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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 04:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't agree c.i.

You lot created the problem. And here is proof of it.

Quote:
A2K Gatherings: Albu-May; Austin-SepOct Mark your calendar for 3d San Francisco Gathering for summer of 2009.


You can't stop can you? Will you be flying in Tibetan, fresh frozen Yak's milk to calm the coffee with so that your guests feel appropriately important.

Why can't you sit quietly in your rooms? Why do you always have to be up and doing and wearing yourself and anybody you are in contact with into a frazzle?

People who haven't got St Vitus's Dance are useless to loan salesmen.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 07:15 am
With the election and financial crises it has been hard to keep up with events in Iraq, namely because other than saying the surge has worked, no one talks about Iraq even though we still have our troop over there and there are still problems going on there which really don't look to be working out any time soon. One reason the surge partially successful was because of the years of violence ethnically cleansed areas of Baghdad (and other troubled cites) and sealed off people to live in these enclaves. This is not a permanent solution and did not solve any political problems.

Below is a study done on the subject and if you think about it objectively, it makes a lot of sense.
http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1953066020080919?sp=true

Anyway some update news of Iraq.

Quote:
Monday, September 29, 2008
Bombings in Baghdad Kill 34, Wound 100;
Arab-Kurdish Violence in Diyala

A wave of deadly bombings and other attacks swept Baghdad on Sunday, killing nearly three dozen persons and wounding over 100.

The attacks on Shiite neighborhoods were likely intended to remind the Iraqi public on the eve of Eid al-Fitr (the celebration of the end of the fasting month of Ramadan) that the Sunni guerrilla movement is still active and has not been defeated.

The situation in Iraq is dire, and the discourse about Iraq in the presidential campaign is often disconnected from reality. McCain is asserting that "victory" is at hand and rewriting his own history of support for Bush's invasion and policies there. Now the McCain people are trying to claim that McCain called for the resignation of former secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld, which he certainly did not.

And, the McCain call for "victory," meaning an Iraq that can police its own borders, begs the question of what those borders even are. ("Kurdistan" is not a settled place). See below.

The attacks come days after the Iraqi parliament finally approved enabling legislation for provincial elections. The parliamentarians agreed to postpone elections in the disputed oil province of Kirkuk.

I have long been a proponent of early provincial elections. The Sunni Arab provinces have never had proper elections since the January 2005 polls were boycotted because Bush leveled Fallujah. The elections could create a new post-Baath political elite in the Sunni Arab provinces that has legitimacy and actually represents big constituencies. Some of the trouble in Diyala comes from minority Shiite dominance of a majority Sunni province. If the al-Maliki government wants to find a Sunni negotiating partner (which is still unclear), the provincial leaders to be elected next winter could fit the bill. Some of them will go on to national political careers. A lot of Sunnis are still secular, and could begin the process of moving away from religious fundamentalist parties always dominating.

The likely emergence of significant political rivals among the Sunnis would cause the fundamentalist vigilantes to redouble their efforts to destabilize Iraq further.

On the other hand,that parliament had to postpone elections in Kirkuk is a very bad sign, as is the military and paramilitary conflict between Arabs and Kurds.

Kurds are reversing Saddam's ethnic cleansing drive of earlier decades, returning and expelling Arabs. Not all Kurds going to such regions are returnees, and not all the Arabs being forced out are internal migrants.

Iraqi police and Kurdish paramilitary members seem to have had a shoot-out in Jalaula on Sunday that left a Kurdish politician dead.

In nearby Sa'adiya, a Kurdish mayor was wounded in a bombing.

McClatchy reports details of political violence in Iraq on Sunday:

' Baghdad

- Around 8 a.m. a roadside bomb targeted an Iraqi army vehicle in Mansour neighborhood, killing one soldier and injuring two soldiers and a civilian.

- Around 1 p.m. American soldiers searched an empty house in Zayuna neighborhood and shot randomly, injuring two civilians in the area, Iraqi police said. U.S. military said they had no information about the incident.

- Around 5:30 p.m. a parked car bomb exploded in a busy market in Shurta Rabaa neighborhood, southwest Baghdad, killing 12 civilians and injuring 35 others.

- Around 5:30 p.m. a bomb planted in a car exploded on a main road near Al Bayaa neighborhood, killing one and injuring one.

- Around 7 p.m. a parked car bomb exploded in the busy market area of Karrada neighborhood in central Baghdad, followed by a roadside bomb that killed 19 civilians and injured 72 others.

- Police found two dead bodies throughout Baghdad, one near Al Rasheed Camp and one in Hurriyah.

Diyala

- Around 9 a.m. a roadside bomb targeted Ahmed Samir Zargush, the mayor of Al Saidiyah town, about 50 miles east of Baquba. Zargush was injured along with three of his bodyguards and two civilians.

Nineveh

- Gunmen killed one citizen, a Christian, in Al Baladiyat neighborhood and in another incident gunmen killed a man and injured his brother in Mosul.'


http://www.juancole.com/labels/Iraq.html

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 10:34 am
@revel,
revel, The more important message is that the "surge" was not what McCain claims; the Brookings Institute has studied this issue and said that the violence was reduced "before the surge."

The surge actually stopped negotiations between the tribes, because they now felt comfort about their security. Just the opposite of what Petraeus said was necessary for success.

Most people have already forgotten this "history," because they refuse to remember those painful truths.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 11:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
More cicerone imposter malarkey.
Quote:
The more important message is that the "surge" was not what McCain claims; the Brookings Institute has studied this issue and said that the violence was reduced "before the surge."

Quote:

http://icasualties.org/oif/
Military Deaths By Year/Month
Period US UK Other Total DayCount Avg
10-2008 1 0 0 1 5 0.2
9-2008 25 0 0 25 30 0.83
8-2008 23 0 0 23 31 0.74
7-2008 13 0 0 13 31 0.42
6-2008 29 0 2 31 30 1.03
5-2008 19 0 2 21 31 0.68
4-2008 52 0 0 52 30 1.73
3-2008 39 1 0 40 31 1.29
2-2008 29 1 0 30 29 1.03
1-2008 40 0 0 40 31 1.29

Quote:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Non-military Deaths by Year/Month
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Jan 3 576 1017 1423 2795 741
Feb 2 584 1184 1447 2492 976
Mar 3976 956 772 1765 2569 1537
Apr 3437 1251 1014 1589 2418 1259
May 545 619 1222 2095 2732 758
Jun 593 832 1214 2423 2085 669
Jul 648 754 1433 3127 2531 582
Aug 791 823 2165 2740 2324 284
Sep 548 941 1321 2405 1221 .....
Oct 488 930 1199 2917 1189 .....
Nov 479 1532 1192 2966 1039 .....
Dec 525 904 981 2656 899 .....

The people of the Brookings Institute are either misquoted by cice, or are fools, or frauds.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 11:36 am
@ican711nm,
And whatever they are they are certainly not the fount of wisdom.

Another Big City voice.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 06:52 am
Quote:
Turkish warplanes bombed suspected Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) positions in northern Iraq on Monday, Oct. 6, three days after a PKK attack on a border post killed 15 Turkish soldiers.

According to a statement released by the Turkish General Staff, the warplanes bombed PKK positions in the mountainous Avasin region of northern Iraq.

"The planes returned safely to base after successfully completing their mission," the statement said. Turkish jets also attacked positions in the same area on Sunday night.

The attack on Friday night on the Aktutun border post in the south-eastern province of Hakkari that left 15 soldiers and 23 PKK separatists dead has shocked Turkey and led to the General Staff on Sunday announcing that it was to relocate five military border posts.

A spokesman for the military said the administration of the Kurdish autonomous area in Iraq had not helped in the fight against the PKK, despite overtures by Iraq's Kurdish President Jalal Talabani.

After the attack Talabani called his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul to propose a meeting of high-ranking security experts from both sides, suggesting Iraqi willingness to help Turkey de-escalate the situation.

The Turkish Air Force has conducted a number of airstrikes against PKK targets in northern Iraq since a week-long cross-border incursion into northern Iraq was launched in February.

Ankara blames the separatist group for the deaths of more than 35,000 people since the early 1980s when the PKK began its fight for independence or autonomy for the mainly Kurdish-populated south-east of Turkey.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3694371,00.html

Quote:
Rice: Iraq 'harder' than she 'personally imagined'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday the road for the U.S. in Iraq has been "harder, longer, and more difficult than I personally imagined" and warned that despite some recent progress, success in Iraq is "not a sure thing."


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/06/rice.iraq/index.html?section=cnn_latest



0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 10:03 am
@ican711nm,
More BS from ican, the guy who lives with casualty numbers and nothing else:

Stephen Biddle
Senior Fellow for Defense Policy, Council on Foreign Relations

The original idea behind the surge was to reduce the violence in Baghdad in order to enable Iraqis to negotiate the kind of national power-sharing deal we thought would be necessary to stabilize the country. Chaos in the capital, it was thought, made negotiated compromise impossible; by deploying more US troops to the city and assigning them the mission of direct population security, it was hoped that a safe space could be created within which the national leaders of Iraq's Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds could afford to take the risks inherent in compromise.

The violence came down, but the compromise did not follow. Although some slow, grudging political progress has been made, the pace has lagged far behind the original intentions of the surge's designers. Many, prominently including the Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill, were prepared to declare the surge a failure given its inability to produce the reconciliation deal that was the whole point originally.

In the meantime, however, a completely different possibility arose -- one that was neither planned nor anticipated nor intended when the surge was designed, but which has nevertheless become central to the prospects for stability in Iraq. This "Anbar Model" or "bottom-up" approach began with a group of Sunni tribal sheiks in Anbar Province, then quickly spread to Sunnis elsewhere in Iraq and now to many Shiites as well. " From testimony to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.

Shawn Brimley
Fellow, Center for a New American Security

The narrative surrounding the "surge" has been overly simplified by the McCain campaign. Senator McCain's mistake in claiming that the "surge" which started in the spring of 2007 caused the Sunni's to turn against al-Qaeda is clearly false. The Sunni tribes began to shift their allegiances in the Fall of 2006, in no small part due to the actions of U.S. troops in Anbar. The decline in violence in 2007 had much more to do with a change in U.S. strategy than simply the additional troops. A change in strategy, plus the Sunni Awakening, the decision of Sadr to stand down his militia, and the use of concrete barriers in Baghdad to separate Sunni and Shia were all extremely important factors that, along with the additional troops, combined to help lower the violence.

Finally, as Colonel Sean McFarland argued in Military Review: "A growing concern that the U.S. would leave Iraq and leave the Sunnis defenseless against al-Qaeda and Iranian-supported militias made these younger leaders open to our overtures."

The additional troops were an important contributing factor in reducing the violence, but only one of several variables. By downplaying the impact that a credible threat of withdrawal had in producing the security gains in 2007, the McCain campaign is grossly simplifying the war for political gain.

Juan Cole
Richard P. Mitchell Distinguished University Professor of History, University of Michigan

Decline of violence causes:

1. Dulaim tribesmen in Anbar developed a feud with Salafi Jihadis, who were hitting Dulaim young men who tried to join police; Dulaim took money from the United States to fight jihadis.

2. Shiite militias ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Sunnis from Baghdad and environs, leaving few mixed neighborhoods and less opportunity for neighborhood killings. (Baghdad went from 65 percent Shiite in Jan. 2007 to 75 percent Shiite by late last summer.)

3. Extra oil income strengthened Iraqi security forces.

4. Badr Corps paramilitary of Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq won out in South over Sadr's movement, with help of Iraqi police and army and U.S. air support (e.g. Diwaniya, Karbala).

5. Sunnis left in West Baghdad took money from United States to form anti-jihadi militias.

6. Extra U.S. troops in Baghdad put in blast walls, no-drive markets, bridge and other checkpoints -- which may have had some impact in capital, though ethnic cleansing of the Sunnis was more important.

Matthew Duss
Research Associate, Center for American Progress

It's difficult to disentangle the various elements that contributed to the decrease in violence in Iraq over the last months, but I think it's generally understood that the decrease is related to four main factors:

1. The Awakenings movement (Sahwas) and the new U.S. counterinsurgency approach which this involved, in which Sunni militias allied with U.S. forces against al-Qaeda in Iraq.

2. The decision by Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to "freeze" his Jaysh al-Mahdi militia in the wake of violent clashes in the shrine city of Karbala in late August 2007.

3. The separation of Sunni and Shia Iraqis into protected enclaves as a result of the 2006-2007 campaign of sectarian cleansing by Sunni and Shia militias in Baghdad, and the construction of concrete barriers around these enclaves.

4. The troop surge. In my view, the addition of some 30,000 more U.S. troops to Iraq encouraged, supported and consolidated each of these other phenomena, but very likely could not have succeeded without them.




It's important to realize that the new strategy has its costs. The "Anbar strategy" which is the center-piece of the surge violates a central tenet of counterinsurgency doctrine in that it does not redirect political authority toward the central government.
The deals that have been made are between Sunni tribal militias and U.S. forces, not the Iraqi government. There are still an estimated 90,000 Sunni militia members expecting government jobs, and little sign that the Shia-controlled Iraqi government intends to provide them. It's true that security is a prerequisite for state-building, but if that security only comes at the expense of the legitimacy of the state we're supposedly trying to build, then we have an entirely new problem on our hands.

Colin Kahl
Senior Fellow, Center for a New American Security

There is no doubt that the surge coincided with a huge improvement in the security situation in Iraq. The causal relationship between the surge and improved security conditions, however, is more complex. The significant increase in U.S. combat forces in Baghdad and surrounding areas, coupled with much improved counterinsurgency practices, was certainly one factor contributing to a reduction in violence. But the bigger reason for the decline was a change in U.S. strategy to engage
"reconcilable" Iraqi combatants -- not troop numbers per se. The key reasons for the decline in violence -- the decisions by Sunni and Shia militants to switch sides or stand on the sidelines, and the separation and exhaustion of warring parties in Baghdad -- were partly a result of this strategic shift and partly due to other conflict dynamics that were well underway before, or otherwise independent from, the surge.

Perhaps the most decisive reason for improved security in Iraq was the Sunni Awakening: the successful effort to recruit Sunni tribes and former insurgents to cooperate with U.S. forces against AQI. The Awakening began in the fall 2006 in Ramadi with the formation of the Anbar Salvation Council. The Council represented a group of tribal sheiks that revolted against AQI atrocities, power grabs, and encroachments into tribal economic activities. The beginning of the movement predated the surge and was spurred, in part, by increasing concerns that U.S. forces might withdraw and leave Sunnis vulnerable to AQI and Shia militias. Nevertheless, nimble U.S. commanders effectively exploited the growing wedge between Sunni tribes and AQI to forge cooperative arrangements, and the tribes responded by providing thousands of men to serve in auxiliary security forces. The result was a dramatic reduction in violence in Anbar, once the hotbed of the Sunni insurgency. Although the surge did not spark the Awakening, the new American approach in 2007 did help it spread outward from Anbar. The real cause was not the additional troops per se, but rather a change in strategy. In particular, during the summer of 2007, General Petraeus and Lieutenant General Raymond Odierno, then the number-two commander in Iraq, encouraged brigade and battalion commanders to apply the Anbar model elsewhere by striking deals with portions of the Sunni insurgency.

Another crucial factor contributing to improved security was the decision by Sadr to curtail the armed activities of his militia. On August 28, 2007, a ferocious gun battle erupted between JAM and the Badr Organization -- the rival militia associated with Sadr's principal rival, ISCI -- during a festival in Karbala. The clash killed dozens and wounded hundreds. The following day, Sadr announced a six-month freeze on all armed actions by JAM, and, in February 2008, the truce was extended for another six months. The motivations behind the freeze remain unclear. Sadr undoubtedly sought to avoid a direct clash with U.S. forces at the peak of the surge. But his decision was also intended to improve JAM's image in the face of growing accusations of criminal behavior and gain more control over his fractious organization.

A final reason for the reduction in violence during the surge period was prior sectarian cleansing. Since the beginning of the war, more than four million Iraqis have fled the country or become internally displaced. The acceleration of sectarian cleansing in 2006 and early 2007 had the perverse effect of driving down subsequent violence by segregating groups in Baghdad into defensible enclaves -- enclaves that have increasingly walled off from one another by concrete barriers erected by U.S. forces.

Lawrence Korb
Senior Fellow, Center for American Progress

There can be no doubt that there has been considerable improvement in the Iraqi security environment over the last 18 months. The escalation of nearly 30,000 U.S. troops -- along with General Petraeus' employment of counterinsurgency tactics -- have played a role in reducing violence to its lowest levels since 2004. More crucial to the improved Iraqi security environment are factors that either predate the surge or had nothing to do with it in the first place.

Much of the recent decline in violence in Iraq must be credited to the emergence of Sunni "awakening" groups and Sons of Iraq militias. Contrary to the assertions of supporters of remaining in Iraq indefinitely, these groups were co-opted by U.S. forces in the early fall of 2006, long before the surge even began. Moreover, according to commanders on the ground, the prospect of a U.S. withdrawal in the lead up to the 2006 midterm elections was the main impetus for this cooperation.

The unilateral stand down of Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army is equally important. Like the co-option of the "Sons of Iraq" militias, this development was not a result of the surge nor was it instigated by the Iraqi government. Conflict levels have also diminished as a result of population displacements and sectarian separation-a polite way to say a sectarian cleansing campaign. At best, the decline in sectarian violence can be viewed as an untenable pause that came about as a result of segregating Baghdad neighborhoods rather than as a result of a true cessation of hostilities. But, while a reduction in violence has produced a tenuous security balance in Iraq, it has failed to produce a sustainable equilibrium in the country that locks in what security and political gains have been made over the last 18 months. In order to truly take advantage these gains, the U.S. must use a credible withdrawal as a lever to force political change in Iraq while pushing Iraq's competing powers to recalculate their self-interest in light of a U.S. withdrawal.

Lt. Col. (ret) John Nagl
Author, Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife: Counterinsurgency Lesson from Malaya and Vietnam

There are many causes for the recent, and very welcome, decline in violence in Iraq; all are connected to a better application of counterinsurgency principles. As important as the increase in American troop strength was the employment of those soldiers and Marines in Joint Security Stations to protect the Iraqi population on a full-time basis. The Sunni Awakening, in which the Sunni tribes of al Anbar turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq, actually had its origins prior to General Petraeus' arrival in theater; some units were already planting the seeds that flowered into the Awakening as far back as 2003. Muqtada al-Sadr's decision not to actively contest the American presence was also enormously helpful in breaking the cycle of violence that was so destructive in 2006. Meanwhile, years of patient work nurturing the Iraqi Security Forces are finally beginning to pay off with forces that are increasingly capable, competent -- and responsive to the rule of law.

Although it is far too soon to be doing victory dances in the end zone, it is past time to think about how to transfer some of the hard-earned lessons from countering insurgency in Iraq to the campaign in Afghanistan. Chief among those lessons are the importance of local militias and host nation security forces -- empowered and enabled by American advisors -- in defeating insurgencies.

Michael O'Hanlon
Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution

What was the most important factor in the dramatic turnaround in Iraq over the past year or so (a period during which violence rates have declined by at least 75 percent and about half of key legislative goals have been partially or fully satisfied, even if much remains to be done?) There is room for some debate in this matter, to be sure, but only so much. It seems incontrovertible to me that several major factors, including certainly the surge, were hugely important--and also synergistically important, in that the sum of effects was much greater than the sum of the parts.

Certainly the Sunni Anbar Awakening gets high marks. It was the first thing to happen in the last two years of major note. It brought much of the core of the insurgency into alliance with the United States and Iraqi government, and over time it spread to the Baghdad belts and increasingly to the north of Iraq.

However, it was the United States that organized the Awakening tribes into a coherent military and policing effort. It was the United States, with Iraqi Security Forces, that cleared cities like Ramadi -- and unlike in past efforts, kept forces there afterwards to preserve the stability and keep extremists like al-Qaeda in Iraq out of the places from which they had been driven. It was the United States that sufficiently intimidated Muqtada al-Sadr into realizing a ceasefire better served his interests than would a renewal of battle. It was American and Iraqi security forces that, in larger numbers than before and with new operational guidelines and tactics, built blast barriers near markets, put up concrete dividers along sectarian fault lines in Baghdad, created joint security stations and started walking the streets to protect the Iraqi population, and conducted raids on insurgent safehouses and weapons caches at two to three times the rate of previous years (largely due to improved intelligence made possible by a safer, friendler, better protected population).
And through all these combined efforts, it was largely the United States that was able to figure out which Iraqi commanders needed to be purged -- and that then put pressure on the Iraqi government to replace them.

And how long will the US be engaged in Iraq? As McCain said, "100 years."
That's progress?

On balance, many things were important, but the surge and the associated emphasis on better protection for the Iraqi population were crucial -- and absolutely necessary to the huge progress that has been made.

Marina Ottaway
Middle East Program Director, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

The formation of the Awakening councils and Muqtada al-Sadr's decision to stand down were the most important factors. This is reflected in the constant refrain by U.S. military commanders and the administration that progress remains fragile. If progress was the result of a military victory resulting from the surge, it would not easily be reversed. Muqtada al-Sadr's decision to stand down, and even the decision of the members of the awakening coincils to fight al-Qaeda rather than the US are eminently reversible.

Thomas E. Ricks
Author, Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq

The surge has worked tactically, but hasn't succeeded strategically, at least not yet. Remember that its stated purpose was not just to improve security, but to lead to a breakthrough in Iraqi politics. That hasn't yet happened. That is, the basic questions about the future of Iraq haven't been addressed--the sharing of oil revenue, the political place of the Sunnis, who holds power in the Shiite community, and the future of Kirkuk.




McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 10:25 am

Ican't is a very very silly chap. Very.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 10:37 am
@McTag,
I came to that conclusion 3 years ago.

Where are you now McT? Albequerque, Alaska? Stockport?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 11:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
Thomas E. Ricks , Author, Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq wrote:

The surge has worked tactically, but hasn't succeeded strategically, at least not yet. Remember that its stated purpose was not just to improve security, but to lead to a breakthrough in Iraqi politics. That hasn't yet happened. That is, the basic questions about the future of Iraq haven't been addressed--the sharing of oil revenue, the political place of the Sunnis, who holds power in the Shiite community, and the future of Kirkuk.

It took Americans 13 years (1776 - 1789)--mainly with the help of the French-- to win their independence and adopt their Constitution which was last amended 1992.

The Iraqis are in their 6th year (March 2003 - October 2008 ) struggling--mainly with the help of the Americans-- to accomplish the same thing. The Iraqis have a more difficult problem than we had back in the 18th century. They are under repeated attack by people living with their neighbors.

March 2016 is 13 years from March 2003. I bet the Iraqis will be able to secure their freedom without our help before then.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 11:05 am
@ican711nm,
ican, Quit your BS. The war in Iraq was started on the basis of their WMDs.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 10:34 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, Quit your BS. The war in Iraq was started on the basis of their WMDs.
The alleged motives of some of the members of the Bush administration for the USA invading Iraq are not relevant. What is relevant are the actual valid reasons for the USA to have invaded Iraq.

Congress wrote:
Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

[11th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;

General Tommy Franks in his book American Soldier, 7/1/2004 wrote:

page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges an a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."

page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all."


Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in its Congressional Intelligence Report , 09/08/2006 wrote:

Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 10:40 am
@ican711nm,
The way Bush started the war in Iraq "is" very relevant; not only was it bad judgment to start the war, the operation of the war was total incompetence with no end game.

Everything else you claim has no credibility or meaning.

One bad judgment followed by many bad judgments only made things worse not only for the Iraqis, but for our country and the world, because it increased terrorism - not diminished it at very high costs in human lives and treasure.

BTW, I quit reading your post after your first paragraph.

0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 10:44 am
Quote:
Turkish parliament extends mandate on Iraq strikes
1 day ago

ANKARA (AFP) " Turkey's parliament Wednesday extended the government's mandate to order strikes against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq as an attack on a police bus in the country's southeast killed five people.

The assault came just days after rebels from the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) killed 17 soldiers in a daytime attack on a military outpost near the border with Iraq.

The motion, which gives the government another year-long authorisation for cross-border operations against PKK hideouts in northern Iraq, won backing from all parties in parliament, except the Democratic Society Party, the country's main Kurdish political movement.

Deputy parliament speaker Guldal Mumcu initially announced that 511 lawmakers had voted for the motion, but session minutes published later revised the number down to 497 as several deputies had cast multiple votes.

As parliament was in session, suspected PKK assailants opened fire on a bus carrying employees of the police academy in Diyarbakir, the main city in the Kurdish-populated southeast, killing the driver and four police officers.

Nineteen other officers were injured in the attack.

"These (attacks) will not daunt us. We will continue our struggle until the terrorist organisation lays down arms," Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said after the vote, using the official jargon for the PKK.

The bloodshed is likely to increase nationwide outrage triggered by Friday's attack, in which PKK rebels tried to take out an outpost in the border province of Hakkari, under cover of heavy weapons fire from northern Iraq.

The ensuing clashes killed 23 militants, the army said.

Security operations intensified inside Turkey after the assault and four militants were killed in Sirnak province late Tuesday, while a wounded soldier died in hospital in Diyarbakir, officials said Wednesday.

The motion leaves it up to the government to decide on the scope and timing of a cross-border operation and Erdogan said Tuesday that such an operation would be carried out "if need be, at the right time and under the right conditions."

The prime minister is to attend a meeting of civilian and military leaders, among them army chief Ilker Basbug, on Thursday to discuss fresh measures against the PKK, most likely including economic and social steps to erode support for the group.

"Tomorrow, we will look over our new road map and prepare the ground, I believe, for a decision for some steps that we will take," Erdogan said without giving details.

He said opposition calls to set up a military buffer zone inside northern Iraq to stop rebel infiltrations would also be discussed, but also signalled his reluctance about the move.

"If it is really necessary, we will take this step," he said.

Under the mandate that parliament renewed, the Turkish army has carried out several air strikes in northern Iraq as well as a week-long ground incursion in February.

The operations were backed by intelligence from the United States, which is nevertheless worried that a large-scale Turkish intervention could destabilise Iraq's relatively calm north.

Since January, Turkish forces have killed 640 PKK militants, about 400 of them in cross-border operations in northern Iraq, according to army figures.

Turkish officials charge that about 2,000 PKK rebels are holed up in the autonomous enclave, where they allegedly enjoy free movement, are tolerated by the region's Kurdish leaders and obtain weapons and explosives for attacks in Turkey.

Iraqi authorities have repeatedly pledged to curb the PKK, but say the group takes refuge in mountainous regions difficult to access.

The PKK -- considered a terrorist group by Turkey, the United States and the European Union -- has been fighting for self-rule in the mainly Kurdish southeast and east of Turkey since 1984. The conflict has claimed some 44,000 lives.


http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iB3uNPJ8FJ3DvaJ6yabsDCOM1Ldw




0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 10:53 am
@ican711nm,
History is not my strong suit, but Ican, I am sure you are misrepresenting the comparison of French and our American Revolution in comparion to our occupation of Iraq.

The French did not invade and occupy our country like we did Iraq. Americans started the revolution war against England and the French assisted us some but Americans were in charge every step of the way including how we set up our government in the first place, it is completely different and you know it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 11:13 am
@revel,
If I remember our visit to Ticonderoga, NY, some years ago, Americans fought both the Brits and the French several times.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 11:26 am
@revel,
revel wrote:
... Ican, I am sure you are misrepresenting the comparison of French and our American Revolution in comparion to our occupation of Iraq.

The French did not invade and occupy our country like we did Iraq. Americans started the revolution war against England and the French assisted us some but Americans were in charge every step of the way including how we set up our government in the first place, it is completely different and you know it.
Correct, the French did not invade any of the 13 colonies during the revolutionary war. But the French for a while colonized parts of what is now the lower 48 states of America.

Apparently I didn't make my point clear enough for you.

My point was that the time the Iraqis have SO FAR taken to secure their freedom, with the help of America in the 21st century, is less than half what it took Americans to do the same thing, with the help of France, in the 18th century.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 11:49 am
@ican711nm,
And my point is that we didn't need the french to do it, neither do the Iraqis. We had to go through years of violence and upheaval with our civil wars, wars against the Indians and the civil rights movements and all that, the Iraqis will have to do the same. At the end of the day though, it will be their country and not an extension of the US.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 11:17 am
@revel,
revel wrote:
And my point is that we didn't need the french to do it ...

Yes we did need the French to help us. The British were winning until the French blockaded the harbor at Yorktown, Virginia enabling Washington's troops to get the major British force there to surrender. French loans and other material aid were also necessary for Americans to defeat the British and become an independent nation capable of securing their own freedom without the help of other states.

It took Americans 13 years to achieve that condition. So far the Iraqis have taken less than 6 years to arrive at their current condition. America giving them help for less than 7 more years would be a stupid invitation to al-Qaeda to try again to establish themselves in Iraq, and it would be a serious failure to meet our obligations to the Iraqis and to ourselves.

revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 11:53 am
@ican711nm,
Like I said history is not my strong suit and I am not going to go and google all that you just wrote. I never denied they helped us. What I deny is that they played the dominent role we have played and continue to play in Iraq. I have never even heard anybody else trying to compare the two in any way.
 

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