Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

Thomas wrote:

I just read the article on the last page, and saw something that does worry me. It appears that in the UK, the government lets minorities settle even criminal cases out of court. Although I can see a the merits of this in tort and contract cases, I find it objectionable in criminal cases, seeing that crimes are offenses against the state.

I couldnt agree more. But what is really going on here is a toxic mix of laziness and not wanting to interfere for politically correct motives. In a criminal case such as a stabbing the victim may be encouraged not to press charges. That is he/she tells the police that although a crime has been committed they dont want the police to take any action. The police, being human, say ok and cross it out from their list of things to do. No doubt they sometimes feel that interferring in a "community" matter might only increase tensions...so they (quite wrongly imo) let it drop. This happens quite a bit in so called "honour crime".

Then of course a few "elders" get together and the thing is sorted out in a "Sharia" court. In the long term it undermines the authority of the police and the rule of law.

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Certainly that has to do with different legal systems as well: stabbing someone would be a crime, where the prosecution HAD to act here ex officio. (And it would be a crime as well, if the police didn't report it to the prosecution.)

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Certainly that has to do with different legal systems as well: stabbing someone would be a crime, where the prosecution HAD to act here ex officio. (And it would be a crime as well, if the police didn't report it to the prosecution.)

That's the law in Germany, as I understand it. Is British law different on this point?

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http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2115929,00.html

Blair launches stinging attack on 'absurd' British Islamists

Nicholas Watt, political editor
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer

Tony Blair has launched a powerful attack on 'absurd' British Islamists who have nurtured a false 'sense of grievance' that they are being oppressed by Britain and the United States.

In his most outspoken remarks on Islamists, the former Prime Minister warns that Britain is in danger of losing the battle against terrorists unless mainstream society confronts the threat.

Blair's remarks, in which he also attacks some civil liberty campaigners as 'loopy loo', were made in a Channel 4 documentary recorded last Tuesday on the eve of his departure from Downing Street.

'The idea that as a Muslim in this country that you don't have the freedom to express your religion or your views, I mean you've got far more freedom in this country than you do in most Muslim countries,' Blair told Observer columnist Will Hutton, who presents the documentary.

'The reason we are finding it hard to win this battle is that we're not actually fighting it properly. We're not actually standing up to these people and saying, "It's not just your methods that are wrong, your ideas are absurd. Nobody is oppressing you. Your sense of grievance isn't justified."'

Blair held out the example of the overthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan - criticised by Islamists as an example of the heavy-handed imperial West oppressing Muslims - to highlight unfounded claims of grievance. He asked how it is possible to claim that Afghanistan's Muslims are being oppressed when the Taliban 'used to execute teachers for teaching girls in schools'.

Blair added: 'How are [we] oppressing them? You're oppressing them when you support the people who are trying to blow them up.'

Blair, who normally chooses his language carefully when he talks about Islamists, also takes a swipe at critics who accused him of undermining civil liberties. 'When I'm trying to change the law in order to make it easier to deport people who engage in terrorism - the idea that that's an assault on hundreds of years of British civil liberties is completely absurd. Some of what is written on this is loopy-loo in its extremism.'

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Thomas wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Certainly that has to do with different legal systems as well: stabbing someone would be a crime, where the prosecution HAD to act here ex officio. (And it would be a crime as well, if the police didn't report it to the prosecution.)

That's the law in Germany, as I understand it. Is British law different on this point?

Well honestly I dont know, not being a lawyer. But the police do have the power of discretion, i.e. can decide not to press charges.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

the large majority of Muslims who are as you say honest working people who want nothing but to live their lives suffer whatever they do

if they do nothing they are accused of not exposing militancy

if they do expose the Islamist jihadists among them, they risk real danger from those they denounce

and if they walk down the street with muslim dress, some idiot from the BNP who knows nothing about them other than they are non white tells them to get out of the country for being Asian/Pakistani origin.

What is making their lives so hard? My answer is Islam, not me.

"Islam", entailing religious, cultural, political and social codes, would be a part of the answer, yes. Us, our fear, our lack of knowledge and our unwillingness to gain it, another part. There might be other parts to it, too. Again, nothing out in the social world is simple so that it can be answered with a pointed finger.

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There is a strong feeling in the air that many people are becoming very uneasy and extremely dissatisfied about the influence of religion in the life of our society.

A best-selling book here at the moment is "God Is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. Recently "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins attracted similar interest and comment.

A good thing, in my view.

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dagmaraka wrote:

"Islam", entailing religious, cultural, political and social codes, would be a part of the answer, yes. Us, our fear, our lack of knowledge and our unwillingness to gain it, another part. There might be other parts to it, too. Again, nothing out in the social world is simple so that it can be answered with a pointed finger.

So if we had a better understanding of Islam, muslims wouldn't bomb our cities? I just heard our new Home Secretary saying a "perverted ideology" motivates terrorists. Maybe. But you cant draw a convenient line between good true peaceful Islam and bad perverted wicked Islam at the point violence begins. Islam is the inspiration behind it all. Its time we recognised that and stopped making excuses or blaming ourselves. Without Islam there would be no cries of "god is great" just before the bomb detonates, no martyrdom, no heavenly rewards of virgins and no dreams of a global caliphate.

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no, you were talking about a regular working muslim, or a woman wearing hijab, having a hard life due to the militant terrorists. your question was: "What makes their life so hard?
To which there is no one simple answer, I believe.
I didn't say anything else.

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An article by an ex-militant muslim in yesterday's paper shed some light on this:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html

which I think is very good, and the fellow should be commended for writing it.

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Also, I am not blaming "us". All I'm saying we shouldn't "blame" ONLY them. In fact, I am not looking to blame anybody. I am looking for causes and solutions. (See, there it is. Us and them again.)
It's very easy and convenient to say: It's all Islam's fault... because then you can do nothing. You really cannot. What are you going to do against this big monster called Islam? Just shrug shoulders.
But once you accept it's a part of more complicated social reality, and that perhaps alienation of Muslims is ALSO (again, not only. Do not twist what I say) due to social situations, discrimination at jobs and in public, lack of quality education, lack of a vision of a future for the young Muslim people in Europe.... then you have something to work with. On the level of streets, communities, cities, regions and nations. Policies, strategies. That is what I am interested in. What they are and what they should be.

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While I toatlly agree with you, dgmar, I think, it's the easiest way to say "it's all their fault, its# only because Islam i bad etc etc

This doesn't only lead to what you said, it's gives a good conscience as well: I/we made nothing wrong at all: it's all and only the others.

I don't think, life and problems in everyone's lif as well as in plotics and re terrorism are so easy as to be reduced to just and only one single reason, be it religion, race, skin colour or whatever.

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Walter, I didn't really say anything leads to anything. Only when you see a more complex social reality, you have more space for options. Simple.
Not that necessarily anyone would automatically do anything with that. (Though things are happening on city levels that look promising already). I'm just explaining what I'm interested in, really.

Great article, McTag. Comments, too.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
"Islam", entailing religious, cultural, political and social codes, would be a part of the answer, yes. Us, our fear, our lack of knowledge and our unwillingness to gain it, another part. There might be other parts to it, too. Again, nothing out in the social world is simple so that it can be answered with a pointed finger.
So if we had a better understanding of Islam, muslims wouldn't bomb our cities? I just heard our new Home Secretary saying a "perverted ideology" motivates terrorists. Maybe. But you cant draw a convenient line between good true peaceful Islam and bad perverted wicked Islam at the point violence begins. Islam is the inspiration behind it all. Its time we recognised that and stopped making excuses or blaming ourselves. Without Islam there would be no cries of "god is great" just before the bomb detonates, no martyrdom, no heavenly rewards of virgins and no dreams of a global caliphate.

Exactly.

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One of the comments under the article which I find relevant to what Brand X quoted above:

Quote:

Did people blame the Pope or Catholicism for the terrorism of the IRA? Were Catholics asked to renounce terrorism?

This is not about Islam. The UK is at war. It's naive to think those whose country it invaded won't retaliate.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Also, I am not blaming "us". All I'm saying we shouldn't "blame" ONLY them. In fact, I am not looking to blame anybody. I am looking for causes and solutions. (See, there it is. Us and them again.)
It's very easy and convenient to say: It's all Islam's fault... because then you can do nothing.

You make a good point. But I'm not blaming Muslims in general for the bad things some Muslims do. My ire is directed at the ideas these people have in their heads which inspire them to do wicked things. Out of their own mouths they admit to doing what they do in the name of Allah...Islam.

I dislike Islam for two reasons. First their assertion that muslims alone are in possession of the perfect unchanging and final word of God. (As given to an illiterate goat keeper). Second their intolerance of anyone who challenges that assertion.

I'm not against religion per se, but neither do I accept that all religions are of equal value or merit.

Does this mean I think all Islam is "bad"? Perhaps. But on the other hand what "good" has it done? I cant think of any "good" thing or idea which Islam has given the world which only came about because of a belief in Mohammed as the last prophet of Allah.

You say nothing can be done. I think there is plenty to be done, starting by challenging the more absurd ideas within Islam without fear of violent retribution.

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Actually, many Muslims, especially those in Europe, are already doing that, I think. Simply by living modern lifestyles, taking from Koran what is most important to them, and leavin the rest behind. Same happened with Christianity. Interpretations of the Bible changed dramatically over time, too.

I don't like any religion myself. I am not much more fond of Christianity than of Islam. Much of horrid violence in the world's history was done in the name of the Christian God.

But we have a situation and we have to deal with it. I believe that what young Muslims need is a vision of quality future in the society for themselves. For that, their religion has to make sense in the modern society. Most of them know little about their religion. They have intense feelings about it, but little is done to reach out to them and offer them space to hash it out. There are projects that work along these lines, mostly run by other Muslims. There was a "Beyond Midnight University" in Birmingham that paid attention to street youth and offered discussion clubs.
There was also a journey to Mecca organized for a group of Muslims returning to prison (gang members), most of them secular. Still , the spiritual journey helped all of them (it was a group of 15) to stay out of the jail afterwards. Only 2 became religious (as in mosque-going, not bomb-setting) Muslims. Rest remained secular, but stayed away from violence and crime.
Many of Muslims are confused, their identities in flux. I believe that is the area that needs most work. Sometimes attention alone, a listening ear, offering space for expression, helps. Other times help of other Muslims is needed, perhaps in coalition with non-Muslims. It is about engaging young people, rather than shunning them. Working with them rather than spying on them. Prevention and intervention rather than defense mode and reaction.

All of which is difficult, messy and slow. There is no quick solution. But there IS space for solutions. Step by step, starting small. It's already happening, at least in some places.

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McTag wrote:

An article by an ex-militant muslim in yesterday's paper shed some light on this:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html

which I think is very good, and the fellow should be commended for writing it.

excellent article thanks. Do you think he had help writing it?

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Steve 41oo wrote:

Do you think he had help writing it?

Why do you ask?
Do you think, he got help writing his previous - militant - articles as well?

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...eh, that long-winded post above just wanted to say that religion (Islam,too) can be also used for positive change. I guess that point got obfuscated by my yammering.

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Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

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