THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Yeah yeah save you're breath.

Quote:

Oh yes I am right! You want us to take that action which would constitute our losing!

You're wrong, because you don't understand what 'winning' and 'losing' in Iraq mean. I know that you have your own personal definitions of the two terms, but they - much like most things you post - have little relation to reality.

Cycloptichorn

What is your definition of winning?

These are all mine. Pick the one you prefer.

Quote:
http://209.161.33.50/dictionary
Main Entry: 1win
Pronunciation: \ˈwin\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): won \ˈwən\; win·ning
Etymology: Middle English winnen, from Old English winnan to struggle; akin to Old High German winnan to struggle and probably to Latin venus sexual desire, charm, Sanskrit vanas desire, vanoti he strives for
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 a: to get possession of by effort or fortune b: to obtain by work : earn <striving>
2 a: to gain in or as if in battle or contest <won> b: to be the victor in <won>
3 a: to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause — often used with over <won> b: to induce to accept oneself in marriage <was>
4 a: to obtain (as ore, coal, or clay) by mining b: to prepare (as a vein or bed) for regular mining c: to recover (as metal) from ore
5: to reach by expenditure of effort
intransitive verb
1: to gain the victory in a contest : succeed
2: to succeed in arriving at a place or a state

Haha, silly, not the definition of the word 'win' but the definition of what 'winning in Iraq' means.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Haha, silly, not the definition of the word 'win' but the definition of what 'winning in Iraq' means.

Cycloptichorn

OK!

What is your definition of "what 'winning in Iraq' means"?

0 Replies

hamburger wrote:

ican wrote :

Quote:
Of course, the majority of Iraqis want us out of their country. They want us out when they are able to protect themselves without our help.

there are indeed many iraqis that want the united states to stay , but during their stay they also want the united states to repair all the damage that has been done to their infrastructure !

(if you read "prince of the marshes" you can hear the frustration of both the iraquis and the early administrators to get the ball rolling .. and keep it rolling . when they had one school repaired , two more were blown up).
hbg

It is up to the Iraqis government to decide when and under what conditions they want us to leave. Staying to repair damage done to Iraq's infrastructure by the US, seems to me to be a reasonable request.

I haven't read "prince of the marshes", but because of your recommendation I will put it on my to-read list. Thanks.

0 Replies

Poll of Iraqis: Public Wants Timetable for US Withdrawal, but Thinks US Plans Permanent Bases in Iraq

Quote:

Note that they want us to leave even though they don't expect the security situation to improve.

0 Replies

It is up to the Iraqi government to decide when and under what conditions they want us to leave. Also, I think we should agree, if the Iraqi government were to ask us to stay until we repaired the damage done to Iraq's infrastructure by the US.

The Iraqi poll results are a mystery to me. If the poll results were actually valid, then the Iraqi government would have already asked us to leave. The approval of those polled of making US troops targets is off the wall, unless the Iraqis polled were afraid to openly express their disapproval of that.

0 Replies

Quote:

If the poll results were actually valid, then the Iraqi government would have already asked us to leave

You're wrong, because the 'accountability moment' for elected officials only occurs during further elections. The government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all. At least, that's the Republican line on how Democracy works.

I would also note that Iraq hasn't had local elections in 18 months - far behind schedule. They are behind schedule on national re-elections too.

Quote:

The approval of those polled of making US troops targets is off the wall, unless the Iraqis polled were afraid to openly express their disapproval of that.

are you serious? Why is it off the wall? You don't honestly expect that many Iraqis like the US any longer. There's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

i don't know if the iraqis want the u.s. to leave or not .
a rather lengthy article in saturday's "globe and mail" (toronto/canada)
suggests that the sunnis and kurds are afraid that they'll be squashed by a shiite-led government as soon as the u.s. leaves .

here is the previously posted link again :

...DO ALL IRAQIS WANT THE U.S. TO LEAVE ?...

from the article :

Quote:

i might add that the globe and mail is certainly not a newspaper that was in favour of war in iraq .
the reporter on the ground seems to be raising some difficult questions .
can iraq become a state where shia , sunnis , kurds and other groups can live in peace with each other - to me it certainly is a big question mark .
hbg

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
If the poll results were actually valid, then the Iraqi government would have already asked us to leave

You're wrong, because the 'accountability moment' for elected officials only occurs during further elections. The government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all. At least, that's the Republican line on how Democracy works.

I would also note that Iraq hasn't had local elections in 18 months - far behind schedule. They are behind schedule on national re-elections too.

Quote:
The approval of those polled of making US troops targets is off the wall, unless the Iraqis polled were afraid to openly express their disapproval of that.

are you serious? Why is it off the wall? You don't honestly expect that many Iraqis like the US any longer. There's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

OLD BUSINESS

Again, what is your "definition of what 'winning in Iraq' means?"

NEW BUSINESS

You claim the Iraq "government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all." Ok, let's assume that claim of yours is actually true. Why would the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave?

You claim "there's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation." Rightfully so! But if their resentment is so intense for them to want our troops killed, the very troops who are daily risking their lives to defend Iraqi lives, then why isn't their resentment also intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now... that is, get the hell out now?

Shocked

Oh now I've got it! The Iraqi people want us to stay so that our troops will die violently at a rate about 60 per month, while they die violently at the rate of about 3,000 per month. That'll show us! Huh? Rolling Eyes

Clearly these poll results are too absurd to be believed by rational people to be valid.

0 Replies

Ican

If you think the poll is false, prove it with something other than you think it is ridiculous therefore it is false.

There have been dozens of polls in the last few years which have said a majority of Iraqis approve of violence against the US military in Iraq. Thats just reality whether it makes sense to you or not is not relevant.

0 Replies

ican wrote :

Quote:

Oh now I've got it! The Iraqi people want us to stay so that our troops will die violently at a rate about 60 per month, while they die violently at the rate of about 3,000 per month. That'll show us! Huh?

since i was never in iraq , there is a lot of guessing on my part . i get the impression from reading various books and reports that many iraqis are just as intent on killing other iraqis - witness the truckbombs in markets etc - as they are intent on killing americans .

there are of course educated iraqis - many of which have left the country in the meantime - who want peace , but there are also many fanatics who relish the killing of those iraqis who simply want peace and order , as well of those belonging to a different tribe , religious group , family or village .
i think we all know how much damage even a small group of fanatics can create - give them RPG's , mortars , truckbombs and they seem almost powerful enough to stop an army .

this seems somewhat like the religious wars that swept through europe in the 16th and 17th centuries when whole villages and even cities were destroyed and its inhabitants pressed into army-service or killed .
(historians talk about : "...rivers running red with blood..." )

how this whole iraqi "affair" will be resolved eventually is anyones' guess .
hbg

0 Replies

revel wrote:

Ican

If you think the poll is false, prove it with something other than you think it is ridiculous therefore it is false.

I already gave you my reasons for thinking the Iraq polls ridiculous.

It is ridiculous to think that the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave.

It is ridiculous to think Iraqi resentment of the US military is so intense as to want our troops killed, the very troops who are daily risking their lives to defend Iraqi lives, but not intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now.

The burden of proof now rests with those people who think the Iraqi polls are valid and not ridiculous.

Prove me wrong!

There have been dozens of polls in the last few years which have said a majority of Iraqis approve of violence against the US military in Iraq. Thats just reality whether it makes sense to you or not is not relevant.

Whether or not those polls are valid is what is relevant. Whether or not they make sense is what is relevant. Do they make sense to you? I think your answer would also be relevant.

0 Replies

Quote:

It is ridiculous to think that the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave.

Why is it ridiculous? It's the exact same situation that we face here in America.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

ican's reply to revel :

Quote:

It is ridiculous to think Iraqi resentment of the US military is so intense as to want our troops killed, the very troops who are daily risking their lives to defend Iraqi lives, but not intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now.

of course we may think it ridiculous that they are "not intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now" .

there may not always be camera around for the iraqis to express their opinion .
i also read ("prince of marshes") that when one of the administrators - who thought that he was trusted by the iraqis - kept asking them for their opinions , they often would refuse to talk to him . they would come to the meeting but sit stony-faced through the whole meeting .
after the meeting one or two might approach him and ask for special favours "for their village , their cousin , brother-in-law " but hardly ever in front of the other attendees .
when the elders wanted to show their particular disapproval of him not only would they not talk to him , but also refuse the cup of tea or coffee that is always offered at any meeting as a sign of friendship or peace - at least as long as the meeting lasts .

i think westerners have a lot to learn if we want to understand the people and the customs of the middle-east and of iraq specifically .
hbg

0 Replies

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If the poll results were actually valid, then the Iraqi government would have already asked us to leave

You're wrong, because the 'accountability moment' for elected officials only occurs during further elections. The government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all. At least, that's the Republican line on how Democracy works.

I would also note that Iraq hasn't had local elections in 18 months - far behind schedule. They are behind schedule on national re-elections too.

Quote:
The approval of those polled of making US troops targets is off the wall, unless the Iraqis polled were afraid to openly express their disapproval of that.

are you serious? Why is it off the wall? You don't honestly expect that many Iraqis like the US any longer. There's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

OLD BUSINESS

Again, what is your "definition of what 'winning in Iraq' means?"

Sure, sorry for the delay.

First let us make clear: 'Winning' represents the scenario in which the US has the best possible outcome from this point. I believe that there could have been changes made in the past 3 years that could have lead to a different definition of 'winning' than I offer now, but hey - can't change the past, so we have to go with our current situation.

I define 'winning in Iraq' as the situation in which the US exits the country with the least possible damage to our soldiers, our international influence, and military as a whole. It is my opinion, based upon years of observation, that we will not achieve anything other than a Pyrrhic victory no matter what we do from this point on. The opportunity to win hearts and minds is gone. So, it's time to start thinking about what is best for the US.

I don't believe throwing more money at a problem - but, at the same time, far too little to overwhelmingly crush the problem - is going to do a lick of good. So I advocate leaving the country poste haste.

I define 'Losing in Iraq' as staying, and staying, and staying for further years, as the Iraqis continue to fail to get their **** together, and we spend ever-increasing amounts of money on the endeavor. Eventually the populace will turn against the US occupiers; we don't want to get to this point. Worst possible outcome.

Quote:

NEW BUSINESS

You claim the Iraq "government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all." Ok, let's assume that claim of yours is actually true. Why would the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave?

Are you kidding? Because we support and protect the government of Iraq with our military. Many members of their government are personally getting quite rich thanks to their cushy posts and gigantic amount of fraud and waste. Frankly the US army is the only thing keeping them in power. Of course they don't want us to leave! Ridiculous thing to even ask.

I only brought up the 'no compunction whatsoever' line, because that's the modern Republican line when issues of accountability come up. I was wondering why you thought it should be different for the Iraqi government than our own.

Quote:

You claim "there's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation." Rightfully so! But if their resentment is so intense for them to want our troops killed, the very troops who are daily risking their lives to defend Iraqi lives

Hard stop. They are also ending other Iraqis lives simultaneously. The citizens do not share your trust that the armed forces get it right, and why should they?

Quote:

then why isn't their resentment also intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now... that is, get the hell out now?

Because the people who do that end up dead. That's what fear and intimidation mean. You think that all those people who are found shot execution-style were just chilling in the living room, when they were killed for no reason?

You have zero idea of the terror these people go through in their everyday lives. To wonder why they aren't saying more against those who kill people who speak up... I just can't believe you'd say such a thing.

Quote:

Oh now I've got it! The Iraqi people want us to stay so that our troops will die violently at a rate about 60 per month, while they die violently at the rate of about 3,000 per month. That'll show us! Huh?

Clearly these poll results are too absurd to be believed by rational people to be valid.

Clearly you are too irrational to judge whether these poll results are absurd or not. You don't seem to have a clear grasp of what's going on there, exactly.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

It is ridiculous to think that the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave.

Why is it ridiculous? It's the exact same situation that we face here in America.

Cycloptichorn

No! It is not "the exact same situation that we face here in America."
(1) Al-Qaeda et al isn't killing thousands of us per month.
(2) Our military is not killing any of us at all.
(3) The disagreements of some of us with our government are intense enough for us to openly and loudly demand on camera that our government order our troops to leave Iraq now".

By the way, I think hamburger just posted what may be a rational explanation for the fact that the behavior of the Iraqi people when responding to pollsters is inconsistent with the way they are responding to their government.

0 Replies

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

It is ridiculous to think that the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave.

Why is it ridiculous? It's the exact same situation that we face here in America.

Cycloptichorn

No! It is not "the exact same situation that we face here in America."
(1) Al-Qaeda et al isn't killing thousands of us per month.
(2) Our military is not killing any of us at all.
(3) The disagreements of some of us with our government are intense enough for us to openly and loudly demand on camera that our government order our troops to leave Iraq now".

By the way, I think hamburger just posted what may be a rational explanation for the fact that the behavior of the Iraqi people when responding to pollsters is inconsistent with the way they are responding to their government.

It is the exact same, in that the majority of Americans wish to see us leave Iraq by a specific date, and the government refuses to call for it to happen.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I define 'winning in Iraq' as the situation in which the US exits the country with the least possible damage to our soldiers, our international influence, and military as a whole. It is my opinion, based upon years of observation, that we will not achieve anything other than a Pyrrhic victory no matter what we do from this point on. The opportunity to win hearts and minds is gone. So, it's time to start thinking about what is best for the US.
...
Cycloptichorn

Thank you for your "definition of 'winning' in Iraq."

I think it more accurate to call what you define as 'winning' in Iraq as maximizing long term loses in Iraq and the US by minimizing short term loses in Iraq.

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

ican711nm wrote:
NEW BUSINESS

You claim the Iraq "government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all." Ok, let's assume that claim of yours is actually true. Why would the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave?

Are you kidding? Because we support and protect the government of Iraq with our military. Many members of their government are personally getting quite rich thanks to their cushy posts and gigantic amount of fraud and waste. Frankly the US army is the only thing keeping them in power. Of course they don't want us to leave! Ridiculous thing to even ask.

I only brought up the 'no compunction whatsoever' line, because that's the modern Republican line when issues of accountability come up. I was wondering why you thought it should be different for the Iraqi government than our own.

Quote:
You claim "there's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation." Rightfully so! But if their resentment is so intense for them to want our troops killed, the very troops who are daily risking their lives to defend Iraqi lives

Hard stop. They are also ending other Iraqis lives simultaneously. The citizens do not share your trust that the armed forces get it right, and why should they?

Quote:
then why isn't their resentment also intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now... that is, get the hell out now?

Because the people who do that end up dead. That's what fear and intimidation mean. You think that all those people who are found shot execution-style were just chilling in the living room, when they were killed for no reason?

You have zero idea of the terror these people go through in their everyday lives. To wonder why they aren't saying more against those who kill people who speak up... I just can't believe you'd say such a thing.

Quote:
Oh now I've got it! The Iraqi people want us to stay so that our troops will die violently at a rate about 60 per month, while they die violently at the rate of about 3,000 per month. That'll show us! Huh?

Clearly these poll results are too absurd to be believed by rational people to be valid.

Clearly you are too irrational to judge whether these poll results are absurd or not. You don't seem to have a clear grasp of what's going on there, exactly.

Cycloptichorn

Probably you are right that I do not have "a clear grasp of what's going on there, exactly." I think the same is true for you.

Multiple Iraqis groups have spoken out and demanded that their government ask the US military to leave. None of them were murdered. The problem is they are a relatively small percentage of the total Iraqi adult population.

Don't forget that according to the Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year, 2006, the population of Iraq in 2006 was 28.513 million. Slightly less than half of them were too young to vote in the Iraqi January 2006 elections. That left about 14 million potential voters for that election. Despite all the death threats by al-Qaeda et al that Iraqis who voted would be murdered, about 12 million Iraqis, or about 85%, defied these threats and voted. The Iraqis definitely want a democracy that can adequately protect their liberty. No number of subsequent polls or your speculations can refute that.

0 Replies

IBC's Count of Civilians Killed in Iraq since 1/1/2003
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
MONTHLY UPDATE OF IRAQ'S VIOLENT NON-COMBATANT DEATHS

............................... Monthly ........... Accumulated Total since
............................... Totals .............. January 1st 2003 ........
January 2006 ............ 1,267 .................... 38,126
February 2006 ........... 1,287 .................... 39,413
March 2006 ................ 1,538 .................... 40,951
April 2006 .................. 1,287.................... 42,238
May 2006 .................. 1,417 .................... 43,655
June 2006 .................. 2,089.................... 45,744
July 2006 ................... 2,336.................... 48,080
August 2006 ............... 1,195 .................... 49,275
September 2006 ......... 1,407.................... 50,682
October 2006 ............. 2,546 .................... 53,228
November 2006 ......... 3,894 .................... 57,122
December 2006 ......... 3,219.................... 60,341
January 2007 ............ 2,557 .................... 62,898
February 2007 ........... 1,883 .................... 64,681

0 Replies

The pollsters have yet to ask a random sample of 1,000 adult American people: Do you FAVOR, OPPOSE, UNSURE America leaving Iraq before the Iraqi people are able to defend themselves without America's help?

Until the pollsters ask that question and its answered, neither of us knows what the American people think.

0 Replies

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know