other" religions/cultures is admirable and can enrich us all. But we delude ourselves about Islam. Just because we liberal ecumenicals tolerate in fact absolutely defend the rights of others to differ in matters of faith, we assume reasonable people of other religions think the same way. They dont.

"Christian" Europe and the west does indeed tolerate Islam. Islam is completely intolerant of Christianity. Try opening a Church in Saudi Arabia.

To our credit we have left intolerance behind. Islam has not.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 05:17 am
Steve 41oo wrote:

"Christian" Europe and the west does indeed tolerate Islam. Islam is completely intolerant of Christianity. Try opening a Church in Saudi Arabia.


Well, now, ehem, when we're down to the level of this kind of arguments ...

I think, your PM said it correctly:

Quote:
"It's obvious that we have a group of people - not just in this country, but round the world - who're prepared at any time to inflict what they want to be maximum damage on civilians, irrespective of the religion of these people who are killed or maimed are to be," he said.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 06:26 am
fresco wrote:
My gut reaction is agree with Steve. Islam appears to be sociopathic with respect to modern Western values of freedom and democracy. Some muslim youths grow up with the cognitive dissonance of aspiring to Western values, but lacking the social mobility to converge with host communities. This dissonance can lead to pathologial alternatives like "brotherhoods of the next life" which perniciously fester and support each other in their discontent.

I agree with Harris, that "Political Correctness" which calls for "respect" for religious beliefs does more harm than good when that religion has cast iron linkages with acts of terrorism. We have not seen a single apologist for Islam on this forum who has shown the intellectual ability to deal with this point.


Is it not fair to say that it is not Islam per se which is the problem, but a very narrow and aggressive interpretation of Islam which is practised in some quarters?

In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.

Plenty of muslims in this country are horrifed by the violence and call to arms of some of their co-religionists.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 06:49 am
My neighbor, right next door to me infact, is a muslim from Indonesia....he and his American wife moved from there to be away from the scary elements of Islam. He's a super nice guy and I couldn't have a better neighbor.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:20 am
McTag wrote:

Is it not fair to say that it is not Islam per se which is the problem, but a very narrow and aggressive interpretation of Islam which is practised in some quarters?

In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.


Well this is the "correct" opinion. Voiced at all levels from Prime Minister to responsible people on the street. Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).

Quote:
In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.
Surely a rather rosy tinted picture of interfaith relations over the centuries McT?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:27 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).


And that's exactly the result what the BNP and other (neo-)Nazi parties were waiting for.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:35 am
Brand X wrote:
My neighbor, right next door to me infact, is a muslim from Indonesia....he and his American wife moved from there to be away from the scary elements of Islam. He's a super nice guy and I couldn't have a better neighbor.
I'm sure he is. And long may your friendship continue. Perhaps there is a cultural difference between Muslims in the US and in Britain. I read only this morning that in America, Muslims are the first to report suspicious behaviour to the authorities. As it should be. But in Britain Muslims tend to clam up. They're scared of being denounced as a grass or snitch. Islamists working under cover of such organisations as The Muslim Council of Britain, come forward with "legitimate" community greivances, are dutifully listened to by the police, and then either tip off jihadists who might be under surveillance, or find out who in their community might be passing on information about jihadists to the police.

Interesting article in today's Sunday Times by Ed Husain (former self confessed Islamist)

Quote:
Among young Muslims (in the UK) there is a lethal them-and-us mentality
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:37 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Perhaps there is a cultural difference between Muslims in the US and in Britain.


So you're opposed to the new government as well - with Shahid Malik and Sadiq Khan (both Muslims) in as members in it.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:40 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).


And that's exactly the result what the BNP and other (neo-)Nazi parties were waiting for.
And why its so important to explain how one can legitimately be critical of someone for their extremist beliefs, but not for the colour of their skin.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:44 am
steve, i think we practice just the same "us" and "them" mentality.


europe and U.S. are different, yes. but again, i wouldn't confuse the loud minority for all the muslims of britain. most of them are just honest working people who suffer from the reputation reaped by the violent few the most.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:51 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Perhaps there is a cultural difference between Muslims in the US and in Britain.


So you're opposed to the new government as well - with Shahid Malik and Sadiq Khan (both Muslims) in as members in it.
I find it very difficult to follow your logic there Walter.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:56 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
I find it very difficult to follow your logic there Walter.


You said, the problem was Islam:

Steve 41oo wrote:
McTag wrote:

Is it not fair to say that it is not Islam per se which is the problem, but a very narrow and aggressive interpretation of Islam which is practised in some quarters?

In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.


Well this is the "correct" opinion. Voiced at all levels from Prime Minister to responsible people on the street. Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).


And withtwo Muslim ministers in your government, you must have - at least some - problems with it as well.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:59 am
There's already elements of Sharia Law in the UK, no?

Have the Brits adopted an attitude of "if we can't beat them, join them"?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:01 am
Here's one Muslim's voice on the moderate Muslims in Britain. I have my reservations (I, too, think that they are far less mobilized than they should or could be), but it puts some issues on the table. Especially that of trust towards the government that is seen as hypocritical - waging war in a largely Muslim country that lacks credibility on one hand, demanding peace and respect of democratic values of Muslims at home on the other. I know this is vastly simplified, but I can see that if I were a Muslim, I'd have trouble buying into that myself. That is of course no excuse. But it would be a good point to work on for the next government to ease tensions a bit.

source: The New Muslim
Quote:
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:05 am
HokieBird wrote:
There's already elements of Sharia Law in the UK, no?



Britain has slghtly different laws for England, Wales and -especially- Scotland.
As far as I know, they didn't change it to Sharia.

Such would be known, I suppose.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:12 am
dagmaraka wrote:
steve, i think we practice just the same "us" and "them" mentality.


europe and U.S. are different, yes. but again, i wouldn't confuse the loud minority for all the muslims of britain. most of them are just honest working people who suffer from the reputation reaped by the violent few the most.
I understand how it is difficult for "moderate" muslims...(though to digress yet again I wonder how you define that expression...what is for instance a "moderate" Christian? Someone who only believes in 2 out of the 3 trinity? Laughing )

the large majority of Muslims who are as you say honest working people who want nothing but to live their lives suffer whatever they do

if they do nothing they are accused of not exposing militancy

if they do expose the Islamist jihadists among them, they risk real danger from those they denounce

and if they walk down the street with muslim dress, some idiot from the BNP who knows nothing about them other than they are non white tells them to get out of the country for being Asian/Pakistani origin.

What is making their lives so hard? My answer is Islam, not me.
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