Is This a Racist Flag?

The flag as symbol was always the symbol of a racist institution, whether one focuses on the Confederate States army and navy, or the larger institution of the Confederate States government. All that the difference of 50 years makes it that people once did not care to canvass the topic (white people, that is), but now they are willing to acknowledge what has always been true--that this flag symbolizes a racist institution. That is not historical revisionism, that has always been true. It's a paltry conservative whine to speak of political rectitude or revisionism.

In plain and simple terms, the Confederate States were organized to perpetuate the racist institution of slavery, which they considered to have been threatened by the election of Lincoln. Therefore, the Confederate States in arms, as embodied in their army and navy, constitute racist institutions, of which that flag was the outward and visible sign.

Fifty years ago, people had no problem with separate lunch counters, and all manner of separate accommodations for blacks. That it was not recognized or acknowledged as institutional racism until almost 50 years ago does not alter the undeniable fact that it constituted institutional racism.

Should there be a gun and no gun section at Denny's?

Spare me the idiocy . . . that's about the best you can do at this point, no?

I quite honestly have no dog in this fight. I offered an opinion, along with the comment that the civil war wasn't really about slavery, which it wasn't. It was all about power.

So, about that flag....

Huh? That applies how?

Yep. The power to earn extra money via a racist institution (slavery). The power to assert greater control over government based on a racist institution (slavery). The power to consider yourself a God over other men based on a racist institution (slavery). The power to take the heinous institution (slavery) from a death count in the 10's of millions into the 100's of millions! Ooh, baby, can't you taste the power? Why settle for a representative democracy when you can create your very own plutocracy simply by standing on the necks of the Negro? First, we'll need a kickass flag, to separate us from those who would take away this lovely, God given power.

The Negro's don't know the difference, why, they're not even human. And even if they were; why would anyone want to live here:
in a civilized community; when they could live here;
in a jail cell when they're not getting worked to death.

At least they didn't have to try and get by on entitlements.

For a while I took to flipping the bird to any jerk I saw sporting this flag. I figured they were giving me a sign of their sentiments, so I should reciprocate. My woman talked me out of the practice.

Seems to be a lot of confederate flag flying around here, in rural Loosiana.
...lotta crimes against black elected officials, too.
Lotta illiterate whites, too.

I certainly don't disagree that blacks were a beneficiary of the Union victory and the accompanying abolishment of slavery, I just don't think that it was the real cause of the war.

But back to that flag....

Is this a racist's flag?

As i said, gun-boy, spare me the idiocy. It is incredible to me that you can consistently repeat that racist apologetics to the effect that the American Civil War was not about slavery. What's really pathetic, is that you puke up crap like that, and you're the very first one around here to whine that you are unjustly accused of racism. Grow up, CJ.

I s'pose if ya wanna get nit-picky about it, argument can be made that the American Civil War was fought over the issue of States' Rights, the Confederacy having one view, the Union an opposing view. On the other hand, a State's right to determine its own stance re the institution of slavery, and the status of slavery with regard to Territories and incipient States queing for admission to the United States were the operative issues in the dispute.

And another thing possibly worth nit-picking is the notion there ever was any such thing as a "Confederate Flag"; resolutions and regulations notwithstanding, the Confederacy in actual practice really had no one, standard, universally accepted, mass-produced, uniformly displayed national banner. Confederate military formations from battalion on up through Department (roughly equivalent to something between the contemporary "Army Group" and the contemporary "Front" or "Theater"), Confederate States, and even individual towns and cities within the Confederate States all deployed individualized variations on a not particularly rigidly defined theme.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, what most today think of as the "Confederate Flag" is but one interpretation of one variant of the myriad banners flown by the Confederacy. In current context, that particular depiction of "The Confederate Flag" most accurately is described as a relatively modern development, essentially tracing back only to the Dixiecrat era of the 1940s-'50s.

Contemporary Southern sympathies and contemporary general rabblerousing both aside, it is preposterous to assert other than that there attaches to that particular bit of symbolism, apart from any other consideration (and there are other considerations) what amount to some of the very most vile and reprehensible violations of human right and dignity humankind has managed to inflict upon itself. While no one can gainsay the devotion and valor of those who fought and died under the myriad banners of The Confederacy, there can be neither moral justification nor intellectually honest legitimization of the root cause for which they fought and died, and no one can deny the current symbol as presented represents glorification of the worst of humankind's failings.

Whether the symbol itself is racist or not is moot in face of the fact it has been co-opted and enthusiastically embraced and promoted by racists.

Well said, big bird.

(I seldom give all 5, but the "out loud" part may have startled the neighbors)

I agree. But that was history ... and knowledge about it.

Throwing pearls to the pigs is a German saying ...

We say "casting pearls before swine"...but it comes to the same thing in the end.


But then, it's their year....

I would suggest that meaning associated with symbolism changes. The swastika was originally a Hindu symbol of good luck, but someone proudly waving it today would have a hard time explaining that.

I expect nothing less from snoodly other than to be an ass.

That's a very good point. The so-called "Southern Cross" has often been alleged to have been based upon the St. Andrew's Cross, and is explained as being a symbol familiar to the descendants of Scots-Irish Protestant immigrants who settled in large numbers in the Carolinas. I personally consider that contention suspect, but it still serves the issue of pointing out that there isn't the most remote likelihood of people looking at the Confederate flag and saying: "Oh look, St. Andrew's Cross, it must be something to do with the Scots."

This specific symbol, however, differs from the swastika in that the blue cross on a red field with the array of stars was, from the outset, a symbol of a racist institution, with a racist agenda. That has not changed in 146 years, whether or not it has always be either apparent or acknowledged.

It is the oddest thing about Americans, we have this terrific inability to face our history headon. I don't know how history is taught elsewhere in the world, but in the USA, this nation's events and personalities are paraded out one by one as one great big glory after glory.

In September of the school year, every year it seems, we learn that the awful British and their taxes are thrown off in 1776 and we swing our fists at them again in 1812.

By January, we've bought a huge chunk of territory (that's American for you) from the French and set out onto the Industrial Revolution where we reap and sew and make Chicago.

In early May, the teacher mentions there was a Civil War. The nation is saved. Nobody is at fault or had bad thoughts, the South had a lovely culture, the North had railroads and textile mills.

We got going on that Industrial Revolution thing again and started making steel in Pittsburgh.

Then it is June and school closes, so do the minds of the students.

Of course, what this kind of teaching does is allow people to try and fill in the blanks themselves. So throughout the American South there are monuments to the heros of the Confederacy (there's an oxymoron for you) and middle-aged white men will look you right in the eye and blithely tell you how deeply rich are the heritage values of the South.

In the museums of Mississippi, Virginia and Alabama that I've visited, the place settings from the various plantations are set out on original tables, the ladies' dresses and gowns are displayed and, over the speaker system, fiddles, guitars and banjos are lightly played.

I am always careful when I leave these places, when I am walking to the parking lot to get in my car. I stay as much as I can on the path so that I do not touch the blood soaked ground.

Joe(They save the silver to show, but not the chains)Nation

amen, bruddah

Im so proud. Our only Pa native son President, James Buchanan, was once again chosen as the very worst of the top 10 worst presidents of the US. He proves that we couldnt have a decent Civil War without some help from the Union.