9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 06:59 am
No mystery about Mysteryman then, he's solid bone above that red neck.

Smile
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 07:03 am
McTag wrote:
No mystery about Mysteryman then, he's solid bone above that red neck.

Smile


If these people had managed to damage some aircraft,and if it had cost the lives of American or British civilians on the ground in England,would you have argued that it was OK?

By violating the perimeter of that base,especially during a time of war,the AF security detail had every right to shoot them.

I know you would have preferred it if their actions had gotten Americans killed,but they should have been shot instead.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 07:12 am
I wouldn't wish, and they didn't intend, for anyone to be killed.

If they could have damaged an engine or two, then the plane would have been delayed, that's all. The engines have sensors to detect that kind of thing.

I note that one of their weapons was photos of Iraqi children to stick onto the bomb doors.

Dangerous terrorists and a real threat, obviously. :wink:
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 07:16 am
McTag wrote:
I wouldn't wish, and they didn't intend, for anyone to be killed.

If they could have damaged an engine or two, then the plane would have been delayed, that's all. The engines have sensors to detect that kind of thing.

I note that one of their weapons was photos of Iraqi children to stick onto the bomb doors.

Dangerous terrorists and a real threat, obviously. :wink:


There are many ways to damage an aircraft that detectable by sensors.

But,they still should have been shot for violating a restricted area during wartime.

You can try and pretend that they meant no harm,and maybe they didnt,THIS TIME,but what about next time?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 07:21 am
mysteryman wrote:
By violating the perimeter of that base,especially during a time of war,the AF security detail had every right to shoot them.


No, look at:

a) Aggravated Trespass (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act
1994), which applies to a person who trespasses with intent to intimidate, obstruct or disrupt a lawful activity,

b) "Status of Forces Agreements (SOFAs),

c) US-operated bases in the UK have Royal Air Force status [= small RAF contingent or single officer is charged with maintaining local relations and advising the US station commanders on British protocol and laws],

The British Government says that all US bases on British territory are required to operate within UK law on a par with British military establishments.

The UK didn't declare any war the last couple of years.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 07:54 am
mm wrote :

Quote:
USAF security force should have shot them.


SHOOT 'EM ! that's always the best way to resolve any problem ; you can always ask questions later .
no wonder there is so much violence in the united states .
i'm just glad not all americans subscribe to mysteryman's way of handling conflicts .
hbg
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 08:39 am
Frank Rich Examines Overlooked War Disaster: Fleeing Iraquis
Frank Rich Examines the Most Overlooked War Disaster: The Fleeing Iraqis
By E&P Staff
Published: May 26, 2007

In his Sunday column for The New York Times, Frank Rich explores the oft-neglected aspect of the conflict in Iraqi that actually represents one of its greatest tragedies: the flight of Iraqis from that country and the humanitarian crisis that remains.

Here is an excerpt. The full column can be found behind the pay wall at www.nytimes.com.

Iraqis are clamoring to get out of Iraq. Two million have fled so far and nearly two million more have been displaced within the country. (That's a total of some 15 percent of the population.) Save the Children reported this month that Iraq's child-survival rate is falling faster than any other nation's. One Iraqi in eight is killed by illness or violence by the age of 5. Yet for all the words President Bush has lavished on Darfur and AIDS in Africa, there has been a deadly silence from him about what's happening in the country he gave "God's gift of freedom."

It's easy to see why. To admit that Iraqis are voting with their feet is to concede that American policy is in ruins. A "secure" Iraq is a mirage, and, worse, those who can afford to leave are the very professionals who might have helped build one. Thus the president says nothing about Iraq's humanitarian crisis, the worst in the Middle East since 1948, much as he tried to hide the American death toll in Iraq by keeping the troops' coffins off-camera and staying away from military funerals.

But his silence about Iraq's mass exodus is not merely another instance of deceptive White House P.R.; it's part of a policy with a huge human cost. The easiest way to keep the Iraqi plight out of sight, after all, is to prevent Iraqis from coming to America. And so we do, except for stray Shiites needed to remind us of purple fingers at State of the Union time or to frame the president in Rose Garden photo ops.

Since the 2003 invasion, America has given only 466 Iraqis asylum. Sweden, which was not in the coalition of the willing, plans to admit 25,000 Iraqis this year alone. Our State Department, goaded by January hearings conducted by Ted Kennedy, says it will raise the number for this year to 7,000 (a figure that, small as it is, may be more administration propaganda). A bill passed by Congress this month will add another piddling 500, all interpreters.

In reality, more than 5,000 interpreters worked for the Americans. So did tens of thousands of drivers and security guards who also, in Senator Kennedy's phrase, have "an assassin's bull's-eye on their backs" because they served the occupying government and its contractors over the past four-plus years. How we feel about these Iraqis was made naked by one of the administration's most fervent hawks, the former United Nations ambassador John Bolton, speaking to The Times Magazine this month. He claimed that the Iraqi refugee problem had "absolutely nothing to do" with Saddam's overthrow: "Our obligation was to give them new institutions and provide security. We have fulfilled that obligation. I don't think we have an obligation to compensate for the hardships of war."

The assistant secretary in charge of refugees at the State Department now, Ellen Sauerbrey, is a twice-defeated Republican candidate for governor of Maryland with no experience in humanitarian crises but a hefty résumé in anti-abortion politics. She is to Iraqis seeking rescue what Brownie was to Katrina victims stranded in the Superdome....

While it seems but a dim memory now, once upon a time some Iraqis did greet the Americans as liberators. Today, in fact, it is just such Iraqis ?- not the local Iraqi insurgents the president conflates with Osama bin Laden's Qaeda in Pakistan ?- who do want to follow us home. That we are slamming the door in their faces tells you all you need to know about the real morality beneath all the professed good intentions of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Though the war's godfathers saw themselves as ridding the world of another Hitler, their legacy includes a humanitarian catastrophe that will need its own Raoul Wallenbergs and Oskar Schindlers if lives are to be saved.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 09:20 am
hamburger wrote:
mm wrote :

Quote:
USAF security force should have shot them.


SHOOT 'EM ! that's always the best way to resolve any problem ; you can always ask questions later .
no wonder there is so much violence in the united states .
i'm just glad not all americans subscribe to mysteryman's way of handling conflicts .
hbg


Simple minds require simple solutions.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 09:52 am
BBBs most recent article about fleeing Iraqis is rarely mentioned, but the Bush administration sees fit to ignore this problem as if it doesn't exist. Pitiful.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 01:19 pm
c.i. wrote :

Quote:
BBBs most recent article about fleeing Iraqis is rarely mentioned, but the Bush administration sees fit to ignore this problem as if it doesn't exist. Pitiful.


A POWDERKEG ?
--------------------

about two million iraqis have fled mainly to jordan and syria , but these countries have trouble dealing with the large influx of refugees .
there isn't much doubt in my mind that at least some of these refugees will become easy recruits for terrorists - especially the younger refugees unless there economic conditions improve quickly .
both jordan and syria have stated that refugees from iraq are no longer welcome and that they expect them to return to iraq before too long .
a wonderful recruitment ground terrorists imo .
hbg

Quote:
Doors closing on fleeing Iraqis
By Jon Leyne
BBC News, Amman


They are not sitting in camps, or straggling through the desert. In fact any Western visitor to Jordan might not even notice them.
But this country now plays host to up to one million Iraqis who have fled the fighting in their country. Up to a million are in nearby Syria.

And there are big numbers in Iraq's other neighbours.

After nearly four years of war, they know they are not about to return home any time soon. The hidden crisis is beginning to demand the world's attention.

At Jordan's desert border crossing with Iraq, you see the Iraqi families arriving. Their belongings are piled high in GMCs, big American 10-seater vehicles that race across the badlands of western Iraq.


You've got to ask how long this generosity can continue before they start closing the borders
Andrew Harper

The Iraqis here will tell you of their relief after running the gauntlet of American soldiers, Iraqi insurgents, and the many bandits, that make this one of the most notorious journeys in the world. This wind-blown border post, many kilometres from the nearest town, is their safe haven, their refuge.

But Jordan is only letting in a fraction of the numbers it used to, perhaps only 10 or 15 car loads a day.


Divided families

One old man I met just inside the border, who was arriving for medical treatment, was furious after a young nephew travelling with him was turned back by the Jordanians.

Almost all Iraqis you speak to have tales of how much more difficult it is to get into Jordan, compared with just a few months ago.


"It's very difficult to get people outside of Iraq," explained Lutfi, an Iraqi doctor who has just managed to help his father join him in Jordan.

"I used to come easily, there was no trouble at all. But lots of things have changed. Most of the Iraqis are forbidden to come unless they have something to prove they are studying, or for business or investment."

The Jordanian government says there has been no formal change of policy; but a spokesman said there had been a tightening of regulations, particularly for security reasons.

Precious passports

It is a trend echoed around the region. Kasra Mofarah works in Jordan coordinating aid agencies operating in Iraq.

"Most of the borders of the neighbouring countries of Iraq are very difficult to pass. They have administrative problems, passport issues, and they are not welcome any more," he explained.

"Also the Western countries and the wealthier countries, they are becoming more and more difficult in terms of allocating any visa, or allowing any entrance. So it seems the doors are closing one by one around the world on the face of Iraqis."


It's even harder to move on from Jordan. Britain and the United States have just introduced new rules, invalidating most Iraqi passports.
Even Iraqis who have managed to get one of the prized new G-series passports will be even luckier if they can get a visa.

Ashraf worked for an American company in Baghdad. He decided to get out after being kidnapped twice. Now he is stuck in Jordan:

"I applied for a visa to go to the UK and also to the States. I got rejected many times by the British government and the American government.

"They are pretty much responsible to help people like me and other friends that I know that worked with the military or the Americans."

'Sent to die'

Lina and Nasir are two Iraqi doctors, who travelled to Britain to study in order to further their work on the mass graves where victims of Saddam's regime are buried.

The insurgents tracked them down and started sending terrifying threatening emails.

They were refused even an extension of their visas to stay in Britain, and were told not to bother even applying for political asylum.

"It's unbelievable", said Nasir. "If you just send me home you send me to die. It's a matter of life or death, it's nothing in between."



In fact the number of Iraqis being granted refugee status or political asylum in Britain has actually gone down since the invasion in 2003.

Only five Iraqis were granted refugee status by the British government in 2005.

It's the most graphic illustration of the world's neglect of this growing crisis.


Slipping into poverty

Jordan itself has been widely praised for its tolerance in allowing in so many Iraqis. But Andrew Harper of the UN refugee agency warned that its a situation that cannot go on for ever.

"You've got to ask how long this generosity can continue before saturation and before they start closing the borders," he warned. "And once they are closed, what then happens to those refugees who are trying to escape from Iraq?"

In Jordan itself, most Iraqis are not allowed to work. Apart from a few rich businessman, they are slowly sinking into poverty.

Schooling is difficult, medical care even more precarious.

Dr Lutfi is trying to support the family he has managed to get out of Iraq. But he can't earn money here.

After being turned down for visas by Britain, the USA and Sweden, he decided there was no option but to return to Iraq and find work there.

A desperate remedy for an increasingly desperate situation.






source :
IRAQIS NO LONGER WELCOME IN JORDAN
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 01:21 pm
From Juan Cole.

Quote:
Logic Lesson on Iraq and Terror for Bush from Palm Beach

The Palm Beach Post editorial on Bush's illogic does what newspapers are supposed to do. It questions the logicality of a politician's assertion. Last week Bush gave a news conference in which he was asked why Bin Laden hadn't been caught. He said, "because he is hiding." No one in the vaunted White House press corps replied to him, "Mr. President, that is a tautology."

So here is the logic lesson from Palm Beach:


'See if you can follow this argument:

The United States has to be in Iraq to fight the terrorists who are in Iraq because the United States is in Iraq. '
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 02:10 pm
CORRECTION

IBC's Count of Civilians Killed in Iraq since 1/1/2003
iraq body count as of 2/28/2007

MONTHLY UPDATE OF IRAQ'S VIOLENT NON-COMBATANT DEATHS

............................... Monthly ........... Accumulated Total since
............................... Totals .............. January 1st 2003 ...........
December 2005 ............ ------ ..................... 36,859
January 2006 ............... 1,267 .................... 38,126
February 2006 .............. 1,287 .................... 39,413
March 2006 .................. 1,538 .................... 40,951
April 2006 .................... 1,287.................... 42,238
May 2006 ..................... 1,417 .................... 43,655
June 2006 ..................... 2,089 .................... 45,744
July 2006 ...................... 2,336 .................... 48,080
August 2006 ................ 1,195 .................... 49,275
September 2006 .......... 1,407..................... 50,682
October 2006 .............. 2,546 ..................... 53,228
November 2006 .......... 3,894 ..................... 57,122
December 2006 .......... 3,219 ..................... 60,341
January 2007 .............. 2,557 ..................... 62,898
February 2007 ............. 2,514 ..................... 65,412
March 2007 .................. 2,720 .................... 68,132
April 2007 .................... 2,359 .................... 70,491
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 02:33 pm
Even with IBC's undercount it gets worse and worse.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 02:40 pm
The trend is getting worse for the Iraqis by 66 percent for the past 12 months. I wonder which country in this world would invite a liberator to save them from this carnage?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 03:02 pm
xingu wrote:
From Juan Cole.

Quote:
Logic Lesson on Iraq and Terror for Bush from Palm Beach

The Palm Beach Post editorial on Bush's illogic does what newspapers are supposed to do. It questions the logicality of a politician's assertion. Last week Bush gave a news conference in which he was asked why Bin Laden hadn't been caught. He said, "because he is hiding." No one in the vaunted White House press corps replied to him, "Mr. President, that is a tautology."

So here is the logic lesson from Palm Beach:


'See if you can follow this argument:

The United States has to be in Iraq to fight the terrorists who are in Iraq because the United States is in Iraq. '

Malarkey!

Juan Cole try real hard to overcome your biases and understand reality.

The United States invaded Afghanistan October 2001 for among other reasons to stop al-Qaeda's accumulation in Afghanistan after the United States was attacked by al-Qaeda in September 2001.

After the United States invaded Afghanistan October 2001, al-Qaeda began December 2001 accumulating in Iraq.

The United States invaded Iraq March 2003 for among other reasons to stop al-Qaeda's accumulation in Iraq.

The United States has not stopped the accumulation of al-Qaeda in either Afghanistan or Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 03:44 pm
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Poll: 5/18-23/07

"Which of these comes closest to your opinion? Congress should block all funding for the war in Iraq no matter what. Congress should allow funding, but only on the condition that the U.S. sets benchmarks for progress and the Iraqi government are meeting those goals. OR, Congress should allow all funding for the war without any benchmark conditions."
.
Block All | Fund With Benchmarks | Allow All | Unsure
............... % % % %
................ 13 69 15 3


"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?"
.
Approve | Disapprove | Unsure
..................................% % %
ALL adults ................. 23 72 05
Republicans ............... 54 40 06
Democrats ................. 04 93 03
Independents ............ 19 77 04
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 03:44 pm
Once for every 100 times ican posts his alternate reality account of events, I have to react to it. I can't help it. It's an allergic reaction.

ican711nm wrote:
After the United States invaded Afghanistan October 2001, al-Qaeda began December 2001 accumulating in Iraq.


No, it didn't. In December 2001, Jund al-Islam (led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi) and a splinter group led by Mullah Krekar formed Ansar al-Islam - in the north of Iraq, in the no-fly zone and outside the control of Saddam Hussein.

And while Krekar denied any links to al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden, many reports said that al-Zarqawi, too, was more a rival than an ally of bin Laden.

However, had the United States seen Ansar al-Islam as a problem, they could have easily taken out the alleged training camps without much of an effort.


ican711nm wrote:
The United States invaded Iraq March 2003 for among other reasons to stop al-Qaeda's accumulation in Iraq.


Note: ican claims that the United States invaded Baghdad in order to fight an islamist group that was neither tied to nor under the control of the former Ba'athist government. ican claims that the United States invaded Baghdad in order to fight a group of some 300 men in the North of Iraq that was under the control of the United States all the time.

Highly suspicious claims there.

However, al-Zarqawi officially pledged alliance to al Qaeda not before October 2004. According to ican's account of events, the United States invaded Iraq in March 2003 for something that would happen 18 months later.


ican711nm wrote:
The United States has not stopped the accumulation of al-Qaeda in either Afghanistan or Iraq.


Well, I agree with that statement. The United States have done a pretty bad job in Afghanistan. Part of the problem might be giving up the hunt for Osama bin Laden in order to invade Iraq.
The United States have done a catastrophic job in Iraq, were no terrorist network or group tied to al Qaeda had any foothold under the Ba'athist regime. Today, Iraq is a veritable breeding ground for terrorists.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 04:17 pm
a recent article(may 20 , 2007) in the los angeles times points out that al qaeda's operations are expanding in pakistan - largely because the pakistan army has withdrawn its troops from the frontier with afghanistan .
so will the united states have to send its troops into the pakistani-afghanistan frontier region to take on al qaeda ?
it's a pretty chilling article pointing out the difficulties trying to track down an eneemy not playing by the usual rules of the game .
it's a fairly lenghty article and i have shown only a small part of it .
hbg


from the los angeles times :
Quote:
Influx of Al Qaeda, money into Pakistan is seen
U.S. officials say the terrorist network's command base is increasingly being funded by cash coming out of Iraq.
By Greg Miller
Times Staff Writer

May 20, 2007

WASHINGTON ?- A major CIA effort launched last year to hunt down Osama bin Laden has produced no significant leads on his whereabouts, but has helped track an alarming increase in the movement of Al Qaeda operatives and money into Pakistan's tribal territories, according to senior U.S. intelligence officials familiar with the operation.

In one of the most troubling trends, U.S. officials said that Al Qaeda's command base in Pakistan is increasingly being funded by cash coming out of Iraq, where the terrorist network's operatives are raising substantial sums from donations to the anti-American insurgency as well as kidnappings of wealthy Iraqis and other criminal activity.

The influx of money has bolstered Al Qaeda's leadership ranks at a time when the core command is regrouping and reasserting influence over its far-flung network. The trend also signals a reversal in the traditional flow of Al Qaeda funds, with the network's leadership surviving to a large extent on money coming in from its most profitable franchise, rather than distributing funds from headquarters to distant cells.

Al Qaeda's efforts were aided, intelligence officials said, by Pakistan's withdrawal in September of tens of thousands of troops from the tribal areas along the Afghanistan border where Bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, are believed to be hiding.

Little more than a year ago, Al Qaeda's core command was thought to be in a financial crunch. But U.S. officials said cash shipped from Iraq has eased those troubles.

"Iraq is a big moneymaker for them," said a senior U.S. counter-terrorism official.

The evolving picture of Al Qaeda's finances is based in part on intelligence from an aggressive effort launched last year to intensify the pressure on Bin Laden and his senior deputies.

As part of a so-called surge in personnel, the CIA deployed as many as 50 clandestine operatives to Pakistan and Afghanistan ?- a dramatic increase over the number of CIA case officers permanently stationed in those countries. All of the new arrivals were given the primary objective of finding what counter-terrorism officials call "HVT1" and "HVT2." Those "high value target" designations refer to Bin Laden and Zawahiri.

The surge was part of a broader shake-up at the CIA designed to refocus on the hunt for Bin Laden, officials said. One former high-ranking agency official said the CIA had formed a task force that involved officials from all four directorates at the agency, including analysts, scientists and technical experts, as well as covert operators.

The officials were charged with reinvigorating a search that had atrophied when some U.S. intelligence assets and special forces teams were pulled out of Afghanistan in 2002 to prepare for the war with Iraq.



Arduous search

Nevertheless, U.S. intelligence and military officials said, the surge has yet to produce a single lead on Bin Laden's or Zawahiri's location that could be substantiated.

"We're not any closer," said a senior U.S. military official who monitors the intelligence on the hunt for Bin Laden.

The lack of progress underscores the difficulty of the search more than five years after the Sept. 11 attacks. Despite a $25-million U.S. reward, current and former intelligence officials said, the United States has not had a lead on Bin Laden since he fled American and Afghan forces in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan in early 2002.

"We've had no significant report of him being anywhere," said a former senior CIA official who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on condition of anonymity when discussing U.S. intelligence operations. U.S. spy agencies have not even had information that "you could validate historically," the official said, meaning a tip on a previous Bin Laden location that could subsequently be verified.

President Bush is given detailed presentations on the hunt's progress every two to four months, in addition to routine counter-terrorism briefings, intelligence officials said.

The presentations include "complex schematics, search patterns, what we're doing, where the Predator flies," said one participant, referring to flights by unmanned airplanes used in the search. The CIA has even used sand models to illustrate the topography of the mountainous terrain where Bin Laden is believed to be hiding.

Still, officials said, they have been unable to answer the basic question of whether they are getting closer to their target.

"Any prediction on when we're going to get him is just ridiculous," said the senior U.S. counter-terrorism official. "It could be a year from now or the Pakistanis could be in the process of getting him right now."

In a written response to questions from The Times, the CIA said it "does not as a rule discuss publicly the details of clandestine operations," but acknowledged it had stepped up operations against Bin Laden and defended their effectiveness.

"The surge has been modest in size, here and overseas, but has added new skills and fresh thinking to the fight against a resilient and adaptive foe," CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano said in the statement. "It has paid off, generating more information about Al Qaeda and helping take terrorists off the street."

The CIA spies are part of a broader espionage arsenal aimed at Bin Laden and Zawahiri that includes satellites, electronic eavesdropping stations and the unmanned airplanes.



link to complete three page article :
AL QAEDA AND THE PAKISTAN CONNECTION
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 04:18 pm
old europe wrote:
Once for every 100 times ican posts his alternate reality account of events, I have to react to it. I can't help it. It's an allergic reaction.

ican711nm wrote:
After the United States invaded Afghanistan October 2001, al-Qaeda began December 2001 accumulating in Iraq.


No, it didn't. In December 2001, Jund al-Islam (led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi) and a splinter group led by Mullah Krekar formed Ansar al-Islam - in the north of Iraq, in the no-fly zone and outside the control of Saddam Hussein.

And while Krekar denied any links to al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden, many reports said that al-Zarqawi, too, was more a rival than an ally of bin Laden.

However, had the United States seen Ansar al-Islam as a problem, they could have easily taken out the alleged training camps without much of an effort.


ican711nm wrote:
The United States invaded Iraq March 2003 for among other reasons to stop al-Qaeda's accumulation in Iraq.


Note: ican claims that the United States invaded Baghdad in order to fight an islamist group that was neither tied to nor under the control of the former Ba'athist government. ican claims that the United States invaded Baghdad in order to fight a group of some 300 men in the North of Iraq that was under the control of the United States all the time.

Highly suspicious claims there.

However, al-Zarqawi officially pledged alliance to al Qaeda not before October 2004. According to ican's account of events, the United States invaded Iraq in March 2003 for something that would happen 18 months later.


ican711nm wrote:
The United States has not stopped the accumulation of al-Qaeda in either Afghanistan or Iraq.


Well, I agree with that statement. The United States have done a pretty bad job in Afghanistan. Part of the problem might be giving up the hunt for Osama bin Laden in order to invade Iraq.
The United States have done a catastrophic job in Iraq, were no terrorist network or group tied to al Qaeda had any foothold under the Ba'athist regime. Today, Iraq is a veritable breeding ground for terrorists.


Believe what you like. The facts say otherwise.

The reasons given in the following quotes for invading Iraq and Afghanistan are the stated, primary valid and sufficient reasons, regardless of whether or any other reasons Bush et al gave are valid and sufficient.

Congress wrote:

Congress's Joint Resolution September 14, 2001
emphasis added
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
...
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


Congress wrote:

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

[11th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
...

General Tommy Franks wrote:

American Soldier, by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges an a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."

page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all. "

Senate Select Committee wrote:

Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
Conclusion 6. Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq, an area that Baghdad had not controlled since 1991.

Wikipedia wrote:

ANSAR AL-ISLAM
Ansar al-Islam (Supporters or Partisans of Islam) is a Kurdish Sunni Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war. At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border. It has used tactics such as suicide bombers in its conflicts with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and other Kurdish groups.

Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar. Krekar became the leader of the merged Ansar al-Islam, which opposed an agreement made between IMK and the dominant Kurdish group in the area, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK).

Ansar al-Islam fortified a number of villages along the Iranian border, with Iranian artillery support. [1]

Ansar al-Islam quickly initiated a number of attacks on the peshmerga (armed forces) of the PUK, on one occasion massacring 53 prisoners and beheading them. Several assassination attempts on leading PUK-politicians were also made with carbombs and snipers.

Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.[/b][/color]


emphasis added
9/11 Commission wrote:

9/11 Commission Report

2 THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM

2.1 A DECLARATION OF WAR
In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin and a fugitive Egyptian physician, Ayman al Zawahiri, arranged from their Afghan headquarters for an Arabic newspaper in London to publish what they termed a fatwa issued in the name of a "World Islamic Front." A fatwa is normally an interpretation of Islamic law by a respected Islamic authority, but neither Bin Ladin, Zawahiri, nor the three others who signed this statement were scholars of Islamic law. Claiming that America had declared war against God and his messenger, they called for the murder of any American, anywhere on earth, as the "individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."1

Three months later, when interviewed in Afghanistan by ABC-TV, Bin Ladin enlarged on these themes.2 He claimed it was more important for Muslims to kill Americans than to kill other infidels. "It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities," he said. Asked whether he approved of terrorism and of attacks on civilians, he replied: "We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets."
...
Plans to attack the United States were developed with unwavering single-mindedness throughout the 1990s. Bin Ladin saw himself as called "to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations,"5 and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam.
...
9/11 Commission Report
2.3 THE RISE OF BIN LADIN AND AL QAEDA (1988-1992)
...
Bin Ladin understood better than most of the volunteers the extent to which the continuation and eventual success of the jihad in Afghanistan depended on an increasingly complex, almost worldwide organization. This organization included a financial support network that came to be known as the "Golden Chain," put together mainly by financiers in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states. Donations flowed through charities or other nongovernmental organizations (NGOs). Bin Ladin and the "Afghan Arabs" drew largely on funds raised by this network, whose agents roamed world markets to buy arms and supplies for the mujahideen, or "holy warriors."21
...
Bin Ladin now had a vision of himself as head of an international jihad confederation. In Sudan, he established an "Islamic Army Shura" that was to serve as the coordinating body for the consortium of terrorist groups with which he was forging alliances. It was composed of his own al Qaeda Shura together with leaders or representatives of terrorist organizations that were still independent. In building this Islamic army, he enlisted groups from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Oman, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Somalia, and Eritrea. Al Qaeda also established cooperative but less formal relationships with other extremist groups from these same countries; from the African states of Chad, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, and Uganda; and from the Southeast Asian states of Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Bin Ladin maintained connections in the Bosnian conflict as well.37 The groundwork for a true global terrorist network was being laid.
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Bin Ladin seemed willing to include in the confederation terrorists from almost every corner of the Muslim world. His vision mirrored that of Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened a series of meetings under the label Popular Arab and Islamic Conference around the time of Bin Ladin's arrival in that country. Delegations of violent Islamist extremists came from all the groups represented in Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura. Representatives also came from organizations such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas, and Hezbollah.51
...
9/11 Commission Report
2.5 AL QAEDA'S RENEWAL IN AFGHANISTAN (1996-1998)
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The Taliban seemed to open the doors to all who wanted to come to Afghanistan to train in the camps. The alliance with the Taliban provided al Qaeda a sanctuary in which to train and indoctrinate fighters and terrorists, import weapons, forge ties with other jihad groups and leaders, and plot and staff terrorist schemes. While Bin Ladin maintained his own al Qaeda guesthouses and camps for vetting and training recruits, he also provided support to and benefited from the broad infrastructure of such facilities in Afghanistan made available to the global network of Islamist movements. U.S. intelligence estimates put the total number of fighters who underwent instruction in Bin Ladin-supported camps in Afghanistan from 1996 through 9/11 at 10,000 to 20,000.78
...
Now effectively merged with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad,82 al Qaeda promised to become the general headquarters for international terrorism, without the need for the Islamic Army Shura. Bin Ladin was prepared to pick up where he had left off in Sudan. He was ready to strike at "the head of the snake."
...
On February 23, 1998, Bin Ladin issued his public fatwa. The language had been in negotiation for some time, as part of the merger under way between Bin Ladin's organization and Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad. Less than a month after the publication of the fatwa, the teams that were to carry out the embassy attacks were being pulled together in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam. The timing and content of their instructions indicate that the decision to launch the attacks had been made by the time the fatwa was issued.88
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9/11 Commission Report
The attack on the U.S. embassy in Nairobi destroyed the embassy and killed 12 Americans and 201 others, almost all Kenyans. About 5,000 people were injured. The attack on the U.S. embassy in Dar es Salaam killed 11 more people, none of them Americans. Interviewed later about the deaths of the Africans, Bin Ladin answered that "when it becomes apparent that it would be impossible to repel these Americans without assaulting them, even if this involved the killing of Muslims, this is permissible under Islam." Asked if he had indeed masterminded these bombings, Bin Ladin said that the World Islamic Front for jihad against "Jews and Crusaders" had issued a "crystal clear" fatwa. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans to liberate the holy places "is considered a crime," he said, "let history be a witness that I am a criminal."93
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National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
The Commission closed on August 21, 2004. This site is archived.


al-Zawahiri wrote:
www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
Summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.
The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
The war will not end with an American departure.

The strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.
More than half the struggle is taking place "in the battlefield of the media."
Popular support must be maintained at least until jihadist rule has been established.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 04:34 pm
I knew you were going to copy/paste your pre-made list instead of discussing anything.

The majority of what you posted didn't even address the point I have made. But let me quickly go through your stuff:

- The AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES contained pretty much every conceivable reason that people could come up with in order to justify a military intervention. It authorized the use of the Armed Forces in a certain scenario, but never provided evidence for that scenario. This point is mute.

- Tommy Franks is working on his legacy. However, he makes a pretty good argument for the point I raised before: had the US really been willing to take out the training camps in the northern areas controlled by the US Air Force, it wouldn't have been much of an effort. Invading Baghdad certainly had next to nothing to do with the threat of Answar al-Islam.

- The Senate Select Committee stated that Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq, an area that Baghdad had not controlled since 1991. Which is exactly my point. Baghdad had no control over that area. The United States had. And this helps your argument how???
(Hey, just an idea: maybe you should drop the sources that contradict your claims if you're trying to make a coherent argument....)

- Well, Wikipedia...

- I seriously have no idea what the blue bits in the 9/11 Commission report have to do with my argument. Nothing. Probably.

- Yeah. Nothing to do with what I said either.
0 Replies
 
 

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