THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

evidence out there in web-land

You do realize that not everything on the web is true, dont you.
I can find evidence that the moon landings were fake, that doesnt make it true.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mm, of coarse, but those who cannot decipher between facts and fiction will continue to have problems with reality. Fiction cannot be supported in any way except to those people who believe in the tooth fairy. Their opinions are based on fantasy.

0 Replies

CICE NONSENSE
Previous • Post: # 3,599,096 • Next
Advocate
REPLY QUOTE REPORT Fri 13 Mar, 2009 08:20 am
There is no question that the UN, congress, and the public were defrauded by the Bush administration relative to the need to invade Iraq. To mention just one false claim, the administration knew full well that Iraq had no connection with 9/11, despite the many lies by Bush and company that it did.

Previous • Post: # 3,599,103 • Next
ican711nm
REPLY QUOTE REPORT Fri 13 Mar, 2009 08:31 am
Re: Advocate (Post 3599096)
The Bush administration never said, nor did it ever imply Iraq had any connection to 9/11.
Bush did say Saddam had a connection with al-Qaeda after al-Qaeda entered northeastern Iraq in December 2001, fleeing from the USA invasion of Afghanistan,. That alleged connection has never been proved or disproved.

Previous • Post: # 3,599,123 • Next
cicerone imposter
REPLY QUOTE REPORT Fri 13 Mar, 2009 08:53 am
Re: ican711nm (Post 3599103)
You're a goddam liar.

Previous • Post: # 3,599,140 • Next
ican711nm
REPLY QUOTE REPORT Fri 13 Mar, 2009 09:18 am
Re: cicerone imposter (Post 3599123)
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/kerry.powell.iraq/
…
(CNN) -- Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry accused the Bush administration Sunday of falsely linking Iraq to the attacks of September 11, 2001, "in its desperate attempts to reinvent a rationale for the Iraq war."
…
In June, Cheney said "we don't know" whether Iraq was involved in 9/11.
…
But at the time President Bush said, "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11 [attacks].
… End Quote
Kerry demonstrated his incompetence as a senator as well as as a candidate for president in this exchange. Neither Bush, Cheney, or Powell ever said Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11

You, cicerone imposter, are either incapable of accurately comprehending this article, or you knowingly misrepresented what it actually says, hoping I wouldn't read it!.

Previous • Post: # 3,599,235 • Next
cicerone imposter
REPLY QUOTE REPORT Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:52 am
Re: ican711nm (Post 3599140)
There is no such thing as a "slander bigot." When slander is true; nothing needs to support it when all evidence shows you are a liar.

Words have meanings, and the way the Bush criminals connected al Qaida with Saddam and terrorism implied they had a part in 9-11.

It's interesting that you are unable to put two plus two together here, but are completely blind when criticizing Obama's two months in office. You and okie belong in that special group of ignoramuses who doesn't have any common sense or logic in your prognostications on economics or politics. You two are just plain dumb, and makes me wonder how you two graduated from grade school.

2 Replies

@ican711nm,

I didn't read ican's total post, but know he repeats his ignorance ad nauseum.
He still can't believe all the misleading rhetoric by Bush and his gang before and after his attack on Iraq that was supposed to be about WMDs, and Saddam's connection to al Qaida.

0 Replies

@ican711nm,

REGARDING THE PHRASE: SLANDERING BIGOT
http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=SLANDER&x=21&y=8
Main Entry: 1slan·der
...
Function: noun
...
1 : utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage reputation
2 : a false tale or report maliciously uttered orally, tending to injure the reputation of another, and constituting a legal tort : a malicious oral utterance of false defamatory reports : malicious publication by speech of false tales or suggestions to the injury of another -- compare LIBEL
...

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=bigot&x=27&y=8
Main Entry: 1big·ot
...
Function: noun
...
2 : one obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion
...

Yes indeed, there is such a thing as a slandering bigot. Yes, cicerone imposter is a slandering bigot.

2 Replies

@ican711nm,

REGARDING THE VALID AND SUFFICIENT REASONS FOR INVADING IRAG:

Congress wrote:

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf,
Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

[11th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
…

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 09/08/2006, wrote:

Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq

General Franks, describing the Iraq invasion he led in March 2003, wrote:

American Soldier, by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges and a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."

page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all."

1 Reply

My, my, the lies from the right never cease.

"While not explicitly declaring Iraqi culpability in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, administration officials did, at various times, imply a link. In late 2001, Cheney said it was "pretty well confirmed" that attack mastermind Mohamed Atta had met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official. Later, Cheney called Iraq the "geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."

Bush, in 2003, said "the battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001."

Beyond the Sept. 11 attacks, administration officials have also suggested that there had been cooperation between Iraq and al Qaeda that went beyond contacts. Bush last year called Hussein "an ally of al Qaeda." Just this Monday, Cheney said Hussein "had long-established ties with al Qaeda."

In January, Cheney said the "best source" of information on the subject was an article in the Weekly Standard, which reported: "Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda -- perhaps even for Mohamed Atta -- according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum."

Bush, in a February 2003 radio address, said: "Iraq has sent bombmaking and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. This network runs a poison and explosive training camp in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad."

--The Washington Post

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@ican711nm,

You must first prove slander; truth is not slander.

0 Replies

@ican711nm,

ANOTHER VALID AND SUFFICIENT REASON FOR INVADING IRAQ:

Quote:

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

[7th]Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of the civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi cirizens wrongfully detained in Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Thanks! I guess you are admitting that the other provisions of the resolution are false premises. All the premises must be correct to support a Bush decision to invade.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

"All" when it involves the sacrifice of our military men and women now over 4,000 and counting. The money cost is also an issue at some $10 billion every month at a time when the GOP congress voted "no" on the stimulus plan that will help Americans. They would rather spend $10 billion in Iraq, but not millions for the American people - even though the majority of earmarks were presented by the GOP.

They are so confused, they don't know up from down, and right from left.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

even though the majority of earmarks were presented by the GOP.

Why do you keep repeating something you know isnt true?

Only about 40% of the earmarks were presented by the repubs, the rest came from the dems.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

No, you miss the point again; the earmarks were presented by 60% of the GOP. That's a fact you can check out.

It's also the conservatives that cried about pork and earmarks, but most of the earmarks were initiated by conservatives. You do miss the obvious.

Quote:

Republican Earmarks Taint Spending Criticism
Kyle Trygstad Kyle Trygstad Fri Mar 13, 3:19 pm ET

While Republicans criticize President Obama for not sticking to a campaign promise to rid government of wasteful spending, the GOP itself is finding trouble getting back to the kind of fiscal discipline its members say disappeared over the last several years they controlled Congress.

Republicans in Congress vilified Democrats for both the overall size and the number of earmarks attached to the $410 billion omnibus appropriations bill that Obama signed Wednesday. However, despite the rhetoric, Republicans requested 40 percent of the earmarks and ranked among the highest pork barrel spenders.

Six of the 10 senators that requested the most earmark dollars were Republicans, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, a non-partisan budget watchdog group. In the House, Republicans accounted for five of the top 10.

1 Reply

Quote:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=3889&R=C495A28
“A Lifesaving War
The death toll in Iraq would have been vastly higher over the last year if Saddam had remained in power.
by Gerard Alexander
03/29/2004, Volume 009, Issue 28
…
How many Iraqis were saved by the use of force against Saddam can be counted in several ways. At a bare minimum, several thousand Iraqis were saved from being killed in individual political murders. This includes political prisoners (including children) who poured from Saddam's dungeons at liberation, Shia activists, other dissenters, and military men suspected of disloyalty. Toppling Saddam also saved several thousand more at dire risk from his gradually rising violence against the Shia. If the Shia or Kurds were targeted with wholesale murder, as seemed increasingly likely, the regime could easily have resumed killing at its historic rate of 15,000 to 20,000 deaths a year. Specifically, the West's already existing threat to use force inside Iraq to protect Kurdistan--a threat whose credibility might well have collapsed if the Coalition had crumbled last year--saved tens of thousands more from certain death every year it was in place.
U.N. economic sanctions were also killing civilians. Critics regularly claimed sanctions caused 4,000 to 5,000 Iraqi children to die per month from poor nutrition and health care. UNICEF attributed some 500,000 unnecessary deaths to the sanctions in the 1990s. The sanctions remained in place as long as Saddam's regime refused to comply with international requirements. Liberation made it possible to lift the sanctions almost immediately--thus saving approximately 60,000 lives a year, if we use UNICEF's numbers.”
…

In Iraq, 1979 through 2002 according to Gerald Alexander:
Killing Deaths = 20,000 per year x 24 years = 480,000
UN Unnecessary Deaths due to Sanctions = 500,000

* Total = 480,000 + 500,000 = 980,000

===========================================================================

Encyclopedia Britannica Books of the Year wrote:

YEAR ..... IRAQ TOTAL .......ANNUAL .. ANNUAL ................................... ANNUAL
.............. POPULATION ....DEATHS .. NonViolent ………………………….... Violent
................................................................ Deaths ....................................... Deaths
2002 24,002,000 144,012 128,987 ........................................ 15,025
2001 23,332,000 144,658 125,386 ........................................ 19,272
2000 22,676,000 145,126 121,861 ........................................ 23,265
1999 22,427,000 165,960 120,523 ........................................ 45,437
1998 21,722,000 182,465 116,734 ........................................ 65,731
1997 22,219,000 208,859 119,405 ........................................ 89,454
1996 21,422,000 222,789 115,122 ........................................ 107,667
1995 20,413,000 206,171 109,700 ........................................ 96,471
1994 19,869,000 194,716 106,776 ........................................ 87,940
1993 19,435,000 158,395 104,444 ........................................ 53,951
1992 18,838,000 122,447 101,236 ........................................ 21,211
1991 18,317,000 128,219 98,436 ........................................ 29,783
1990 17,754,000 133,155 95,410 ........................................ 37,745
1989 17,215,000 137,720 92,514 ........................................ 45,206
1988 16,630,000 136,366 89,370 ........................................ 46,996
1987 16,476,000 138,398 88,542 ........................................ 49,856
1986 15,946,000 137,136 85,694 ........................................ 51,442
1985 15,676,000 136,381 84,243 ........................................ 52,138
1984 15,358,000 133,615 82,534 ........................................ 51,081
1983 15,040,000 130,848 80,825 ........................................ 50,023
1982 14,722,000 128,081 79,116 ........................................ 48,965
1981 14,404,000 125,315 77,407 ........................................ 47,908
1980 14,086,000 122,548 75,698 ........................................ 46,850
1979 13,768,000 119,782 73,989 ........................................ 45,793
TOTALS ...................... 3,603,162 2,373,952 ................................... 1,229,210

* Average = (980,000 + 1,229,210) / 2 = 1,104,605

Violent deaths per month 1979 through 2002 = 1,104,605 / (24 * 12) = 1,104,605 / 288 = 3,835

===========================================================================
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Documented civilian deaths from violence 91,077 " 99,452 from the beginning of the war to February 28, 2009 (since March 20, 2003)

Monthly table
.....2003.....2004.....2005.....2006....2007.....2008.....2009
Jan.....3.......568.....1035.....1430.....2806.....742.....275
Feb.....2.......604.....1201.....1449.....2536.....1007.....281
Mar.....3976.....957.....786.....1789.....2611.....1538
Apr.....3437.....1256.....1025.....1590.....2422.....1260
May.....545.....619.....1226.....2103.....2734.....759
Jun.....593.....833.....1215.....2426.....2086.....669
Jul.....650.....762.....1444.....3159.....2536.....583
Aug.....790.....823.....2165.....2743.....325.....591
Sep.....553......943.....1330.....2408.....1221.....535
Oct.....493.....947.....1201.....2924.....1185.....527
Nov......478.....1533.....1208.....2969.....1043.....472
Dec.....529.....906.....996.....2662.....903.....521
Year.12,049...10,751...14,832...27,652...24,408...9,204...556

Approximately 90% of these deaths were murders by al-Qaeda and other terrorists trying to end the new Iraq government. The remaining 10% were mistakenly killed by coalition and Iraq government troops.

Violent deaths per month March 20, 2003 thru February 20, 2009 = 99,452 / ((6 x 12)-1) = 99,452 / 71 = 1401

Ratio of average monthly violent Iraqi deaths, pre 2003, and post 2002 = 3835 / 1401 = 2.7

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Great post, ican.

0 Replies

There are lots of countries where the leader is inhumane and the people suffer and die because of it. Yet we don't go to war with each and every one unless a big imminent threat emerges like a genocide or a threat to another country. Neither of those were happening at a scale to warrant war at the time of the invasion in 03'. We went to war with Iraq based on the threat of WMD and Saddam being linked with AQ. Neither of which turned out to be true to the extent that they warranted war with Iraq at the time we invaded. North Korea posed more a threat as well as Pakistan and both have human right abuses in their country. We went to war with neither of those countries.

Ican I know what you are going to say, I have posted proof of what I say enough times over the years and feel no need to start all over again.

1 Reply

@revel,

revel, That's not the only issue about North Korea who shot long range missiles and our media reported them, but none were detected or found in Iraq.

Some people will never accept the obvious; WMDs and AQ connections were "never" found in Iraq after March 2003.

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The true sufficient reason for invading Afghanistan October 20, 2001 was the failure of its Taliban government to remove al-Qaeda from Afghanistan.

The true sufficient reason for invading Iraq March 20, 2003 was the failure of its Ba'ath government to remove Al-Qaeda from Iraq.

Al-Qaeda established sanctuary in Afghanistan in May, 1996. A little more than 5 years later al-Qaeda mass murdered almost 3,000 non-murdering Americans.

Al-Qaeda established sanctuary in Iraq in December, 2001. How many non-murdering Americans would al-Qaeda have mass murdered a little over 5 years later?

The false allegation made by the Bush Administration that Iraq possessed WMD was simply a false supplementary reason for invading Iraq.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

There was no corroborating relationship between AQ and Saddam Hussein, therefore, there was not sufficient reason to invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein at the time we did it. Guesses on probables is a preemptive measure and we have never fought wars on what may happen rather than what is about to happen or already is. It is highly doubtful Saddam would have had a sustainable relationship with AQ because he mistrusted them. Moreover, we knew about the small band of AQ which existed in the northern part of Iraq of which Saddam had no control. We flew planes there all the time, so it doubtful it would have grown. We could have flown planes there without having a full out invasion if at some point it would have been necessary. AQ has grown in Afghanistan and the mountain regions of Pakistan all the while we have been unnecessarily fighting in Iraq so that excuse don't work.

1 Reply

@revel,

ican doesn't even remember the "no fly zone" established by the US in Northern Iraq.

0 Replies

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

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