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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 03:41 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I do know that opinions aren't evidence of anything.

Cycloptichorn

Some person's opinions are evidence. And some person's opinions are not evidence.

If you like, I'll concede that your opinion is not "evidence of anything."


That's only your opinion though, and doesn't actually provide any evidence about the evidence provided by my opinion Smile

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 03:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:

...
There is a plan. The plan is being followed. We'll find out by the end of September what progress if any is being made.


This is a lie. The 'plan' that is being followed isn't an actual plan, but a hope combined with misdirection.

In September we'll get nothing more then 'if we leave now, the plan won't have time to work!' I am willing to bet on this if you like.

Cycloptichorn

You know better than that. We've been discussing the plan for months. The rational debate is not over whether a plan exists and is being followed. The rational debate is over whether or not the plan will work.


WHAT IS THE PLAN?

Is it to simply 'kill all terrorists in Iraq?' That's not a plan, that's a goal.

Is it to keep the violence down until the political situation comes together? That's not a plan, it's a hope.

There is precious little meat and bones to the 'plan.' Just ideas.

Cycloptichorn

You know better than that.

The existing plan is how to accomplish specific goals. You yourself have previously argued about the merits of the plan and the probability of the plan being successful, not its existence.

Do you frequently sample moveon.org to determine the planned argument of the day? Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 03:51 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I do know that opinions aren't evidence of anything.

Cycloptichorn

Some person's opinions are evidence. And some person's opinions are not evidence.

If you like, I'll concede that your opinion is not "evidence of anything."


That's only your opinion though, and doesn't actually provide any evidence about the evidence provided by my opinion Smile

Cycloptichorn

That too is only your opinion.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 03:59 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I do know that opinions aren't evidence of anything.

Cycloptichorn

Some person's opinions are evidence. And some person's opinions are not evidence.

If you like, I'll concede that your opinion is not "evidence of anything."


That's only your opinion though, and doesn't actually provide any evidence about the evidence provided by my opinion Smile

Cycloptichorn

That too is only your opinion.


As it was my original proposition that opinions do not count as actual evidence of something, your last post has confirmed that you agree with me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:41 pm
http://www.uclick.com/feature/07/07/06/tmate070706.gif
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:43 pm
The clock shows he's gonna make four more huge screwups before his time is up!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:47 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I do know that opinions aren't evidence of anything.

Cycloptichorn

Some person's opinions are evidence. And some person's opinions are not evidence.

If you like, I'll concede that your opinion is not "evidence of anything."


That's only your opinion though, and doesn't actually provide any evidence about the evidence provided by my opinion Smile

Cycloptichorn

That too is only your opinion.


As it was my original proposition that opinions do not count as actual evidence of something, your last post has confirmed that you agree with me.

Cycloptichorn

Negative! The fact is, I am agreeing only to the proposition that your opinion as expressed in this forum is not evidence.

This is a fact:
Some person's opinions sometimes are actual evidence of something; and, some person's opinions sometimes are not actual evidence of something.

In a court room trial what witnesses testify under oath is treated by the court as evidence, but not necessarily conclusive evidence. Senate and House Hearings wherein witnesses testify under oath are two more examples.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:49 pm
'Crack in the Dike': White House in 'Panic Mode' Over GOP Revolt on Iraq http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3359764&page=1
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:53 pm
From the ABC News link.



Bush administration officials are currently discussing options about how to get out of "this conundrum with the Republicans," while giving Gen. David Petraeus, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, time to implement the troop surge strategy in Iraq, according to a senior White House official.

There's a "strategy" now? Since when? It still looks like the same "stay the course" Bush plan.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:58 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
'Crack in the Dike': White House in 'Panic Mode' Over GOP Revolt on Iraq http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3359764&page=1

"A senior White House official told ABC News ..." says ABC News. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 05:02 pm
ican, it's just a viscious rumor. Bushie dont panic. Bushie dont need them dirty rat Republican Senators who are jumping ship. Bushie dont need nobody. Cool
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 06:34 pm
on june 18 general Petraeus was quoted having said that u.s. forces may stay in iraq for a decade .

Quote:
Iraq deployment could last a decade: US. 18/06/2007. ABC News Online

[This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1953696.htm]


Last Update: Monday, June 18, 2007. 0:24am (AEST)

Iraq deployment could last a decade:
The US commander in Iraq says American troops could be needed in the country for a decade to battle insurgents.

General David Petraeus has told Fox News there is broad recognition that Iraq's daunting challenges will not be resolved "in a year or even two years".

"In fact, typically, I think historically, counter-insurgency operations have gone at least nine or 10 years," he said.

General Petraeus was responding to a question about whether US forces could face a Korea-style deployment in Iraq for decades.

He said any long-term deployment would depend on whether the Iraqi Government wanted to extend the US military presence.



source for complete article :
ANOTHER DECADE IN IRAQ ?

on today's CNN news(wolf blitzer) , the general was quoted as having said the U.S. forces may have to stay in iraq "for several decades" .
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 06:37 pm
This was a far-gone conclusion before even the surge. So why is Petraeus now making that public? He knew that going in, and now wants to be "commander in Iraq." Case closed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 06:40 pm
This was also a forgone conclusion.

Official: Iraq gov't missed all targets


By ANNE FLAHERTY and ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writers
14 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - A progress report on Iraq will conclude that the U.S.-backed government in Baghdad has not met any of its targets for political, economic and other reform, speeding up the Bush administration's reckoning on what to do next, a U.S. official said Monday.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 06:41 pm
General Petraeus is going to say we must stay in Iraq, because if we don't the violence will get worse. That's also a foregone conclusion.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 06:48 pm
i wonder if the general feels like the roman generals felt some centuries ago when their armies occupied large parts of he then known world ?
they indeed did occupy large portions of the world ... but in the end not much was left of the roman empire .

of course many of those roman generals have had their names imprinted upon the history of europe and even the world ... could the general perhaps be hoping that will happen to his name ???
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 07:05 pm
fleshing out wolf blitzer's comments , the BBC reports :

Quote:
US Iraq chief warns of long war

Gen Petraeus took over as head of US forces in Iraq in January

Petraeus interview

The head of US forces in Iraq, Lt Gen David Petraeus, has told the BBC that fighting the insurgency is a "long term endeavour" which could take decades.
Speaking to the BBC's John Simpson in Baquba, Gen Petraeus said there was evidence that the recent troops surge was producing gains on the ground.

But he warned that US forces were engaged in a "tough fight" which will get "harder before it gets easier".

His comments come as US calls for a rapid troop withdrawal gather strength.

Gen Petraeus was keen to emphasise that the ongoing unrest in Iraq is not something he expects to be resolved overnight.

"Northern Ireland, I think, taught you that very well. My counterparts in your [British] forces really understand this kind of operation... It took a long time, decades," he said.


The question is how can we gradually reduce our forces so we reduce the strain on the army, on the nation and so forth
Gen Petraeus



"I don't know whether this will be decades, but the average counter insurgency is somewhere around a nine or a 10 year endeavour."

He went on to say that more important than the length of time it would take to stabilise Iraq was the number of US troops which would be required to remain in the country.

"I think the question is at what level... and really, the question is how can we gradually reduce our forces so we reduce the strain on the army, on the nation and so forth," he said.

He said everyone wanted the US forces to be able to leave, both Americans and Iraqis alike, but he said it was vital to ensure that "the gains that have been hard fought in places like Baquba and Ramadi could be sustained, maintained and even built on by Iraqi forces and Iraqi political leaders".

In the last few weeks US forces have captured two big insurgent centres, Ramadi and Baquba, which was the main stronghold of al-Qaeda.

'Surge taking hold'

Gen Petraeus attributes this success to the recent surge in combat troop numbers, under which some 30,000 extra US troops have been deployed in Iraq, saying that although much work still remains to be done "the surge is achieving progress on the ground".


"This comprehensive offensive that we have launched into al-Qaeda sanctuaries and locations where there are al-Qaeda affiliates is in fact showing effect," he said.
"In Baghdad for example, June was the lowest month for sectarian deaths in a year."

By contrast, April, May and June were the deadliest three months for US troops since the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

About 3,600 US soldiers have been killed in Iraq since the conflict began.

Gen Petraeus insisted it was not yet possible to see the full effect the surge was having as it took until mid-June to get all of the additional troops and equipment on the ground.

"I think again we need to see where we are in September when we'll have had a couple of months of all of our forces. We are still in the first month of the surge of operations that is following now the surge of forces," he said.

Time running out

Gen Petraeus is due to return to Washington in September to report on the campaign's progress.


However, correspondents say the clock in Washington is running fast.
In recent days four Republican senators have withdrawn support for President George W Bush's Iraq strategy, adding their voice to a growing number calling for a new plan.

And this week will see a contentious debate in the US Senate over a major defence spending bill.

On Sunday the Pentagon announced that US Defence Secretary Robert Gates was cancelling a planned Latin American tour in order to focus on the upcoming clash.

According to BBC world affairs editor John Simpson, the debate is moving so fast in Washington that Gen Petraeus's efforts, which might have saved the day for the Bush administration if they had been introduced three, or even two, years ago, may well have come too late.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/6285156.stm


source :
GENERAL WARNS OF LONG WAR
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 07:12 pm
The war's cost is now $2.77 billion every week in Iraq. Who in their right mind can continue to support this war without end?


Report: Wars cost US $12 billion a month


By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 3 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The boost in troop levels in Iraq has increased the cost of war there and in Afghanistan to $12 billion a month, and the total for Iraq alone is nearing a half-trillion dollars, congressional analysts say.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 07:43 pm
c.i. :
in my job i never had to deal with more than million dollar figures and i find it difficult to really to understand what a trillion dollars is .
my suspicion is that many people when hearing of billions or trillions are just tuning out and think "why i should worry about that" ?
unfortunately , there may be a rude wake-up call some day ... SOON ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 07:59 pm
hbg, When I worked for Florsheim Shoe Company about five lifetimes ago, I had to project monthly sales and profit for my boss. Even back then, sales figures were in the millions every month, with November and December being especially huge sales/profit months.

When I worked in management for other companies, our annual budgets ran several million dollars, but my budget forecasts used to be pretty accurate - sometimes less than 2% off. That gave me much credibility and support from the board of directors. It was fun, but I enjoy retirement too.

I can't relate to billions or trillion dollars either. Just add a few zeroes.
0 Replies
 
 

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