ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote:If the poll results were actually valid, then the Iraqi government would have already asked us to leave
You're wrong, because the 'accountability moment' for elected officials only occurs during further elections. The government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all. At least, that's the Republican line on how Democracy works.
I would also note that Iraq hasn't had local elections in 18 months - far behind schedule. They are behind schedule on national re-elections too.
Quote:The approval of those polled of making US troops targets is off the wall, unless the Iraqis polled were afraid to openly express their disapproval of that.

are you serious? Why is it off the wall? You don't honestly expect that many Iraqis
like the US any longer. There's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation.
Cycloptichorn
OLD BUSINESS
Again, what is your "definition of what 'winning in Iraq' means?"
Sure, sorry for the delay.
First let us make clear: 'Winning' represents the scenario in which the US has the best possible outcome
from this point. I believe that there could have been changes made in the past 3 years that could have lead to a different definition of 'winning' than I offer now, but hey - can't change the past, so we have to go with our current situation.
I define 'winning in Iraq' as the situation in which the US exits the country with the least possible damage to our soldiers, our international influence, and military as a whole. It is my opinion, based upon years of observation, that we will not achieve anything other than a Pyrrhic victory
no matter what we do from this point on. The opportunity to win hearts and minds is gone. So, it's time to start thinking about what is best for the US.
I don't believe throwing more money at a problem - but, at the same time, far too little to overwhelmingly crush the problem - is going to do a lick of good. So I advocate leaving the country poste haste.
I define 'Losing in Iraq' as staying, and staying, and staying for further years, as the Iraqis continue to fail to get their **** together, and we spend ever-increasing amounts of money on the endeavor. Eventually the populace will turn against the US occupiers; we don't want to get to this point. Worst possible outcome.
Quote:
NEW BUSINESS
You claim the Iraq "government is under no compunction whatsoever to do anything their citizens wish at all." Ok, let's assume that claim of yours is actually true. Why would the members of the Iraq government want us to stay, while an alleged huge majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave?
Are you kidding? Because we support and protect the government of Iraq with our military. Many members of their government are personally getting quite rich thanks to their cushy posts and gigantic amount of fraud and waste. Frankly the US army is the only thing keeping them in power. Of course they don't want us to leave! Ridiculous thing to even ask.
I only brought up the 'no compunction whatsoever' line, because that's the modern Republican line when issues of accountability come up. I was wondering why you thought it should be different for the Iraqi government than our own.
Quote:You claim "there's a lot of resentment over there towards us for our ham-fisted handling of the situation." Rightfully so! But if their resentment is so intense for them to want our troops killed, the very troops who are daily risking their lives to defend Iraqi lives
Hard stop. They are also ending other Iraqis lives simultaneously. The citizens do not share your trust that the armed forces get it right, and why should they?
Quote: then why isn't their resentment also intense enough for them to openly and loudly demand on camera that their government order our troops to leave Iraq now... that is, get the hell out now?
Because the people who do that end up
dead. That's what fear and intimidation mean. You think that all those people who are found shot execution-style were just chilling in the living room, when they were killed for no reason?
You have
zero idea of the terror these people go through in their everyday lives. To wonder why they aren't saying more against those who kill people who speak up... I just can't believe you'd say such a thing.
Quote:
Oh now I've got it! The Iraqi people want us to stay so that our troops will die violently at a rate about 60 per month, while they die violently at the rate of about 3,000 per month. That'll show us! Huh?
Clearly these poll results are too absurd to be believed by rational people to be valid.
Clearly you are too irrational to judge whether these poll results are absurd or not. You don't seem to have a clear grasp of what's going on there, exactly.
Cycloptichorn