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Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 01:37 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

Note the man was a convert. It was Islam that turned him into a potential mass murderer.


How do you know? If he was a potential mass murder before - to murder under the cover of religion perhaps just was the 'right' thing to do for him.
(Many left-/right wink "skinheads"/"autonoms" have no idea about politics - but about rioting and plundering ...)
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 01:54 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
how do I know?

well this quote from the BBC report suggests he was an unlikely mass murderer before he converted

BBC wrote:
On the mantelpiece are the cards her son has sent from prison. In them, Reilly sends his mother "love and cuddles".

His scribbled, child-like handwriting is a clue to the fact that he has a mental age of 10.

Ms Reilly says that ever since he was a little boy, her son has always had obsessions.

When he converted to Islam two years ago, she assumed it was just another obsessive phase. She says he became increasingly intolerant of the rest of the family, but that there was no sign of any extremism.

She believes he was groomed for the job of would-be suicide-bomber.

"He's just a vulnerable person who has been radicalised. He was an easy target - easy prey for them."

The police agreed.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 02:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Islam turned him into a potential mass murderer, or postenial mass murderers convert to Islam. Big difference in there, somewhere. I guess.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 02:26 pm
@roger,
This was a vulnerable young man preyed upon (prayed upon!) by evil men who knew they could turn him into a guided weapon by the application of religious dogma. I'm sorry to have to repeat that the religion in question was not Christianity or Buddhism or Sikhism, but as it always seems to be...Islam. Just what is wrong with that religion?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 03:06 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Well, Steve, like yesterday you missed out one paragraph from the report.
BBC wrote:
The BBC has learned the security services were aware of Reilly in the months before the attack.

But a source insisted he was "only of peripheral interest". The authorities were aware of him because they believed he had been associating with a number of men in the Plymouth area who were known to hold radical views.

In the days after the blast, Devon and Cornwall Police questioned three men in Plymouth but no-one else has ever been charged in connection with the attack.

Now the police will have to explain whether they got it wrong - and Reilly was, in fact, working alone - or whether they have failed to catch the real mastermind behind the plot.

Members of Plymouth's Muslim community have always condemned Reilly's actions in the strongest terms.

One man told the BBC the convert was regarded as "something of an oddball" but they insist he never gave them any reason to think he was a potential terrorist.

Neighbours in the Stonehouse area of Plymouth say Reilly became secretive and withdrawn in the weeks before the attack.

Source for above as well as for Steve's quote.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 02:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm going to say this then shut up about Islam etc at least for a while. The whole topic is making me depressed. Its depressing to think hundreds of millions of people adhere to a set of ideas which are patently absurd. Its frightening to realise that a small fraction, but a large number in absolute terms, are prepared to kill and maim for their mythical beliefs. And its upsetting to be accused of racism and bigotry (although to be fair no one on this forum has done so) for criticising an abstract set of ideas just because they constitute a "religion".
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 02:32 am
@Steve 41oo,
Why do you think people accuse you, Steve? Are they all wrong?
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 04:42 am
@dagmaraka,
Christians and Muslims condemn violence
by Bill Bowder
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=64935

ISLAMIC and Christian leaders and scholars condemned religious viol­ence in a communiqué issued on Wednesday at Lambeth Palace, at the end of a three-day conference to mark the first anniversary of the Muslim letter “A Common Word”.

In a two-page text, 17 religious leaders and scholars from Europe and the Middle East say they are “deeply troubled” by the threats to the Christian community in Mosul, northern Iraq.

“We find no justification in Islam or Christianity for those promoting the insecurity or perpetuating the violence evident in parts of Iraq.”

The conference, entitled “A Com­mon Word and Future Muslim-Christian Engagement”, built on the letter sent by Muslim scholars to Western and Eastern church leaders last year. It proposed that the two faiths draw together on the basis of all that they had in common.

In the communiqué, they also announce that in the coming year they will translate “significant texts” from each tradition to be used by the other; promote educational material that provided “a fair reflection of our faiths”; and link academic institu­tions together to work on shared values.

During a press conference on Wednesday, the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Dr Ali Gomaa, rejected press reports that he had praised suicide- bombers in Palestine. The reports were wrong and had “muddied the picture. . . We are against any per­secution of any minorities,” he said.

If the two faiths worked together they could do more to help the poor. “We are not doing a good enough job,” he said through his interpreter. He hoped the “good character” of the two religions would prevent the crisis from proliferating.

Dr Williams said that there were many examples of small-scale ac­tiv­ities by both faiths, based on “ a very clear religious ethic”.....
FULL TEXT
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 05:23 am
@Foxfyre,
Steve 41oo wrote:

do you respect the islamic view of the role of women, about homosexuality, genital mutilation and creationism?

Just to pick up on one thing, you're not seriously calling genital mutilation an "islamic view", are you?

The (despicable) practice of genital mutilation is prevalent in a certain region of the world (centred around N-E Africa), where it is practiced by Muslims and non-Muslims. Meanwhile, in most of the rest of the Islamic world, it is not practiced at all or rarely.

That alone should be enough to unlink genital mutilation and Islam -- but you go further and just assume that Dag's friends in Britain must approve of genital mutilation because they're Muslim? That doesnt make any sense.

Foxfyre wrote:

If I am hearing him right, Steve's position is that if Islam put as much public emphasis on denouncing terrorism and condemning its proponents to serious judgment as it does in promising heavenly rewards to those who do violence in obedience to Allah, perhaps Islamic terrorism would fall largely out of favor with most Muslims everywhere.

How do you know it isnt already? Considering your comparison with Christians, when you say "if Islam put as much public emphasis", you mean if Muslim clergymen did so. Well, there's no way to do a quantitative global research on this or something, but I'd bet you something that there's currently more imams telling their congregations that terrorism is bad, dangerous and incompatible with Islamic teachings than there are imams " promising heavenly rewards to those who do violence in obedience to Allah".

Of course an imam telling his congregators to disapprove of terrorism isnt going to spur the same media headlines and blog posts as an imam promising 42 virgins to anyone who blows himself up, so there's a skewed perception at work. But if you're really interested plenty of examples of the former are easy to find as well.

Foxfyre wrote:
Christian terrorism has become an infrequent and relatively small scale thing that is soundly and publiclly condemned by the vast majority of Christians everywhere.

Extremist Islamic terrorism is condemned by the vast majority of Muslims too. And though there are far too many terrorist attacks, and every one is one too many, the number of terrorists and terrorist sympathisers is of course also a "relatively small scale" proportion of all Muslims.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 02:59 am
The former MI5 chief says that the invasion of Iraq influenced young men in Britain who turned to terrorism:
Quote:
She challenges claims, notably made by Tony Blair, that the war in Iraq was not related to the radicalisation of Muslim youth in Britain.

Asked what impact the war had on the terrorist threat, she replies: "Well, I think all one can do is look at what those people who've been arrested or have left suicide videos say about their motivation. And most of them, as far as I'm aware, say that the war in Iraq played a significant part in persuading them that this is the right course of action to take."

She adds: "So I think you can't write the war in Iraq out of history. If what we're looking at is groups of disaffected young men born in this country who turn to terrorism, then I think to ignore the effect of the war in Iraq is misleading."


McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 03:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,

It's a no-brainer, isn't it? And the "elephant in the room".

Bin Laden is motivated by the western presence in Saudi, their holy land. And muslim youth is angry about the invasion of Iraq, as well as the treatment of the Palestinian people.
Spokespeople and vox pop have said this on TV countless times.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 03:33 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

do you respect the islamic view of the role of women, about homosexuality, genital mutilation and creationism?

Just to pick up on one thing, you're not seriously calling genital mutilation an "islamic view", are you?...
Yes. And I did not mention the sex of the child.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 04:44 am
@Steve 41oo,
when it comes to male circumcision, it's even more widespread than female genital mutilation... so i'm not sure what you're talking about, steve.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 04:52 am
@McTag,
This is worth repeating. Well said, Stella


A former head of MI5 today describes the response to the September 11 2001 attacks on the US as a "huge overreaction" and says the invasion of Iraq influenced young men in Britain who turned to terrorism.
In an interview with the Guardian, Stella Rimington calls al-Qaida's attack on the US "another terrorist incident" but not qualitatively different from any others.
"That's not how it struck me. I suppose I'd lived with terrorist events for a good part of my working life and this was as far as I was concerned another one," she says.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 06:58 am
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

nimh wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

do you respect the islamic view of the role of women, about homosexuality, genital mutilation and creationism?

Just to pick up on one thing, you're not seriously calling genital mutilation an "islamic view", are you?...
Yes. And I did not mention the sex of the child.

Well that makes it even more outlandish. Female genital mutilation is not a religious, but a cultural thing, practiced in a certain area of the world, by Muslims but also non-Muslims, and not or barely practiced by Muslims elsewhere. But male genital mutilation? Are you referring to circumcision? How in heavens name is that tied in with an Islamic view? You know most American men are circumcised right? And all Jewish men?
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 07:14 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

nimh wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

do you respect the islamic view of the role of women, about homosexuality, genital mutilation and creationism?

Just to pick up on one thing, you're not seriously calling genital mutilation an "islamic view", are you?...
Yes. And I did not mention the sex of the child.

Well that makes it even more outlandish. Female genital mutilation is not a religious, but a cultural thing, practiced in a certain area of the world, by Muslims but also non-Muslims, and not or barely practiced by Muslims elsewhere. But male genital mutilation? Are you referring to circumcision? How in heavens name is that tied in with an Islamic view? You know most American men are circumcised right? And all Jewish men?
What is outlandish about saying I disapprove of circumcision of children except for medical reasons. Of course circumcision is not restricted to Muslims, but you cant deny Islam and Islamic culture has no view on it. I'm also against the barbaric practice of ritual animal slaughter. You sound like a religious fanatic.

McT...Stella is right. I dont disagree invading Iraq was a provocation. But the bombers dont immolate themselves shouting Saddam and Iraq, they are shout Allah and Paradise.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 07:23 am
@Steve 41oo,
anything.... seems like you're looking for ANYTHING, steve.

it's not nimh who is sounding like a fanatic here. sorry, i like you otherwise, but this is...well, wow, like i said.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 07:30 am
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:
What is outlandish about saying I disapprove of circumcision of children except for medical reasons.


As said above: it's a cultural thing. Just because Britain and the Scandinavic countries are those with the lowest circumcision rate .... that doesn't change "God's commandment" (in Judaism).

What other religions besides Islam "have no view" on it?


Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 07:41 am
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:

anything.... seems like you're looking for ANYTHING, steve.

it's not nimh who is sounding like a fanatic here. sorry, i like you otherwise, but this is...well, wow, like i said.
I repeat, what is outlandish or in the slightest bit fanatical in saying I disapprove of

circumcision (male or female)
ritual animal slaughter
murdering homosexuals
subjugating women
killing apostates
creationism
anti-semitism
"honour" killings
polygamy


and a whole bunch of other stuff stemming from Islam or Islamic culture
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 07:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

What other religions besides Islam "have no view" on it?
There was a double negative in my post...sorry. I meant to say to nimh that you cant deny Islam has a view on circumcision (i.e approves the practice).

 

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