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Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

 
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
HokieBird wrote:
There's already elements of Sharia Law in the UK, no?



Britain has slghtly different laws for England, Wales and -especially- Scotland.
As far as I know, they didn't change it to Sharia.

Such would be known, I suppose.


Thanks, Walter. I didn't mean they've 'changed' to Sharia, but I'm sure I read that 'elements' of Sharia are being employed.

Meanwhile, Gordon Brown said this yesterday (video on CNN):

Quote:
There's a message that's got to come out from Britain and the British people and that is that 1) we will not yield, we will not be intimidated and we will not allow anyone to undermine our British way of life.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:18 am
HokieBird wrote:
I didn't mean they've 'changed' to Sharia, but I'm sure I read that 'elements' of Sharia are being employed.


I truely doubt that such is possible within the common-law principles in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. As well as with the different Scottish law.

Besides that - again - that would be know because the UK is democracy with a two chamber parliament where laws are "made".
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:30 am
Sharia law is spreading as authority wanes

By Joshua Rozenberg, Legal Editor
Last Updated: 1:59am GMT 30/11/2006

Islamic sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in parts of Britain, a report claims.

Sharia, derived from several sources including the Koran, is applied to varying degrees in predominantly Muslim countries but it has no binding status in Britain.

However, the BBC Radio 4 programme Law in Action produced evidence yesterday that it was being used by some Muslims as an alternative to English criminal law. Aydarus Yusuf, 29, a youth worker from Somalia, recalled a stabbing case that was decided by an unofficial Somali "court" sitting in Woolwich, south-east London.

Mr Yusuf said a group of Somali youths were arrested on suspicion of stabbing another Somali teenager. The victim's family told the police it would be settled out of court and the suspects were released on bail.

A hearing was convened and elders ordered the assailants to compensate their victim. "All their uncles and their fathers were there," said Mr Yusuf. "So they all put something towards that and apologised for the wrongdoing."

Although Scotland Yard had no information about that case yesterday, a spokesman said it was common for the police not to proceed with assault cases if the victims decided not to press charges.

However, the spokesman said cases of domestic violence, including rape, might go to trial regardless of the victim's wishes.

Mr Yusuf told the programme he felt more bound by the traditional law of his birth than by the laws of his adopted country. "Us Somalis, wherever we are in the world, we have our own law," he said. "It's not sharia, it's not religious ?- it's just a cultural thing."

Sharia's great strength was the effectiveness of its penalties, he said. Those who appeared before religious courts would avoid re-offending so as not to bring shame on their families.

Some lawyers welcomed the advance of what has become known as "legal pluralism".

Dr Prakash Shah, a senior lecturer in law at Queen Mary University of London, said such tribunals "could be more effective than the formal legal system".

In his book Islam in Britain, Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity, says there is an "alternative parallel unofficial legal system" that operates in the Muslim community on a voluntary basis.

"Sharia courts now operate in most larger cities, with different sectarian and ethnic groups operating their own courts that cater to their specific needs according to their traditions," he says. These are based on sharia councils, set up in Britain to help Muslims solve family and personal problems.

Sharia councils may grant divorces under religious law to a woman whose husband refuses to complete a civil divorce by declaring his marriage over. There is evidence that these councils are evolving into courts of arbitration.

Faizul Aqtab Siddiqi, a barrister and principal of Hijaz College Islamic University, near Nuneaton, Warwicks, said this type of court had advantages for Muslims. "It operates on a low budget, it operates on very small timescales and the process and the laws of evidence are far more lenient and it's less awesome an environment than the English courts," he said.

Mr Siddiqi predicted that there would be a formal network of Muslim courts within a decade.

"I was speaking to a police officer who said we no longer have the bobby on the beat who will give somebody a slap on the wrist.

"So I think there is a case to be made under which the elders sit together and reprimand people, trying to get them to change."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:36 am
Either my English has become worse or ...




When I was trying to co-ordinate a community of Germans from former Russian republics some years ago, we got the same problem: a lot of domestic violence cases (as well as unreported crimes) were dealt with within the community itself, by traditional "family laws" or whatever.

That didn't mean at all that the German law had changed.

Nor does your quote mean that the English, Welsh, NorthernIreland or Scottish law introduced Sharia.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:38 am
Islamic Sharia Council UK - Home
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:39 am
Walter I expect the religious preferences of all government ministers to be a private affair, and to have no influence over government policy. If it turns out there is a secret cabal of Jehovahs Witnesses Scientologists or Islamists trying usurp legitimate government...then yes I would be opposed to it. But I dont think thats happening. The two junior ministers who are Muslim support the Brown government because they are ministers, not because they are muslim.

Dag

Quote:
The Muslim News columnist Shelina Zahra Janmohamed has highlighted. It is worth repeating her point. A Gallup poll of Muslims in London found that Muslims' loyalty to Britain is greater than the general public; a national poll conducted by Populus found that: "only 33 per cent of the general population said they had Muslims as close personal friends" while "almost 90 per cent of Muslims said they had close non-Muslim friends"


Its that sort of sloppy thinking that gives inter-cultural relations a bad name. There are a lot more non muslims than muslims in Britain, so its hardly surprising that muslims have a higher proportion of non muslim friends than the other way round.

As for determining that "Muslims' loyalty to Britain is greater than the general public"...I would like to know what question Gallup asked Londoners.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:46 am


Well, do you want links for the various Evangelical, Catholic or other religious courts in the UK as well ....?

Well such is completely legal, there's "[N]o doubt, the backstreets of Britain are full of Islamic courts ruling on everything from banking and alcopops to forced marriage and divorce" - as this Guardian report shows.


Which still doesn't prove your claim that Sharia law was introduced in the UK.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:09 am
From the Sharia Law UK site

Quote:
What is the Shari'a ruling on intravenous fertilization?


Laughing Laughing

Clearly a wealth of expertise here.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:11 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:


Well, do you want links for the various Evangelical, Catholic or other religious courts in the UK as well ....?

Well such is completely legal, there's "[N]o doubt, the backstreets of Britain are full of Islamic courts ruling on everything from banking and alcopops to forced marriage and divorce" - as this Guardian report shows.


Which still doesn't prove your claim that Sharia law was introduced in the UK.


Not 'officially' (which isn't what I said anyway), but it's probably just a matter of time.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:14 am
HokieBird wrote:
Not 'officially' (which isn't what I said anyway), but it's probably just a matter of time.


Well, that might be - but only after the UK became a republic.


Btw: the Sharia Academy of the USA is in Tampa, Florida.

When does Sharia become part of the US-law, you think?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:21 am
Walter is right in that such courts are not legally recognised. They have no more force of law than a private club taking measures to enforce its own rules. But I dont like these "courts". They are devisive and re inforce separateness...one law for them one law for us etc...even in fact in law no such division pertains.

I'm in no doubt the Islamist militants are wildly in favour of such courts of arbitration. But they will never become part of UK law.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:23 am
Well, the religious courts here in Germany by the Evangelical and Catholic Churches are legal - for their religious rulings. (And you can study church law at state ubiversities as well.)
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:27 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Walter is right in that such courts are not legally recognised. They have no more force of law than a private club taking measures to enforce its own rules. But I dont like these "courts". They are devisive and re inforce separateness...one law for them one law for us etc...even in fact in law no such division pertains.

Do you feel the same way about the arbitration agencies mitigating conflicts between businesses? Many firms prefer them and their rules to government courts and government laws -- or else they wouldn't exist.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:28 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
HokieBird wrote:
Not 'officially' (which isn't what I said anyway), but it's probably just a matter of time.


Well, that might be - but only after the UK became a republic.


Btw: the Sharia Academy of the USA is in Tampa, Florida.

When does Sharia become part of the US-law, you think?


As far as I can tell, that's a school of some sort. Are you implying that institution is involved in administering Sharia law?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:37 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
steve, i think we practice just the same "us" and "them" mentality.


europe and U.S. are different, yes. but again, i wouldn't confuse the loud minority for all the muslims of britain. most of them are just honest working people who suffer from the reputation reaped by the violent few the most.
I understand how it is difficult for "moderate" muslims...(though to digress yet again I wonder how you define that expression...what is for instance a "moderate" Christian? Someone who only believes in 2 out of the 3 trinity? Laughing )

the large majority of Muslims who are as you say honest working people who want nothing but to live their lives suffer whatever they do

if they do nothing they are accused of not exposing militancy

if they do expose the Islamist jihadists among them, they risk real danger from those they denounce

and if they walk down the street with muslim dress, some idiot from the BNP who knows nothing about them other than they are non white tells them to get out of the country for being Asian/Pakistani origin.

What is making their lives so hard? My answer is Islam, not me.


What is muslim dress? Is a Scotsman in a kilt dressed as a Christian?

As far as I know, the burqa or hijab is not prescribed by the Koran.

Dress is cultural, not religious. Unless we're talking about a priest or cleric, imo.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:39 am
Thomas wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Walter is right in that such courts are not legally recognised. They have no more force of law than a private club taking measures to enforce its own rules. But I dont like these "courts". They are devisive and re inforce separateness...one law for them one law for us etc...even in fact in law no such division pertains.

Do you feel the same way about the arbitration agencies mitigating conflicts between businesses? Many firms prefer them and their rules to government courts and government laws -- or else they wouldn't exist.
You have a point there Thomas. But there has to be a level playing field. You cant have some people excluded from this quick and cheap form of justice because they are the wrong religion, or fearful that they will not get a fair hearing because of their religion. We can all guess which way a trade dispute between a muslim business and non muslim supplier, settled in a sharia court would go.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:44 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
From the Sharia Law UK site

Quote:
What is the Shari'a ruling on intravenous fertilization?


Laughing Laughing

Clearly a wealth of expertise here.


Laughing Laughing

Seems to work for them. And we've always been told that the Christians had the monopoly on virgin birth. Shocked
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 10:04 am
McTag wrote:
Dress is cultural, not religious. Unless we're talking about a priest or cleric, imo.
I agree. But when a school asks a girl not to wear certain inappropriate clothing, the Muslims protest it being an infringement of her right to religious expression, not cultural expression.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 10:11 am
Ah, that's why you got the school uniforms for the others: culture. :wink:
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 10:12 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
We can all guess which way a trade dispute between a muslim business and non muslim supplier, settled in a sharia court would go.

Of course -- that's why the non-muslim supplier won't agree to settle in a sharia court. She will insist on a government court, as is her right. Admittedly I haven't researched the matter, but I expect that Sharia courts would only decide cases where both the plaintiff and the defendant are Muslims.

I just read the article on the last page, and saw something that does worry me. It appears that in the UK, the government lets minorities settle even criminal cases out of court. Although I can see a the merits of this in tort and contract cases, I find it objectionable in criminal cases, seeing that crimes are offenses against the state.
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