9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 07:59 am
Is the Bush surge already failing?

Quote:
The president just gave a rosy assessment of his plan, but insurgents have adapted and Iraqis continue to be slaughtered.

Mar. 08, 2007 | On Tuesday, President Bush said that "even at this early hour, there are some encouraging signs" that the so-called surge is working in Iraq. In fact, three weeks into what the president refers to as the "surge" and what Iraqis call the "new security plan," it's already clear that Bush's last-gasp bid for victory faces challenges that can't necessarily be surmounted by a few thousand additional troops.

With plenty of warning of the U.S. escalation, the Shiite Mahdi Army is lying low. Meanwhile, the Iraqi army and the much better equipped and trained U.S. military have made no appreciable progress against the real drivers of the country's civil war, Sunni Arab guerrillas, who have so far adapted successfully to the new deployments. And perhaps most important, a new spate of massive and deadly bombings has spread insecurity and further compromised the Iraqi government.

The neo-Baathists, Iraqi nationalists and Muslim fundamentalists who make up the insurgency have responded in several ways to the U.S. decision to put extra troops into Anbar Province and Baghdad. First, they have stood their ground, refusing to cede these two pieces of territory to the Americans or the Iraqi government, and they have changed their military tactics.

The Sunni Arab fighters appear to have made a tactical decision to target U.S. helicopters, and perhaps they have recently gotten hold, in the shadowy global arms market, of more sophisticated shoulder-held missile launchers. They have shot down eight U.S. helicopters in the past two months, several of them after the new security plan began. This tactic has made it more difficult for the U.S. to give American and Iraqi troops close air support, and has forced the U.S. to deploy bombers from greater altitudes against suspected guerrilla safe houses. In turn, bombing from a distance increases the likelihood that the U.S. will make a mistake and hit a house full of civilians, providing Iraqi, Arab and European media with heartbreaking footage of children being dug out of the rubble.

The guerrillas have not ceased their attacks in Anbar Province, a key focus of the escalation, where the U.S. military is adding some 4,000 extra troops. Guerrillas have bombed police stations and other sites in major cities like Ramadi and Tikrit on more than one occasion, sometimes killing and wounding dozens of people at a time. On Feb. 24 in Habbaniya, another town in Anbar, guerrillas used a truck bomb to attack a Sunni mosque that was cooperating with the Americans, killing 45 and wounding 110. They have killed a number of U.S. soldiers and Marines.

At the same time that some cells have refused to fall silent or go underground in Baghdad and Anbar, the Sunni Arab guerrillas have shifted some of their attacks to Diyala and Ninevah Provinces, which have Sunni Arab majorities but are not included in the new security arrangements. On Monday, they used a roadside bomb to kill six U.S. troops in Salahuddin Province, and another three in Diyala Province. In February, attacks on U.S. troops were up 70 percent in Diyala, according to the Associated Press. Diyala has a Sunni Arab majority, but because the Sunnis boycotted the last provincial elections, the provincial government, the police and the federal troops are all predominantly Shiite. Locally, American forces are seen primarily as enablers of the Shiite fundamentalist Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. It is not just Diyala. Guerrillas in recent months have driven thousands of Kurds from the large northern city of Mosul, and they have resorted to death squad tactics, often leaving half a dozen bodies in the street at night.

In attempting to suppress the Sunni militants, American troops are not receiving much help from the Iraqi army. The Iraqi brass have had trouble just convincing their troops to come to Baghdad from the provinces to fight. Several battalions have arrived at less than full strength, some of them only 42 percent filled. If troops will not obey a simple order to deploy several hundred miles away from their hometowns, it is difficult to see in what way they can defend the government in Baghdad. Nor had the units from the largely Shiite south managed to establish security in their home regions. As for the two Kurdish units, their deployment against the Arabs of Baghdad is controversial and likely to exacerbate ethnic tensions in the north.

The other problem with Bush's talk of "encouraging signs" is the steep increase in civilian casualties. Since the security plan began, the guerrillas have pulled off a whole series of horrific bombings right in downtown Baghdad, within spitting distance of the Green Zone, where the U.S. and the Iraqi government planned out the new security arrangements.

On Tuesday, the same day Bush gave his rosy assessment of the surge, Sunni Arab guerrillas bombed processions of Shiite pilgrims commemorating the martyrdom of the grandson of the Prophet Mohammed, al-Husayn. They killed some 115 pilgrims. News of the pilgrims' deaths undermined the American claims to be able to provide security, and will certainly eventually result in reprisal killings. Many Shiites believe that the Mahdi Army did a much better job of providing security for the religious processions, and that for the U.S to disarm them this year was a deadly mistake. Since these attempts to target the pilgrims were predictable, it is difficult to understand why the al-Maliki government and the U.S. did not forestall them.

A day earlier, guerrillas set off a car bomb on the famed al-Mutanabbi Street, home of numerous bookshops, on the shelves of which sat rare books and manuscripts that were emblematic of Iraq's deep culture. The explosion killed 38 people and wounded 105, destroying automobiles and setting shops ablaze, sending charred pages of poetry spattered with blood into the sky like leaves in a hurricane. The street has a sentimental value for educated Iraqis and news of the blasts reminded some of them of the predations of bloodthirsty Mongol Gen. Hulagu Khan in 1258.

The previous Monday, Feb. 26, someone blew up government offices during a visit by Iraq's Shiite vice president, Adil Abdul Mahdi, killing 10 persons and wounding many others, including a cabinet secretary. The bruised and scratched vice president barely escaped with his life. Abdul Mahdi angrily accused high officials of his own government of complicity in the assassination plot, without naming names. The day before that, guerrillas bombed offices at the al-Mustansiriya University, killing 41 persons, mainly students, and wounding a similar number. It was the second time the university students were targeted in as many weeks.

This string of major bombings has shaken to the core the confidence of the Iraqi people in the new security plan. Most days there are three or four bombings or mortar attacks in Baghdad. The police corpse patrol in the capital comes upon fewer bodies each day now than last December, but it is not unusual for them to find 15 to 30 bodies every morning, hardly a reassuring figure.

The U.S. strategy assumes that if violence can be dramatically reduced in Baghdad and Anbar, that will give the al-Maliki government breathing room and allow it to assert itself more forcefully. But so far the government hasn't been afforded much relief from the horrific attacks that daily undermine its credibility with the public and provoke destabilizing tribal and religious feuds. That matters, because if Iraqis do not feel that their government can protect them from violence, they will turn again to guerrillas and militiamen. These paramilitary forces, based in the neighborhoods, in turn carry out ethnic cleansing and attacks on police, and further undermine the authority of the central government.

Last summer, Bush explained of Iraq that "victory means a free government that is able to sustain itself, defend itself; it's a government that will be an ally in the war on terror. It's a government that will be able to fight off al-Qaida and its desires to have a safe haven."

There is still no good evidence that the Iraqi government can achieve "freedom" or that it can sustain or defend itself anytime soon. On Tuesday, the Iraqi parliament failed to convene because it could not garner the requisite quorum. The stony-faced prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, is speaking darkly of having parliamentarians arrested for involvement in death squad activity, and of dismissing from his cabinet members of the Shiite bloc of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr that helped elect him in the first place. As a parliamentary democracy, Iraq is broken.

Contrary to what the president says, there is so far no reason to believe that the new security plan has made a big difference in the lives of Iraqis. The massacre of the Shiite pilgrims this week is among the more ominous developments. Protecting the pilgrims was the most important thing the government could have done. That so many were killed is no harbinger of progress. Three weeks into the surge, the Sunni Arab guerrillas are running rings around both al-Maliki's forces and those of the U.S. How some extra troops for half a year will change that remains about as clear as Baghdad's sky during a spring sandstorm.


-- By Juan Cole


If I was an ordinary Iraqi forced to live in such a hostile violent surrounds; I would look to the militias before the Iraqi government too. At least they can actually do something rather than just be a sitting duck/puppet for Bush.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 11:10 am
Quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Military force alone is not sufficient to end the violence in Iraq and political talks must eventually include some militant groups now opposing the U.S.-backed government, the new commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said Thursday. "This is critical," Gen. David Petraeus said in his first news conference since taking over command last month. He noted that such political negotiations "will determine in the long run the success of this effort."


You mean negotiate with terrorists? I thought Bush said America will never talk to terrorist, like Iran, Syria or the Sunnis insurgent groups in Iraq.

Quote:


Could it be we're losing our ass and even Bush has now realized that we have to negotiate with terrorist, like it or not.

All this must be the fault of the notorious Soros Gang, that group of terrorist loving, America hating LIBERALS.

From Fox Noise July 10, 2004.

Quote:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123439,00.html

Guess they will have to eat their words.

Quote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070308/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AiM9j_xRa8bbDDThzRoTLAWs0NUE

So negotiations did do something; it prevented Americans from being killed. It appears saving American lives is not a high priority with the Bush administration.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 11:28 am
i watched an interview that king abdullah of jordan gave yesterday after his address to the u.s. congress .
he stated that in his opinion peace will not come to iraq unless the peace can be brought to israel and palestine first .
he even said that wihout bringing peace to israel/palestine quickly , there will likely be an explosion in the middle east that will effect the rest of the world .

but is anyone listening ?
hbg



Quote:
Jordan's King Abdullah Urges U.S. To Work for Mideast Peace
Washington -- Jordan's King Abdullah II called on the United States to assume a central role in resolving the longstanding Israeli-Palestinian conflict, telling a joint session of the U.S. Congress March 7 that �the security of all nations and the stability of our global economy are directly affected by the Middle East conflict.�

(Media-Newswire.com) - Washington -- Jordan�s King Abdullah II called on the United States to assume a central role in resolving the longstanding Israeli-Palestinian conflict, telling a joint session of the U.S. Congress March 7 that �the security of all nations and the stability of our global economy are directly affected by the Middle East conflict.�

�Your responsibility today is paramount,� he told the congressmen and senators. �Your potential to help Palestinians and Israelis find peace is unrivalled. This is because the people of the region still regard the United States as the key to peace, the one country most capable of bringing the two sides closer together, holding them accountable, and making a just settlement reality.�

He noted that all major breakthroughs in the peace process have occurred when the United States was determined to help the parties succeed, and he called on his audience to show such leadership now.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice traveled to the region in February to participate in informal discussions with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. ( See related article. )

Following those discussions, Rice met in Berlin with members of the Quartet for Middle East peace, which issued a statement reiterating the group's support for a Palestinian state that respects Israel�s right to exist, renounces violence and adheres to all previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The Quartet consists of the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and the United States. ( See related article. )

�The wellspring of regional division, the source of resentment and frustration far beyond, is the denial of justice and peace in Palestine,� Abdullah said. �I come here today as your friend to tell you that this is the core issue. And this core issue is not only producing severe consequences for our region, it is producing severe consequences for our world.�

He said the cycle of crisis has become more pronounced and more potentially devastating as people have lost faith in the peace process and added that the victims of the growing violence are not only in the Middle East. �People around the world have been the victims of terrorists and extremists, who use the grievances of this conflict to legitimize and encourage acts of violence,� he said. ( See Response to Terrorism. )

The king urged the United States to capitalize on growing international support for the peace process. Specifically, he mentioned Saudi King Abdullah�s 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, which is gaining increased acceptance among other Muslim nations. The initiative calls for full normalization of Arab-Israeli relations and collective security guarantees in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from land it has occupied since 1967 and the creation of a viable, independent Palestinian state.

Abdullah said that his father, the late King Hussein, and the late Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin addressed a similar session of Congress in 1994, calling for peace in the Middle East, but he said 13 years later, the work remains unfinished.

�It is time to create a new and different legacy, one that begins right now; one that can set a positive tone for the American and Middle East relationship; one that can restore hope to our region�s people, to your people, and to the people of this precious world,� he said. �Nothing can achieve that more effectively, nothing can assert America�s moral vision more clearly, nothing can reach and teach the world�s youth more directly, than your leadership in a peace process that delivers results not next year, not in five years, but this year.�

For information on U.S. policies, see The Middle East: A Vision for the Future.

( USINFO is produced by the Bureau of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov )
By David Shelby
USINFO Staff Writer





link :
KING ABDULLAH PLEADS FOR PEACE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 11:28 am
Bush is responsible for getting more people killed by not negotiating with Syria and Iran long before now. His stubborness is respnosible for all that unnecessary killings and maiming, because "he doesn't negotiate with terrorists."

Those 30% of Americans still supporting Bush must be proud to support such an idiot. They still haven't learned that it takes more than military might to win a war.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 11:57 am
As a military strategist, Petraeus isn't too bright. The enemy will always go where there is least resistence. 21,500 more troops in Iraq is not the solution.

Petraeus: More needed to end Iraq unrest

By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 16 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Military force alone is not sufficient to end the violence in Iraq and political talks must eventually include some militant groups now opposing the U.S.-backed government, the new commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said Thursday. "This is critical," Gen. David Petraeus said in his first news conference since taking over command last month. He noted that such political negotiations "will determine in the long run the success of this effort."

American troops have stepped up efforts to clear and secure major highways around the capital as part of the Baghdad security crackdown, which began last month. The Pentagon has pledged 17,500 combat troops for the capital.

Petraeus said "it was very likely" that additional U.S. forces will be sent to areas outside the capital where militant groups are regrouping, including the Diyala province northeast of Baghdad.

The region has become an increasingly important staging ground for groups including al-Qaida in Iraq. Meanwhile, many Sunni extremists apparently have shifted to Diyala to escape the Baghdad clampdown.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 12:17 pm
xingu wrote:

...
ican711nm wrote:
George Bush is not our principal problem. The Soros gang, its fellow travelers and sympathsizers are our principal problem. They are responsible for giving al-Qaeda the conviction that Americans are a bunch of carping cowards, unwilling and unable to persist in defending themselves for long. Al-Qaeda leaders have repeatedly said as much.


So Soros and his gang is now responsible for all of our woes. What happen to Clinton?

You decide to find a new villain?

The Clintons are among the old "villain" members of the Soros gang. The Soros gang includes old and new members. Here's two lists of the organizations that contain these members.

"The Seven Sisters" (in launching date order):
(1) MoveON.org (9/22/1998)
(2) Center for American Progress (7/7/2003)
(3) America Votes (7/15/2003)
(4) America Coming Together (7/17/2003)
(5) The Media Fund (11/5/2003)
(6) Joint Victory Capaign 2004 (11/5/2003)
(7) The Thunder Road Group LLC (early 2004)

Member Organizations of the America Votes coalition during the 2004 election cycle (in alphabetical order):
1. ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now)
2. ACT (America Coming together)
3. AFL-CIO (American Federation of Labor--Congress of Industrial Organizations)
4. AFSCME (American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees)
5. AFT (American Federation of Teachers)
6. ATLA (Association of Trial Lawyers of America)
7. Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence
8. Clean Water Action
9. Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund
10. Democracy for America
11. EMILY'S List
12. Environment 2004
13. The Human Rights Campaign
14. League of Conservation Voters
15. The edia Fund
16. The Million Mom March
17. MoveOn.org Voter Fund
18. Moving America Forward
19. Music for Aerica
20. NAACP--National Voter Fund
21. NARAL Pro-Choice America
22. National Education Association
23. National Jewish Democratic Council
24. National Treasury Employees Union
25. Partnership for America's Families
26. PFAW (People for the American Way)
27. Planned Parenthood Action Fund
28. SEIU (Service Employees International Union)
29. Sierra Club
30. USAction
31. Voices for Working Families
32. Young Voters Alliance

Also, 21st Century Democrats
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 12:23 pm
ican711nm wrote:
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 2-4, 2007. N=1,010 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.


"Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq? How about [see below]?"

3/2-4/07
Favor = %
Oppose = %
Unsure = %

"Requiring U.S. troops to come home from Iraq if Iraq's leaders fail to meet promises to reduce violence there"

77
20
3

"Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of next year"

60
39
1

"Voting to revoke the authority it granted President Bush in 2002 to use U.S. military force in Iraq"

44
52
4

"Denying the funding needed to send any additional U.S. troops to Iraq"

37
61
2


0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 02:44 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

I think that any of the candidates - Republican or Dem - would be a better leader than Bush. I think that they will actually spend some time and money on defense to minimize the chances of another attack. If we are attacked, I expect them to go after and punish the criminals who carry it out - unlike the current admin, who is 'not interested' in doing so.

Cycloptichorn

Your statements (1), (2), and (3), tabulated from your above statement and discussed by me below, are dumb.

(1) "I think that they ['any of the candidates - Republican or Dem - ']will actually spend some time and money on defense to minimize the chances of another attack."

Dumb ignorance!

The Bush administration has been spending time and money on defense to minimize the chances of another attack. The Homeland Security Administration has been spending a lot of time and money "on defense to minimize the chances of another attack." The Bush administration is significantly obstructed by the Soros gang's effort to stifle the monotoring of communications between suspected terrorist leaders and terrorists. In spite of that, America has not experienced another terrorist attack since 9/11.

(2) "If we are attacked, I expect them to go after and punish the criminals who carry it out - "

Plain dumb!

Criminal suicides are dead and are probably no longer capable of committing another terrorist act. What good will be accomplished by going after them in hell? Duh!

All 19 of the al-Qaeda terrorists that caused the 9/11 attacks died on 9/11 in the act of committing their terrorism, thereby relieving the Bush administration of having to capture and punish them.

Those planning to be suicidal terrorists must be detected, and killed or incarcerated before they commit their terrorist crimes. One good place to detect them before they commit their crimes is where they are trained and equiped (e.g., Afghanistan, Iraq). Duh!

(3) "unlike the current admin, who is 'not interested' in doing so."

Worse than dumb!

The Bush administration has captured and brought to trial several in America planning such attacks. Listen to and watch other than the Soros gang's broadcast media, and look past the first page of your newspaper. Buried in that paper somewhere, you will encounter reports about such captures. The Bush administration has also captured many outside America who were planning such attacks.

You know as well as I do that you have made these dumb statements in able2know:
(1) one cannot prove a negative;
(2) al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and 2007 mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq because we invaded Iraq;
(5) the US invasion of Iraq was illegal;
(6) the Iraqi people do not want democracy;
(7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help;
(8) go after and punish the criminals who carry [suicidal terrorism] out.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 02:45 pm
The Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership. They've said so more than once, and their actions reflect this. I can get you links if you like.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 02:56 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership. They've said so more than once, and their actions reflect this. I can get you links if you like.

Cycloptichorn

So why do they keep trying to capture or kill al-Qaeda's top leadership? ...And succeed in killing some of al-Qaeda leaders (e.g., Turabi, Zarqawi). Two more to go: Zawahiri and bin Laden.

I bet your links are to actual misquotes or narrow out of context quotes.

Do yourself a huge favor and start taking regular doses of reality. At first, you will probably experience significant pain, but eventually you will join the rational free of pain.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 02:58 pm
Quote:


I bet your links are to actual misquotes or narrow out of context quotes.


Let me ask you, before I post them - exactly what would you like to bet? Because I am more than willing to post the exact context of the questions as well, and you are 100% wrong.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 03:02 pm
Cycloptichorn, you know as well as I do that you have made these dumb statements on able2know:
(1) one cannot prove a negative;
(2) al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and 2007 mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq since we invaded Iraq;
(5) the US invasion of Iraq was illegal;
(6) the Iraqi people do not want democracy;
(7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help.
(8) go after and punish the criminals who carry [suicidal terrorism] out.
(9) the Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 04:40 pm
FACTS: 1) Bush and company connected al Qaida to Saddam before the illegal invasion of a soverign country that posed no threat to the US and 2) the UN did not approve the invasion of Iraq. 3) Osama bin Laden is still on the loose.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 04:46 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn, you know as well as I do that you have made these dumb statements on able2know:
(1) one cannot prove a negative;
(2) al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and 2007 mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq since we invaded Iraq;
(5) the US invasion of Iraq was illegal;
(6) the Iraqi people do not want democracy;
(7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help.
(8) go after and punish the criminals who carry [suicidal terrorism] out.
(9) the Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership


I'm sorry, but growing your list hasn't made it any more accurate - except for the last one and #7, which is 100% true as your own postings of polls have shown.

You have to ask yourself: what am I gaining by this? Where is this conversation going? Does anyone besides myself care any longer? I mean, you, Ican, need to ask yourself these questions.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 04:50 pm
Quote:
Military force alone is not sufficient to end the violence in Iraq and political talks must eventually include some militant groups now opposing the U.S.-backed government, the new commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said Thursday. "This is critical," Gen. David Petraeus said in his first news conference since taking over command last month. He noted that such political negotiations "will determine in the long run the success of this effort."


i don't think general petraeus could have been any clearer that
"a political solution" is required to bring same kind of order to iraq - forget "democracy" .
of course , much time and goodwill has been squandered in the years since iraq has been invaded - how much "blood , sweat and tears " (and billions of dollars ) will be required to find a solution is anyone's guess .

i'm about half-way through rory stewart's "prince of marshes" . general petreaeus was one of the u.s. military commanders working with stewart
in trying to bring some kind of stability to the marsh region of iraq . it seems that what happened was that the u.s. top-administrators(bremer and his group working out of the green zone) didn't have the faintest idea of what was going on in the provinces . general petraeus let it be known how dis-satisfied he was and it seems that shortly thereafter he was sent back to the united states .
stewart left completely disillusioned after some time . he now lives in kabul , afghanistan , where he has establised the "turquoise mountain foundation" .
he was interviewed last sunday by CCB-TV about his past experience in iraq .
one of the interesting comments was , that "patience , patience , patience" is required when negotiating in the middle-east . he explained that when he walks about a 1,000 feet from his office to another office at the end of the building , he usually encounters about 5 to 6 people .
so he has to stop every time and exchange pleasantries for about 2 to 3 minutes with each person he encounters , such as :: "how are you ? how is your health ? how is your family ? allah be praised ! is your business doing well ? allah be praised !" - of course the other person repeats much the same ; so to go those 1,000 feet usually takes him 10 - 15 minutes .
most westerners would think that's all nonsense - and the result would be that the other person would feel insulted and stop to pass on important information .

it remains to be seen if general petraeus will now be listened to by his masters in washington . i'm not holding my breath !
hbg

Quote:
In August 2003, at the age of thirty, Rory Stewart took a taxi from Jordan to Baghdad. A Farsi-speaking British diplomat who had recently completed an epic walk from Turkey to Bangladesh, he was soon appointed deputy governor of Amarah and then Nasiriyah, provinces in the remote, impoverished marsh regions of southern Iraq. He spent the next eleven months negotiating hostage releases, holding elections, and splicing together some semblance of an infrastructure for a population of millions teetering on the brink of civil war.

The Prince of the Marshes tells the story of Stewart's year. As a participant he takes us inside the occupation and beyond the Green Zone, introducing us to a colorful cast of Iraqis and revealing the complexity and fragility of a society we struggle to understand. By turns funny and harrowing, moving and incisive, it amounts to a unique portrait of heroism and the tragedy that intervention inevitably courts in the modern age.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
FACTS: 1) Bush and company connected al Qaida to Saddam before the illegal invasion of a soverign country that posed no threat to the US and 2) the UN did not approve the invasion of Iraq. 3) Osama bin Laden is still on the loose.

Laughing
Where are the links you said you could provide to show this statement of yours is true:
(9) the Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership?

Laughing
Thank you for your additional evidence of you having made this dumb statement
(5) the US invasion of Iraq was illegal;
by you making this dumb statement
<"the illegal invasion of a soverign country that posed no threat to the US">.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:09 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
FACTS: 1) Bush and company connected al Qaida to Saddam before the illegal invasion of a soverign country that posed no threat to the US and 2) the UN did not approve the invasion of Iraq. 3) Osama bin Laden is still on the loose.

ican wrote:
Where are the links you said you could provide to show this statement of yours is true:
(9) the Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership?

CLUE: I wrote "Osama bin Laden is still on the loose." As for "catching" him, Bush spent the past four years doing a half-ass job.

Thank you for your additional evidence of you having made this dumb statement
<5>
by you making this dumb statement
<"the illegal invasion of a soverign country that posed no threat to the US">.

CLUES: Iraq's air space was controlled by our airplanes. The UN inspectors were in Iraq looking for Saddam's WMDs. After the invasion, Saddam didn't have any WMDs to use as proven by the simple fact that none were found.

Where was the threat? I may be dumb, but you're a moron.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:16 pm
I parefer to rely on the UN Secretary General than ican.


Iraq war illegal, says Annan


The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

ican will never figure out why.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn, you know as well as I do that you have made these dumb statements on able2know:
(1) one cannot prove a negative;
(2) al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and 2007 mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq since we invaded Iraq;
(5) the US invasion of Iraq was illegal;
(6) the Iraqi people do not want democracy;
(7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help.
(8) go after and punish the criminals who carry [suicidal terrorism] out.
(9) the Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership


I'm sorry, but growing your list hasn't made it any more accurate - except for the last one and #7, which is 100% true as your own postings of polls have shown.
...
Cycloptichorn

Your statement (7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help is not true. I have not posted anything that shows it to be true. I'll post again my last post on the polls.

All nine of those statements of yours are untrue.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:22 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn, you know as well as I do that you have made these dumb statements on able2know:
(1) one cannot prove a negative;
(2) al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and 2007 mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq since we invaded Iraq;
(5) the US invasion of Iraq was illegal;
(6) the Iraqi people do not want democracy;
(7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help.
(8) go after and punish the criminals who carry [suicidal terrorism] out.
(9) the Bush admin isn't interested in catching Osama Bin Laden or the top AQ leadership


I'm sorry, but growing your list hasn't made it any more accurate - except for the last one and #7, which is 100% true as your own postings of polls have shown.
...
Cycloptichorn

Your statement (7) the American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help is not true. I have not posted anything that shows it to be true. I'll post again my last post on the polls.

All nine of those statements of yours are untrue.


Now, you see that the big difference between yourself and myself, is that I am perfectly willing to actually go back and look at what people have actually said, rather than just toss around allegations.

Let's look at your post here-

Quote:

"Requiring U.S. troops to come home from Iraq if Iraq's leaders fail to meet promises to reduce violence there"

77 For
20 Against
3 Undecided

"Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of next year"

60 For
39 Against
1 Undecided


You are claiming that this does not constitute evidence that the "American people want us to leave Iraq before the Iraqi people can defend themselves without our help." I don't see how you can come to this conclusion, as this is exactly the opposite of what your own polling data posted shows.

Let me clue you in on a hint: They are already missing benchmarks in Iraq, and they will not be able to defend themselves adequately by next year. You are living in some sort of fantasy world if you believe that this is true.

The American people clearly support leaving Iraq before its' security is guaranteed. You are solidly in the minority, which has steadily declined in size since day one of the invasion.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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