Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread IV

Cycloptichorn wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

His point is that cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia isn't exactly what we call a responsive answer to the topic.

At least, Mcg, he's not just straight making **** up and pretending he knows what he's talking about, as you are wont to do.

Cycloptichorn

I went to wiki for the list of Axis nations because I didnt remember all of them.
I needed no such help for the allied nations list.

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with looking stuff up; it's just that your comment was a non-sequitur. It wasn't material to the point: that Germany's allied forces attacked us, with Germany's support and approval. That's why stating that the Germans never attacked us is ridiculous; you know better, but choose to ignore when people point out the error of your ways.

Cycloptichorn

Ok,then answer this...
With the exception of Japan on 12/07/1941, what Axis nations attacked us to draw us into the war?
You said that "Germany's allied forces attacked us, with Germany's support and approval",so what nations were they?
And exactly when did they attack us first,BEFORE Japan did,or within 1 year of the Japanese attack?

mysteryman wrote:

Hint: Germany NEVER attacked us.

You've said that before.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2474894#2474894

You've been shown that you were wrong.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2474923#2474923

You've acknowledged it.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2476136#2476136


Apparently, you have to reminded every now and then, or else you will just start again making wrong claims....

mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

His point is that cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia isn't exactly what we call a responsive answer to the topic.

At least, Mcg, he's not just straight making **** up and pretending he knows what he's talking about, as you are wont to do.

Cycloptichorn

I went to wiki for the list of Axis nations because I didnt remember all of them.
I needed no such help for the allied nations list.

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with looking stuff up; it's just that your comment was a non-sequitur. It wasn't material to the point: that Germany's allied forces attacked us, with Germany's support and approval. That's why stating that the Germans never attacked us is ridiculous; you know better, but choose to ignore when people point out the error of your ways.

Cycloptichorn

Ok,then answer this...
With the exception of Japan on 12/07/1941, what Axis nations attacked us to draw us into the war?
You said that "Germany's allied forces attacked us, with Germany's support and approval",so what nations were they?
And exactly when did they attack us first,BEFORE Japan did,or within 1 year of the Japanese attack?

What, you don't count Germany's largest and most powerful ally?

Why not?

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

His point is that cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia isn't exactly what we call a responsive answer to the topic.

At least, Mcg, he's not just straight making **** up and pretending he knows what he's talking about, as you are wont to do.

Cycloptichorn

I went to wiki for the list of Axis nations because I didnt remember all of them.
I needed no such help for the allied nations list.

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with looking stuff up; it's just that your comment was a non-sequitur. It wasn't material to the point: that Germany's allied forces attacked us, with Germany's support and approval. That's why stating that the Germans never attacked us is ridiculous; you know better, but choose to ignore when people point out the error of your ways.

Cycloptichorn

Ok,then answer this...
With the exception of Japan on 12/07/1941, what Axis nations attacked us to draw us into the war?
You said that "Germany's allied forces attacked us, with Germany's support and approval",so what nations were they?
And exactly when did they attack us first,BEFORE Japan did,or within 1 year of the Japanese attack?

What, you don't count Germany's largest and most powerful ally?

Why not?

Cycloptichorn

No,because from what I have been able to find out,Japan did NOT have Germany's support or approval when they attacked PH.
The German govt did NOT want the US involved,because Germany wanted us to remain nuetral.
Germany did not want our industrial capability to join the allied forces.

Japan attacked us without Germany's approval,support or anything else.
Japan did not consult with Germany before they attacked us,Germany found out after the attack had happened.

Perhaps you should read a little history before you comment about what Germany thought.

Perhaps you should read a little history before you comment about what Germany thought.

Germany NEVER attacked us.

Hitler's Plan to Attack America
By Gerhard Weinberg
Gerhard L. Weinberg is emeritus professor of history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II (Cambridge University Press, 1994).

Editor's Note (1999): In his new book, A Republic, Not an Empire, Patrick Buchanan claims that as of mid-1940 Hitler "was driven by a traditional German policy of Drang nach Osten, the drive to the East." He did not want war with the West, insists Buchanan. (Pp. 268-69.) Why then did Hitler, following Pearl Harbor, declare war on the United States? Buchanan insists this was the irrational act of a madman. In fact, insists Gerhard Weinberg, it was consistent with an objective Hitler had long nourished.

It had been an assumption of Hitler's since the 1920s that Germany would at some point fight the United States. As early as the summer of 1928 he asserted in his second book (not published until I did it for him in 1961) that strengthening and preparing Germany for war with the United States was one of the tasks of the National Socialist movement. Both because his aims for Germany's future entailed an unlimited expansionism of global proportions and because he thought of the United States as a country which with its population and size might at some time constitute a challenge to German domination of the globe, a war with the United States had long been part of the future he envisioned for Germany either during his own rule of it or thereafter.

During the years of his chancellorship before 1939, German policies designed to implement the project of a war with the United States had been conditioned by two factors: belief in the truth in the stab-in-the-back legend on the one hand and the practical problems of engaging American military power on the other. The belief in the concept that Germany had lost the First World War because of the collapse at home -- the stab in the back of the German army -- rather than defeat at the front automatically carried with it a converse of enormous significance which has generally been ignored. It made the military role of the United States in that conflict into a legend. Believing that the German army had not been beaten in the fighting, Hitler and many others in the country disbelieved that it had been American participation which had enabled the Western Powers to hold on in 1918 and then move toward victory over Germany. They perceived that to be a foolish fable, not a reasonable explication of the events of that year. A solid German home front, which National Socialism would ensure, could preclude defeat next time; the problem of fighting the United States was not that the inherently weak and divided Americans could create, field, and support effective fighting forces, but rather that they were so far away and that the intervening ocean could be blocked by a large American fleet. Here were the practical problems of fighting America: distance and the size of the American navy.

To overcome these practical obstacles Hitler built up the German navy and began work on a long-range bomber -- the notorious Amerika Bomber -- which would be capable of flying to New York and back without refueling. Although the bomber proved difficult to construct, Hitler embarked on a crash building program of superbattleships promptly after the defeat of France. In addition, he began accumulating air and sea bases on the Atlantic coast to facilitate attacks on the United States. In April 1941 Hitler secretly pledged that he would join Japan in a war on the United States. This was critical. Only if Japan declared war would Germany follow.

As long as Germany had to face the United States essentially by herself, she needed time to build her own blue-water navy; it therefore made sense to postpone hostilities with the Americans until Germany had been able to remedy this deficiency. If, on the other hand, Japan would come into the war on Germany's side, then that problem was automatically solved.

Hitler was caught out of town at the time of Pearl Harbor and had to get back to Berlin and summon the Reichstag to acclaim war. His great worry, and that of his foreign minister, was that the Americans might get their declaration of war in ahead of his own. As Joachim von Ribbentrop explained it, "A great power does not allow itself to be declared war upon; it declares war on others." He did not need to lose much sleep; the Roosevelt administration was quite willing to let the Germans take the lead. Just to make sure, however, that hostilities started immediately, Hitler had already issued orders to his navy, straining at the leash since October 1939, to begin sinking American ships forthwith, even before the formalities of declaring war. Now that Germany had a big navy on its side (Japan's), there was no need to wait even an hour.

_____

This article is excerpted from Gerhard Weinberg's Germany, Hitler, and World War II (Cambridge University Press: 1995). It is reprinted with permission of the author and publisher and was reposted at TomPaine.com in 1999.

I mean, really, is it asking to much that people should remember some teeny tiny historic factoids? German forces attacked and killed Americans, both civilians and military forces, several times before Germany finally declared war on the United States

So it's OK for Germany to attack and kill Americans and their ships with submarines but not land and air forces.

Submarines don't count in your world.

But no German land or air forces attacked any US forces or civilians before war was declared.

Germany NEVER attacked us.

The Battle for Control of the Atlantic

In his book "The Second World War," Winston Churchill stated: "The only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-Boat peril."

The Battle of the Atlantic was not what one usually thinks of as a "battle," since it did not take place in one location over a limited period, such as the Battle of the Bulge. It was a Battle for CONTROL over shipping in the Atlantic and lasted from September 1939 until May 1945. Germany's submarines (U-Boats) tried to sink merchant ships faster than the Allies could build them. Starting in 1940, through the middle of 1942, U-Boats were very successful - they sank more ships than were built.

xingu wrote:

So it's OK for Germany to attack and kill Americans and their ships with submarines but not land and air forces.

Submarines don't count in your world.

In this case,no they dont.

xingu wrote:

So it's OK for Germany to attack and kill Americans and their ships with submarines but not land and air forces.

Submarines don't count in your world.

In this case,no they dont.
We were using our ships and our merchant fleet to send war material to England and the Soviet Union.
That violated our statement of neutrality.
That made our ships fair game for attack by German submarines.

mysteryman wrote:

xingu wrote:

So it's OK for Germany to attack and kill Americans and their ships with submarines but not land and air forces.

Submarines don't count in your world.

In this case,no they dont.

What an odd statement.

So if Iranian submarines were to attack and sink an American carrier tomorrow, would you say "Whew, I'm really glad that at least they didn't, like, attack us, you know?"

<shakes>

mysteryman wrote:

xingu wrote:

So it's OK for Germany to attack and kill Americans and their ships with submarines but not land and air forces.

Submarines don't count in your world.

In this case,no they dont.
We were using our ships and our merchant fleet to send war material to England and the Soviet Union.
That violated our statement of neutrality.
That made our ships fair game for attack by German submarines.

You said; "Germany NEVER attacked us."

Wrong, they did attack us. They attacked our merchant and military ships. That is an attack on America.