Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

That goes for Europe too. Towards the outside as well as a self-reflecting exercise. Islam, whether "lesser" or "superior" is a European religion now. It just is. Practiced by milions of European citizens. What it means to be British, Dutch, French... is also shifting due to the changing face of Europe. They are there to stay. We can kick and scream, or we can seize it as an opportunity to learn about ourselves and focus constructively on how we are going to cohabitate in Europe in peace. Humiliation, alienation, and ostracism are probably not a ticket to any sort of a harmonious future. But I also have to say that Europe, at least big cities which are most diverse, IS realizing this. And there are many municipal efforts to grapple with it. It will take 2-3 generations for sure, but I am not too pessimistic. Of course, Europe will be a very different place. perhaps I'm a bad patriot, but I actually like the diversity that is growing in Europe. It's somehow more, I don't know...natural. Eh, but again, that's just me.

Our democracy is the best defence against terrorism

Leader
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer

The 'long war' against terrorism is growing longer every day. The images of police tape around lamp posts or bomb squad specialists searching vehicles are now horribly familiar.

If, as is currently suspected, those behind the most recent attacks are Islamic militants, anyone who expected a sudden drop in threat following Tony Blair's resignation will be disappointed. They should not be. The war in Iraq, as MI5 and MI6 both say, has enhanced the threat from Islamic terrorism but is not its cause. The roots lie in cultural, political, economic, historical and religious factors that stretch back centuries in the Islamic world's relationship with the West. An additional complicating factor has been the emergence of large, newly politicised Muslim populations in European nations. Modern Islamic militancy is not something that will evaporate simply because of a new Prime Minister or a shift in position on Iraq.

This is why the long view taken by those Britons whose phlegmatic calm so discountenances the foreign media is the right one. For terrorists do not pose, as some melodramatically claim, a threat to our way of life. In fact, they show us its strengths. The periods where there has been no terrorist threat to Britons in the past 150 years have been the exception, not the rule, yet we have weathered pretty much everything that has so far been thrown at us. So, it is worth noting, have many of our closest allies. Spain's far younger and far more fragile democracy withstood the Madrid bombings of 2004, as well as the campaigns of ETA. The US survived the shock of 9/11. Our own nation may have been shocked by 7/7 and 21/7, but it has not been significantly weakened.

Some believe that the solution to terrorism is to resolve the myriad grievances the terrorists broadcast so violently. This is a mistake. Many such grievances are imagined - the West does not want to 'dominate the lands of Islam', for example. Many more are simply not Britain's fault; we are not to blame for the parlous economic state of many Islamic countries. Instead, we should remember that it is our way of life, and the attraction it holds, that remains our best weapon. The truth is that our democratic structures, our economy, our values and the society we have built upon them are much stronger than we often think.

They can easily cope with the unpleasant but necessary measures, such as the controversial and currently flawed control orders, that are essential to fight terrorism. In counterterrorist circles, there is much anxious talk about the resilience of modern terrorist networks. There should be some less anxious talk about the resilience of our societies, too.

- Islam has been a European religion since nearly it's beginning,
- we Europeans always tried to get rid of 'new religions' (like any others, who are/were predominated by just one religion/church).

"Christian" Europe and the west does indeed tolerate Islam. Islam is completely intolerant of Christianity. Try opening a Church in Saudi Arabia.

"It's obvious that we have a group of people - not just in this country, but round the world - who're prepared at any time to inflict what they want to be maximum damage on civilians, irrespective of the religion of these people who are killed or maimed are to be," he said.

My gut reaction is agree with Steve. Islam appears to be sociopathic with respect to modern Western values of freedom and democracy. Some muslim youths grow up with the cognitive dissonance of aspiring to Western values, but lacking the social mobility to converge with host communities. This dissonance can lead to pathologial alternatives like "brotherhoods of the next life" which perniciously fester and support each other in their discontent.

I agree with Harris, that "Political Correctness" which calls for "respect" for religious beliefs does more harm than good when that religion has cast iron linkages with acts of terrorism. We have not seen a single apologist for Islam on this forum who has shown the intellectual ability to deal with this point.

Is it not fair to say that it is not Islam per se which is the problem, but a very narrow and aggressive interpretation of Islam which is practised in some quarters?

In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.

In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.

Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).

My neighbor, right next door to me infact, is a muslim from Indonesia....he and his American wife moved from there to be away from the scary elements of Islam. He's a super nice guy and I couldn't have a better neighbor.

Among young Muslims (in the UK) there is a lethal them-and-us mentality

Perhaps there is a cultural difference between Muslims in the US and in Britain.

Steve 41oo wrote:

Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).

And that's exactly the result what the BNP and other (neo-)Nazi parties were waiting for.

Steve 41oo wrote:

Perhaps there is a cultural difference between Muslims in the US and in Britain.

So you're opposed to the new government as well - with Shahid Malik and Sadiq Khan (both Muslims) in as members in it.

I find it very difficult to follow your logic there Walter.

McTag wrote:

Is it not fair to say that it is not Islam per se which is the problem, but a very narrow and aggressive interpretation of Islam which is practised in some quarters?

In the past, and in various countries, Islam has co-existed peacefully with all other religions in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance, as far as I am aware.

Well this is the "correct" opinion. Voiced at all levels from Prime Minister to responsible people on the street. Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly. But no longer. I think there is a problem with Islam. (meaning of course submission, not peace).

Stop berating Muslims for ?'not doing enough'

By Salma Yaqoob

Earlier this month, Tony Blair made his latest, and hopefully last, foray into Muslim affairs as Prime Minister.
In a speech at Lancaster House in London, to a carefully selected audience, Blair said he wanted the ?'voice of moderation' among Muslims to be heard.
It is difficult not to be cynical about the Prime Minister's motives. In light of the rivers of blood he has helped unleash in Iraq and Afghanistan, Blair's lectures on tackling extremism ring hollow.
While Muslim leaders are constantly berated for ?'not doing enough' to tackle the appeal of Islamic extremism, our Government still refuses to acknowledge the role of its foreign policy in fertilizing the ground from which such extremism crops.
This denial of their own culpability for the appeal of religious sectarianism makes more difficult any serious discussion with Muslims on how best to marginalize it.
Instead Muslims are told, somewhat patronisingly, that we need to achieve a greater understanding of ?'British values' like democracy, rule of law and equal rights from a Government that wages an illegal war based on lies and is planning the introduction of internment in all but name.
Yet for all Blair's talk about wanting to find moderate Muslim voices, despite the barbarity of the 7/7 bombers, despite all the lurid newspaper headlines about intolerant Muslim opinion, the striking character of Muslim reaction post 9/11 was exactly its moderation.
The overwhelming bulk of Muslims expressed their dissent with Government policy either via protest on the streets or at the ballot box.
Crucially, it was not the religious sectarians in the Muslim community who harnessed anger at New Labour's most recent wars. Rather, it was unity between Muslims and broad swathes of British public opinion, united in their opposition to war, that became the engine to direct anti-war anger into democratic and overwhelmingly peaceful channels.
As millions marched, diverse in their creed and colour, overwhelmingly non-Muslim but in solidarity with people of overwhelmingly Muslim lands, the British anti-war movement did more to ease the strain between Muslim and British identity than any number of Government citizenship classes.
Most Government statements about the ?'threat of Muslim extremism' today deliberately misses the point.
The dominant character of Muslim radicalism today is not towards Al Qa'ida style religious extremism but in the opposite direction: towards political engagement in new, radical and progressive coalitions and dialogue that seek to unite Muslim with non-Muslim in parliamentary and extra-parliamentary strategies to effect change.
The anti-war movement is the most striking example of these developments. But it is not the only one.
Three week's ago, the Mayor of London, the British Muslim Initiative, the Director of the Jewish Council for Racial Equality and a wide array of politicians and trade unionists launched the Coalition to defend freedom of religious and cultural expression.
Its origin lies in response to the threat of Islamophobia.
Its aim is to counteract the view that "different communities and faith groups openly expressing their culture or faith threaten community relations in Britain."
Two weeks ago the main speaker at the Muslim Council of Britain's Annual General Meeting was TUC General Secretary, Brendan Barber.
His appearance builds on the joint statement issued by both organizations last year pledging to encourage more Muslims to join trade unions and to tackle racism at work and in society.
This relationship is an important one and the MCB should be commended for their work in fostering it.
Muslim communities invariably find themselves living in areas with highest levels of unemployment, the poorest housing and worst wages.
It is easy in such circumstances for deprived communities to take their frustrations out on each other.
I am an elected councillor in for an inner city ward in Birmingham. When I hold my advice surgeries it is not uncommon to hear Pakistanis stuck in overcrowded conditions complain about Somali's coming over hear and jumping the housing waiting list.
In late 2005, similar tensions and competition between Asians and African-Caribbean's over scarce resources in the Lozells area of Birmingham spilled over into disturbances that left two people dead, sparked by an unfounded rumour that Asian men had raped a young Jamaican girl.
In the recent council elections in the city, the BNP polled strongest in deprived white working class communities who feel abandoned and betrayed after 10 years of Blairism.
The appeal of extremism, whether it is that of the far right or religious in nature, thrives on the politics of despair and hopelessness. Fraying of community cohesion across communities is invariably connected with competition and tensions over resources. The antidote to both lies in our ability to forge resistance and unity with non-Muslims in the face of injustice and inequality.
This is exactly the kind of work that Muslims are increasingly engaged in. Rather than Muslims living segregated lives and holding intolerant opinions, recent surveys suggest the opposite as The Muslim News columnist Shelina Zahra Janmohamed has highlighted. It is worth repeating her point. A Gallup poll of Muslims in London found that Muslims' loyalty to Britain is greater than the general public; a national poll conducted by Populus found that: "only 33 per cent of the general population said they had Muslims as close personal friends" while "almost 90 per cent of Muslims said they had close non-Muslim friends"; and a study commissioned by the Home Office comparing boys at a predominantly white school in Burnley with boys in a predominantly Asian school in Blackburn concluded: "it might be reasonable...to suggest that it is the Asian-Muslim students in both the mixed and mono-cultural schools of Burnley and Blackburn who are in fact the most tolerant of all."
As Blair prepares to pack his bags, there is an opportunity and challenge for a new dialogue as to how we can best we deepen community cohesion. The sooner this Government stops demonising Muslim communities and their organisations when they have the temerity to disagree, the better. It's called democracy.
Salma Yaqoob is Respect Party Councillor in Sparkbrook, Birmingham and National Vice-Chair of Respect.

There's already elements of Sharia Law in the UK, no?

steve, i think we practice just the same "us" and "them" mentality.


europe and U.S. are different, yes. but again, i wouldn't confuse the loud minority for all the muslims of britain. most of them are just honest working people who suffer from the reputation reaped by the violent few the most.