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Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2007 11:33 pm
nimh wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It is not, at all, true that the international and (especially) American press does not pay attention to violence that is not born of violence. Offer your proof if you can.

What on earth are you on about? Where did Dag ever say that? (and what is it even supposed to mean?)'t

Taken a while to find this unanswered post.

Actually I can only imagine that my post involved a typo because I can't explain what it meant either. I can, however, explain a comment that reads: "It is not, at all, true that (the press) does not pay attention to violence that is not born of Islamic extremism."

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Obviously, violence is an integral part of the human experience and it is happening every which way around the globe, but should the press report on a isolated incident in Zimbabwe over a systematic run of killing perpetuated by extremist muslims?

Well thats where perspective comes in, or should come in, at least to some elemental degree.

You compare a hypothetical "isolated incident in Zimbabwe" with "a systematic run of killing perpetuated by extremist muslims".

In truth, of course, what has been taking place in Zimbabwe has been a systematic run of torturing, killing, and starving of anyone deemed a potential part of any future protest; the bulldozering of entire city parts deemed potentially unreliable.

In truth, more people have suffered in Zimbabwe alone by the one petty dictator's totalitarianism, than have in all of Europe combined by Islamist terrorism. 700 000 people have lost their homes, their livelihoods or both, in Zimbabwe, in just the last two years. Seven hundred thousand people.

Good point. My argument was obviously flawed.

Now does this mean that Islamist terrorism is A-OK? Course not. Or that it is a mere trifle? Course not.

What it does mean is that you are, in your post here, showcasing a school example of the kind of myopia that Dag may have tried reflecting a saner sense of perspective against.

Those, like you, who describe Islamist terrorism as a Black Death-like scourge of today's mankind that makes all other organised political terror shrink to mere "occassional violence of other extremists" in comparison, have not just gotten imprisoned by a ludicrous loss of perspective. They are also showcasing the exact incredulously limited horizon that Dag was describing re the US media. You proved her point.

I mean, for God's sake, listen to yourself:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
When Nazi Germany engaged in it's unholy and violent attempt to subjugate the world, it was not the only source of violence on earth.

Would dagmarka, then, have bleated about how the press focused only on germanic violence?

Anyone who equates the current crop of Islamist violence with the havoc wrecked by Nazism has lost all and any sense of perspective.

Not necessarily. What seperates the Muslim Extremists from the Nazis in means, not intent. Would you be so quick to scoff at someone warning of the dangers on the Nazis in the early 30's?

The Nazis killed six million Jews alone. Osama bin Laden had three thousand Americans killed. I'm sorry, but let's be brutally cold-minded here. Add the thousands of London, Madrid, the hundreds who were killed in terrorist attacks in Turkey, Morocco, and you still have fewer people than were killed in any of the myriad civil wars that accompanied the Cold War throughout the developing world. Even the Taliban in Afghanistan, in all their brutal primitivity, did not murder more than a range of brutal dictatorships on the left and the right did in their time during the Cold War.

F*ck, more people have died in the Congo over the past decade, than at the hands of all Islamist terrorist attacks across the world added up. Do you know how many people have died in the civil wars in Congo over the past decade? Care to make a guess? Do you perhaps think it's comparable to Iraq, the bloodiest of all war grounds of Islamists yet, if you would choose to frame the war there as such? Think again.

In between three comma seven and four comma six MILLION people died in the civil wars in Congo, during the last ten years. And not an Islamist in sight. This is what you're trying to describe as the pesky "occassional violence of other extremists" that, whether it is Zimbabwe- or Germany-bound, pales in significance compared to the one Big Battle against Evil we face.

Believe it or not, but even today, Islamist terrorism is still responsible for a mere minority of the victims of state and non-state terrorism across the world. Does that make the actual horror of its attacks any less? No. Does it make the brainwashed hate of their perpetrators any less venal or fearsome? No. Does it mean we need to be any less alert to their networks, their plots, their propoganda? No.

But get a grip, for chrissakes. It's hardly suddenly the only game in town. It's hardly the only thing we should worry about or focus on, to the marginalisation of all "occasional" violence from other camps. We've seen worse, a lot worse. The Yugoslav wars were worse to the nth, in sheer numbers of victims, than anything the Muslim terrorists have done in Europe and the US combined.

Islamists seek to conquer the West. Should the West fall, imagine the chaos. True enough that numerically there are greater incidents of slaughter than those perpetrated by Islamists, but as tragic as it may be, endless Congolese deaths will have nary a perceptible impact on The World. More's the pity and such is hardly an endorsement of The West, but imagine a world where the values and virtues of The West do not, at all, come into play.

Men slaughter one another with obscene ease. This is as it has been and as it, tragically, will be. However, when the slaughter is focused on ideals rather than on more profane considerations of personal power, tribal interests and pure sadism, the stakes are much higher and the numbers of casualties are of disproportionate signifigance.


Now I know that the US had not encountered mass terrorism on its own soil before, in the way that Europe has had a long tradition of having to counter. So I realise that the trauma hit all the harder. But you had three thousand people dying and you're equating it with Hitler

You forget the vast number of Americans who died in the effort to rid Europe of it's internally nurtured cancer. Spare me the European angst of localized WWII death and destruction. Tell me why my grandfather needed to die on the beaches of Normandy. Tell me why my uncle lost his leg in the same battle. I think America has earned the right to judge the importance of idealogical struggles.

In your eagerness to reduce all the world's chaos, suffering, and political fanaticisms to one, huge, all-overshadowing, all-explaining epic struggle between Good and Evil, you have succumbed to outright hysteria now.

And you have succumbed to defusing the impact of Evil as some sort of mindless natural element. Sit back and enjoy your broad perspective that allows you your sense of superiority, and when you no longer have the freedom to post on this forum, perhaps you will remember the hysteria of Finn./quote]
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 04:34 am
Well I'm not in a good mood this morning. Turned on the radio to find a BBC investigation into "honour" killings reveals the problem is much more serious and widespread than thought, and the recent high profile murder case is by no means an isolated incident.

In a nutshell it is common practise in Britain for muslim males to beat torture maim and murder women who they deem to have brought "dishonour" on them. Often its done by contract using violent islamists from Pakistan. The women are tracked down and mutilated or killed for wearing the wrong clothes, having the wrong sort of boyfriend, dancing, wearing make up, or generally being westernised. (Despite being born in England) The woman who was murdered recently and her body buried in a suitcase had gone to the police 4 times to say her life was in danger. The police did nothing to protect her because it was seen as an ethnic or family dispute, and they did not want to exacerbate community tensions i.e they didnt want to upset the PC brigade. Which gave them a neat excuse for not doing their job.

So I thought very sad but of course its only a minority of muslim males who behave in this way, the vast majority are peaceful law abiding citizens.

Just as its only a tiny minority who push heroin from Afghanistan to disaffected British youth. A few more have expressed support for al Qaida and bin Laden, but they are still a minority.

And by no means is it a majority of muslims who want to see sharia law in Britain, who push their own version of political islam in university campuses and organise violent demonstrations against free speech, against Salman Rushdie and Danish cartoons.

Then there is the minority determined to cause trouble in schools hospitals and for public services by demanding special treatment to accomodate their inappropriate clothing, or just because they are muslim.

As gambling is unlawful under islam, it means Pakistani gambling cartels resort to illegal methods and violence. The murder of Bob Woolmer (sorry naturally caused death by broken neck) had nothing to do with the fact that he was going to expose corruption in cricket. And nothing to do with the fact that a lot of money was made on Pakistan losing to Ireland, a country where most people know nothing about cricket and care less.

Have I mentioned the small minority of muslims who are so infected with islam that they believe ridding the world of Jews and christians is gods will? Who believe they brought down USSR in Afghanistan and now want to do the same to Western society and establish the global caliphate?

There are about 1.5m muslims in the UK. The security services said recently they were closely monitoring 1600 individuals 200 active terrorist cells and 30 specific plots. Of course its only a minority of Muslims, the vast majority are peaceful and loyal citizens. Aren't they? How many more times is it necessary to qualify a description of islam-inspired mayhem by stating its only a minority...

Was the Pakistani spokesman for islamic affairs speaking for a minority when he renewed calls for Salman Rushdie to be killed? Or was he playing to the gallery, knowing it would be wildly popular. (The same man called for Osama bin Laden to be honoured with the title Saifullah...Sword of Allah..because Rushdie was given a knighthood for his services to literature)

Well I'm sorry but I've just about had enough. You may call me a racist...I really dont care but I most certainly am prejudiced against Islam (and islamists of whatever colour or race). If a phobia is an irrational fear, then islamophobia is an irrational fear of Islam. But there is nothing irrational about fearing or being prejudiced against a set of ideas (Islam) which inspires muslims to kill me or my fellow citizens.

At first I thought it was just a few radical islamists that the west had trained up and pointed at the Russians in Afghanistan who had turned around and "blown back". Then I thought it was about resources, oil and land and not religion. But now its patently clear that it is indeed Islam which is at the root of the problem. Islam is at war with the West and western ideas, and we are justified in defending ourselves.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 07:25 am
Steve, it is, of course deplorable and British and other governments have every right to do what is in their power to stop it.

I know many Muslims, some from Britain (Birmingham and London) that deplore that tradition just as much as you and I do. They would tell you, as they told me, that it is NOT Islam as a religion, but rather Islamic culture as it developed that is to blame. Which, of course, doesn't change the reality on the street, but it is important to recognize, since it offers space for action. There already are many initiatives where young Muslims are approached to learn more about Islam, Islam as a peaceful religion that it is for many. Most of the youngsters are radicalized politically, not religiously. They very much identify as Muslims, but often have very little idea of what Islam really entails... but that's for another discussion, I digressed (need my morning coffee!)
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 07:50 am
dagmaraka wrote:
Steve, it is, of course deplorable and British and other governments have every right to do what is in their power to stop it.

I know many Muslims, some from Britain (Birmingham and London) that deplore that tradition just as much as you and I do. They would tell you, as they told me, that it is NOT Islam as a religion, but rather Islamic culture as it developed that is to blame. Which, of course, doesn't change the reality on the street, but it is important to recognize, since it offers space for action. There already are many initiatives where young Muslims are approached to learn more about Islam, Islam as a peaceful religion that it is for many. Most of the youngsters are radicalized politically, not religiously. They very much identify as Muslims, but often have very little idea of what Islam really entails... but that's for another discussion, I digressed (need my morning coffee!)
I'm tempted to agree with you but sorry I no longer can. As soon as something deplorable is done in the name of allah, out come the excuses that the perpetrator was not a true muslim. Well what was he a Jehovah's Witness? Is Osama bin Laden a true muslim or is he a Catholic? The violence we see has its origin in the backward repressive intolerant religion which goes by the name Islam and the "Islamic culture" it produced. Its time to point the finger where the blame lies, and thats not with a few misguided believers or with "cultural pressures" but with the religion itself.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 03:15 pm
well then we'll just have to agree to disagree. The Muslims and students of Islam that I know are all peacefull people and what I wrote above is actually coming from them, not me.
Bible, just like Quran, has some nasty stuff in it,including torture, slavery, inferiority of women... you name it. How it was practiced in societies is based on their interpretations, which in turn shapes culture. And culture shapes interpretations. So yes, I do firmly believe it is explained by culture, not religion itself.
Besides, I don't like generalizations. They are dangerous and unfair. And don't help analysis and solution-seeking.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 04:59 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
I don't like generalizations. They are dangerous and unfair. And don't help analysis and solution-seeking.
that might be true during peace time. But we are at war with Islam, or rather Islam has decided to attack the West, which amounts to the same thing. The object now is to understand islam in order to destroy it. Again I'm sorry if I sound alarmist but I think there is a critical battle of ideas going on, which the west must (and in fact quite easily will) win.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 05:19 pm
Europe will not be able to destroy Islam.

Hopefully it will be able to understand it a little.

Europe will also never be the same. Muslims are there to stay. Many are born there. Regular, modern citizens of European countries, that happen to go to the mosque rather than the church. Some of them are insane, just like some of the 'white' people are. After all, they are just that. People.
Europeans have to re-examine their own identity, too. It's also changing, as identities tend to. That is uncomfortable, but not life threatening.

World is not black and white, zero-sum, win or lose. There is a lot of space for the inbetween.

I see where you're coming from though. I know the reality, and it is certainly complex. I just don't happen to see it the way you do.
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InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 10:12 pm
Steve41oo wrote:
Again I'm sorry if I sound alarmist but I think there is a critical battle of ideas going on, which the west must (and in fact quite easily will) win.


If in fact the west will quite easily win then there is nothing to be alarmed about, right?

I think that if people want to live their lives conservatively according to the customs of their cultures then they should be allowed to do so as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others to live their lives as liberally or conservatively as they wish as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others to do the very same thing.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 03:45 am
Western ideas easily beat Islamic ideas. At the intellectual level the battle is already won. The muslims fear secularism. They feel under threat from facts and ideas that expose Islam for the absurdity that it is. They therefore close ranks close minds and resort to violence. That's something to be alarmed about.

Threatening to kill Salman Rushdie is a case in point. His book The Satanic Verses was an oblique attack on the mad mullahs who use religion to get power. Their response was to ban muslims from reading the book and issued a fatwa calling for his murder. Pathetic and alarming at the same time.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 08:21 am
Which Muslims are you talking about? Turks? Moroccans? Pakistanis? There is no monolithic "Muslims" group. There are many, incredibly diverse groups with their own ideas, needs, fears, hopes, often disagreeing between themselves and having drastically different approach to secularity, religion, democracy, etc... The "Muslims" that you talk about remind me an awful lot of this monster that used to live under my bed when I was a kid.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 08:22 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Western ideas easily beat Islamic ideas.


That's some statement. Care to support it?
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 08:23 am
bm
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 05:25 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Western ideas easily beat Islamic ideas.


That's some statement. Care to support it?
The European Enlightenment. Voltaire Rouseau

Schiller

Adam Smith

James Watt

Goethe

Shakespeare

Newton

Einstein

Gallileo

Copernicus

Bertrand Russell

Hubble

I could go on...

...all make so called Islamic scholars look like intellectual pigmies. Please give an example of a world significant idea or invention that has come from Islam in the last 500 years.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 06:32 pm
those are authors, thinkers, playwrights as far as i can see. Not ideas per se. But nevermind. I grew up in the same Western culture that you did. As you well know yourself, they did not teach us much about culture and science in other cultures (Asia, Africa included). I do not need to prove anything to you. If you care, you may just start with wikipedia ("Islamic science" for starters) and follow links from there on contribution of Islamic and Arabic cultures (multiple) to science. There is tons of materials out there...but you'd have to want to learn and actually have an open mind towards it
As an astute student of Copernicus, Galileo or Hubbel, you are surely aware of contributions of arabic astronomy to the field.... but nevermind that either.

I don't know much about Islamic science or philosophy. I am learning though, because it's clear to me that our culture is changing forever and I would like to know my co-citizens, where they come from, what they cherish, etc.

I do know about "Western" though. And I will never say it's superior to any other, especially in the world history, the stream of ideas, inventions, and thoughts were closely intertwined. We owe much of our development to China, india, Egypt... But you do know that. Our civilization indeed strived for the last half a millenium, but that is not a long time in human history. A drop in a bucket in fact. And we're in decline, let's face it. India and China will gain more and more influence in economy, and with that will come culture, including art, science, history, philosophy, you name it. You don't have to like it, but closing up to it will make that realization all the more painful. your choice.

I have no idea why you're feeling so violently Eurocentric,that is also your choice. As I said, we just will not agree and that is totally fine by me. But at this point it is no longer a pleasant discussion, I have to confess. Seems like you're not only waging war with Islamic world, but also with whoever does not see it as devastatingly as you do... also your choice. I have mine, and that is to not come back here if you continue in the same hateful tone. I like you as a person and your attitude on this is something I don't understand (well, I do understand, but cannot identify). My world has many colors other than black and white and I happen to have many Muslim friends, none of whom fit anything you were describing. Thus your writing is sometimes kinda offensive or hurtful to me personally, as it insults people that I love.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 08:27 pm
Looks like you're going to have to submit, Steve.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 04:09 am
I'm not feeling violently "eurocentric" or anything else. It is my contention that religion has curtailed personal freedoms and the development of society generally in the middle east, whereas in Europe with the Reformation and the Enlightenment we have been able to break free from the deadhand of religious dogma giving rise to a flowering of the arts and sciences which has produced the modern world.

Of course there have been significant contributions from the Islamic world. But the east became a repository of ancient Greek and Egyptian knowledge during the so called dark ages.

Its probably true to say the Islamic world was more civilised than the West 1000 years ago. But that was then and we are now. Western developments (admittedly sometime building on knowledge from the east) have completely overtaken the Islamic world. Its that knowledge imo which fires their angst and resentment and ultimately violence that spills over at us.

I see absolutely nothing of merit in Islam. Its hey-day was centuries ago.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 12:42 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
I'm not feeling violently "eurocentric" or anything else. It is my contention that religion has curtailed personal freedoms and the development of society generally in the middle east, whereas in Europe with the Reformation and the Enlightenment we have been able to break free from the deadhand of religious dogma giving rise to a flowering of the arts and sciences which has produced the modern world.


And of course, all those benefits of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, all that flowering of the arts and sciences worked greatly in our favour. Just look at those post-Reformation and post-Enlightenment achievements in Europe during the last ten decades or so, and the obvious conclusion is that it must be the religion of Islam which is the reason for all the mess in the Middle East.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 01:37 pm
Either that, oe, or just living in the Christian Occident with our thousands of year of Judeo-Christion heritage made us to better.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 03:54 pm
old europe wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
I'm not feeling violently "eurocentric" or anything else. It is my contention that religion has curtailed personal freedoms and the development of society generally in the middle east, whereas in Europe with the Reformation and the Enlightenment we have been able to break free from the deadhand of religious dogma giving rise to a flowering of the arts and sciences which has produced the modern world.


And of course, all those benefits of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, all that flowering of the arts and sciences worked greatly in our favour. Just look at those post-Reformation and post-Enlightenment achievements in Europe during the last ten decades or so, and the obvious conclusion is that it must be the religion of Islam which is the reason for all the mess in the Middle East.
well of course we wanted the oil. But if they were so clever they would have exploited it first.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 06:59 pm
That I have no problem agreeing with. During the last 500 years, the Western civilization was certainly dominant. Trans-continental ships and trade, slavery and colonialism- setting up dependent enclave economies around the world helped us to be strongly on top. Honestly, nothing to be so proud of.
Still, we are on top, yes. But won't be forever. World is changing. Everything is fluid. So are civilizations. I personally think it is the West that is in decline currently. It's not a "war" either. It's just how things are. Who's more influential. I don't think it's the Arab world either that's gonna be in the prime next. You have China and India rising rapidly, and while that doesn't mean we'll just wither away into oblivion, we will have to share a lot more space in the sun with others. Step aside a little.

That goes for Europe too. Towards the outside as well as a self-reflecting exercise. Islam, whether "lesser" or "superior" is a European religion now. It just is. Practiced by milions of European citizens. What it means to be British, Dutch, French... is also shifting due to the changing face of Europe. They are there to stay. We can kick and scream, or we can seize it as an opportunity to learn about ourselves and focus constructively on how we are going to cohabitate in Europe in peace. Humiliation, alienation, and ostracism are probably not a ticket to any sort of a harmonious future. But I also have to say that Europe, at least big cities which are most diverse, IS realizing this. And there are many municipal efforts to grapple with it. It will take 2-3 generations for sure, but I am not too pessimistic. Of course, Europe will be a very different place. perhaps I'm a bad patriot, but I actually like the diversity that is growing in Europe. It's somehow more, I don't know...natural. Eh, but again, that's just me.
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