9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 09:45 am
revel wrote: In fact Bush said ""The same people that attacked us on September the 11th is a crowd that is now bombing people, killing innocent men, women and children, many of whom are Muslims,"


What is so obvious is that Bush is now responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and he has the gall to talk about 9-11 as if there's a connection.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 11:15 am
The horrendous causers of the deaths of "tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis" are all those who recruit, train, and equip the suicidal mass murderers of tens of thousands of Iraqis.

If we leave before the Iraq government can protect Iraqis against these horrendous causers of the deaths of "tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis," we will see countless increases in the deaths of "tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 11:40 am
revel wrote:
Ican; Saddam supported terrorist groups and sanctuary and aid to terrorist groups but there was no direct link between the former Iraqi dictator and al-Qaida. ...

Revel, please explain what you interpret the phrase "direct link" to mean.

Regardless, al-Qaeda (i.e., producers and executers of suicidal mass murder) did in fact flee to northeastern Iraq in December 2001 from Afghanistan after we invaded Afghanistan. AND al-Qaeda was growing rapidly in northeastern Iraq right up to our invasion of Iraq in March 2003. Somewhat later al-Qaeda resumed its growth in Iraq until the Surge was implemented in June 2007. Since the Surge was implemented in June 2007, al-Qaeda has declined in Iraq somewhat.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 11:47 am
Direct link means exactly that; direct link. Plus you left out the term 'operational.' This is the exact quote from the Pentagon report if it doesn't satisfy you; take it up with them.

Al Qaeda was not growing rapidly anymore than they were in other nearby countries in the area after the invasion of Afghanistan. For example; Pakistan; you know the area where bin Laden the leader of AQ who really did something to our country was last known to be located.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 12:57 pm
revel wrote:
Direct link means exactly that; direct link. Plus you left out the term 'operational.' This is the exact quote from the Pentagon report if it doesn't satisfy you; take it up with them.

...

Revel, you left out the term "operational" so I left out the term "operational".

But ok, I stand corrected. Revel, please explain what you interpret the phrase "direct operational link" to mean.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 06:25 pm
Since Bush says "we're making progress," it doesn't matter how much strain is put on our troops and their families. The petagon is a little late in their analysis.

Military tells Bush of troop strains
Behind the Pentagon's closed doors, U.S. military leaders told President Bush Wednesday they are worried about the Iraq war's mounting strain on troops and their families. But they indicated they'd go along with a brief halt in pulling out troops this summer.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 07:57 am
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
Direct link means exactly that; direct link. Plus you left out the term 'operational.' This is the exact quote from the Pentagon report if it doesn't satisfy you; take it up with them.

...

Revel, you left out the term "operational" so I left out the term "operational".

But ok, I stand corrected. Revel, please explain what you interpret the phrase "direct operational link" to mean.


Direct operational links with regards to Saddam and AQ means that he did not collaborate with AQ directly but he did have operations with some jihadist he considered to be enemies of Zionism such Hamas and he collaborated with other jihadist groups against some he considered threats to his regime. But he didn't collaborate with AQ. He simply didn't trust AQ or specifically Bin Laden enough to have an operational partnership with him based on most post reports such as the 2006 Senate report.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-09-08-iraq-report_x.htm

The report I left a link to yesterday said that Saddam mistrusted everybody but his sons and close relatives. So while I can see why he would use from time to time jihadist since they do have the same enemy; I can not see Saddam trusting any of them enough to have a sustained operational relationship enough to be able to have AQ grow in Iraq like it did in Afghanistan after the Russians left Afghanistan. Saddam would have simply been wary of those groups forming a coup against him. Sometimes he would kill people in his military for that very same reason.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 08:02 am
In any event; the news in Iraq is not good today which proves that invading Iraq did no good in stopping anything nor will it if we stay there for a 100 or 1000 years. They have to want to collaborate together for the good of their own country and until they do nothing we can will do any good. Moreover; we (US) are in no personal danger from Iraq if we did leave.

Dozens Dead in Basra Clashes;
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 09:39 am
Led by rulers blind to justice and deaf to history, arrogant and self-righteous, anxious for fame, indifferent to violence and willfully ignorant, a selfish and malleable American people, aroused by fear and steeped in obedience, sent their uniformed and armed sons and daughters into a strange and ancient land to conquer and root out its political leaders, defeat its forces, and remake that distant and foreign nation in its own image. Unfamiliar names like Mosul and Fallujah, crossed and re-crossed by the peoples of ancient civilizations for thousands of years before Americans birthed a nation and empire, became bloody headlines of mass destruction, death, desolation, and disruption.

Five years later, the shame of a nation, the invasion of a foreign Muslim land with massive injury and death brought to its people by this supposedly Christian nation, still multiplies its evil and continues the campaign of interference, domination, and suffering begun decades ago. History will record no shining victory here, but a long-running episode in which a mighty empire, like its brutal predecessors, wasted its blood and treasure in injustice, futility, and ineptitude.

We are guilty of a very great and ongoing evil. When will we not only end this very great evil but also extinguish its sources? Do we ask if we will repeat these deeds next year or five years from now? Do we even wonder what other strange and unfamiliar places and peoples we will invade or re-invade? Do we wonder what themes and stories we will then conjure up as justifications so that we may sleep the peaceful sleep of the innocent?

We have kneeled so long before our national altar that we can no longer arise and topple it. It is an idol with a huge mouth that symbolizes devouring. We worship and devour ourselves. We bow before this idol, which is a dehumanized and depersonified vision and version of ourselves. This is a very great evil.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff199.html
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:20 am
i have to wonder if the "terrorists" are in the employ of ...(fill in name here)... to keep the price of oil up ?
just a thought :wink:
hbg


Quote:
Oil hits $107 on pipeline blast

Oil prices touched $107 a barrel after one of Iraq's main export pipelines was blown up.
A company official said damage would cut Basra's exports by a third, adding to supply fears and increasing concern about stability in the region.


The rise extended Wednesday's gains of $4 a barrel after a US report showed lower-than-expected petrol stocks.

A sharp sell-off of all commodities last week took oil below $100 after investors cashed in their gains.

The price of New York light sweet crude oil rose to $107.70 after the explosion and was trading at $106.86 in late afternoon trade in Europe.

Another key measure of the oil price, London Brent crude, also rose, adding 88 cents to $104.87 during the course of the day.

Last week, the price of oil had reached a record high of $111.80.

Iraq fighting

The fighting in Basra escalated this week after a military operation was launched against militias in the city.

"We see events in Iraq as having taking a dangerous turn with the stability of the southern oil system now starting to become a potential concern," said Barclays Capital analysts in a note.

Iraq is a member of producers' cartel Opec and one of the world's biggest oil exporters.

The prospect of export problems in Iraq compounded supply fears raised on Wednesday in the US.

The US Department of Energy said that petrol stocks were falling as refiners cut production because high oil prices were squeezing their profit margins.

Dollar weakness

Traders said the weak US dollar was also supportive to oil prices, as it becomes cheaper to buy oil for non-dollar investors.

The US dollar has remained low against key currencies, including the euro, sterling and Japanese yen, which helped to support oil prices.

The greenback was virtually unchanged against the euro at $1.5795 as a series of disappointing US economic data on durable goods orders and home sales failed to lift hopes that a US economic recovery was in sight.

This sparked a wave of buying in gold, a hedge against inflation and a haven in times of financial market volatility.

Gold prices rose as high as $954.50 an ounce, a one-week high, before reversing all the day's gains to trade at $946.33

The precious metal reached a lifetime high of $1,030.80 an ounce on 17 March and many analysts were confident that it would reach this level again if the dollar remained low and oil prices stayed high.

"We are pretty bullish on gold over the medium-term," said Dan Smith, metals analyst at Standard Chartered Bank.


(IS THAT GOOD NEWS ? hbg)

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/business/7316138.stm

Published: 2008/03/27 17:09:25 GMT



source :
OIL PRICE HITS $ 107 - AGAIN !
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:56 am
"From the very beginning, the brutality, ruin and deceit of the American aggression in Iraq has been compounded by an unshakeable ignorance. This deadly cloud of unknowing has enveloped the entire chain of command, from the witless president who didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shia Islam to the troops on the ground who believed – as they were no doubt drilled to believe – that the invasion was "payback for 9/11," a righteous war of self-defense against a terrorist nation that had attacked America.

This implacable ignorance was on perfect display this week in a "feel-good" story put out by one of the Pentagon's myriad PR engines: "Operation Iraqi Freedom, the Official Website of Multi-National Force – Iraq." (Oddly enough, the official website of the "Multi-National Force" is entirely in English, and geared exclusively to American operations. Apparently, all the other vast armies in the "Multi-National Force" don't need to know what's going on in this collaborative, cooperative multi-national operation.) The press release carried the kind of culturally sensitive headline you would expect from a Western occupying force that launched a war in the heart of Islam that has killed a million Muslims: "God's Glory Abounds at Camp Victory."
--------------------------------Chris Floyd--------------
http://www.chris-floyd.com/content/view/1466/135/#comments
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:09 pm
"Our peace-loving organ of the state, a.k.a. the New York Times has come through once again. On the fifth anniversary of our glorious act of generosity towards the Iraqi people, "all the news that’s fit to print" carefully features the finer thoughts of a remarkably sorry set of warmongers and war aficionados.

From the beginning, Iraq seemed in 2002 and early 2003 from inside the Pentagon to be little more than a boutique war. By the third anniversary, it appeared to be deliciously tart entertainment for the Washington elites, subject of oohs and ahhs for the cocktail class. Has it become, just this week, a case for serious intellectual retrospection, and even debate, among the imperialistas?

Astoundingly, the moral magicians who justify our foreign policy are quite pleased with themselves. George W. Bush recently shared his perception the war in Iraq has been "good for the economy." For the elite policy makers, the finely manicured, smooth browed, and well-nourished political class, what we have here is the greatest action flick in the world, with endless sequels.

We might call it "American Chainsaw Massacre," or "Hostel: The Country." Deranged yet powerful psychopath runs amok, killing innocents and not-so-innocents alike, incorporating lots of meaningless destruction and plot twists, with an ambiguous moral lesson that dawns only faintly, and only at the end, after everyone is dead.

This motion picture, this designer occupation, this expensive excursion into the lives of others, is what the war-supporting chattering class debates. Iraq is an artificial war, expending other people’s lives, other countries’ livelihoods, other mother’s children, and blood that doesn’t seem quite real to those in the velveteen theater.

The imperialistas discuss the merits of what they have watched from afar, with an eye to medium, believability, artistic direction and creative misdirection.

This artifice of war, this deception of others and themselves, is certainly useful in evaluating any possible neoconservative legacy. But to understand America and Iraq today, we need look no further than that ancient warrior whose advice has stood the test of time.

In Sun Tzu’s Art of War, we find that "all warfare is based on deception." Given that the Iraqis, and Afghans for that matter, understand completely what is happening, how and why – to the extent that no American politician may visit either country alone, without advance warning, flak jacket, armored vehicle, military escort and air cover. Strangely enough, the only deception going on relating to the "war in Iraq" is the domestic deception of Americans themselves, by their government and its media.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski201.html
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:51 pm
We're seeing just how weak and ineffective the Iraqi Army truly is.

Quote:
Areas of Baghdad fall to militias as Iraqi Army falters in Basra

Iraq's Prime Minister was staring into the abyss today after his operation to crush militia strongholds in Basra stalled, members of his own security forces defected and district after district of his own capital fell to Shia militia gunmen.

With the threat of a civil war looming in the south, Nouri al-Maliki's police chief in Basra narrowly escaped assassination in the crucial port city, while in Baghdad, the spokesman for the Iraqi side of the US military surge was kidnapped by gunmen and his house burnt to the ground.

Saboteurs also blew up one of Iraq's two main oil pipelines from Basra, cutting at least a third of the exports from the city which provides 80 per cent of government revenue, a clear sign that the militias ?- who siphon significant sums off the oil smuggling trade ?- would not stop at mere insurrection.

In Baghdad, thick black smoke hung over the city centre tonight and gunfire echoed across the city.

The most secure area of the capital, Karrada, was placed under curfew amid fears the Mahdi Army of Hojetoleslam Moqtada al-Sadr could launch an assault on the residence of Abdelaziz al-Hakim, the head of a powerful rival Shia governing party.

While the Mahdi Army has not officially renounced its six-month ceasefire, which has been a key component in the recent security gains, on the ground its fighters were chasing police and soldiers from their positions across Baghdad.

Rockets from Sadr City slammed into the governmental Green Zone compound in the city centre, killing one person and wounding several more.

Mr al-Maliki has gambled everything on the success of Operation Saulat al-Fursan, or Charge of the Knights, to sweep illegal militias out of Basra.

It has targeted neighbourhoods where the Mahdi Army dominates, prompting intense fighting with mortars, rocket-grenades and machineguns in the narrow, fetid alleyways of Basra.

In Baghdad, the Mahdi Army took over neighbourhood after neighbourhood, some amid heavy fighting, others without firing a shot.

In New Baghdad, militiamen simply ordered the police to leave their checkpoints: the officers complied en masse and the guerrillas stepped out of the shadows to take over their checkpoints.

In Jihad, a mixed Sunni and Shia area of west Baghdad that had been one of the worst battlefields of Iraq's dirty sectarian war in 2006, Mahdi units moved in and residents started moving out to avoid the lethal crossfire that erupted.

One witness saw Iraqi Shia policemen rip off their uniform shirts and run for shelter with local Sunni neighbourhood patrols, most of them made up of former insurgents wooed by the US military into fighting al-Qaeda.

In Baghdad, thousands of people marched in demonstrations in Shia areas demanding an end to the Basra operation, burning effigies of Mr al-Maliki, whom they branded a new dictator, and carrying coffins with his image on it.

From his field headquarters inside Basra city, the Prime Minister vowed to press on with his attack, which he said was not targeting the Mahdi Army in particular but all lawless gangs. "We have come to Basra at the invitation of the civilians to do our national duty and protect them from the gangs who have terrified them and stolen the national wealth," he said. "We promise to face the criminals and gunmen and we will never back off from our promise."

Supporters of Hojetoleslam al-Sadr, the rebellious cleric who formed the sprawling, 60,000-strong militia five years ago, have accused the Prime Minister of trying to wipe out the powerful Sadrists as a political force before provincial elections in October.

Residents of Basra complained that water and electricity had been turned off in the three main areas besieged by the Iraqi Army, which has an entire division deployed for the battle. They also said that they were running low on food an unable to evacuate their wounded. Estimates of the death toll in Basra reached as high as 200, with hundreds more wounded.

"The battle is not easy without coalition support," lamented one Basra resident, who had worked as a translator for the British forces. "The police in Basra are useless and helping the Mahdi Army. The militia are hiding among the civilians. This country will never be safe, I want to leave for ever. I don't know how to get out of this hell."

One man was shot in the leg while trying to fix the rooftop water tank on his house but feared he would be taken for a militiaman if he tried to reach a hospital. Officials said that more than 200 militiamen had surrendered after the Government issued a three-day deadline to give themselves up.

While residents in Basra said that the army appeared to be making little headway against the militia bastions, a British Army spokesman based at nearby Basra airport said progress was being made.

"The Iraqi Army are rebalancing across the city, consolidating their positions, resupplying and preparing for future operations," said Major Tom Holloway. "They made considerable progress, although not total progress by any stretch of the imagination."

With fighting flaring across the Shia south, the police chief of Kut ?- where Mahdi fighters had seized large parts of the town, 110 miles southeast of Baghdad ?- said his men had killed 40 militiamen while losing four officers.

"The security forces launched an operation at around midnight to take back areas under the control of Shiite gunmen," Abdul Hanin al-Amara said.

While US and British military officials have been at pains to distance themselves from the push against the deadly militias, President Bush praised the high-risk strategy of tackling militias that a politically weak Mr al-Maliki had been forced to court in the past.

"Prime Minister Maliki's bold decision, and it was a bold decision, to go after the illegal groups in Basra shows his leadership and his commitment to enforce the law in an even-handed manner," Mr Bush said. "It also shows the progress the Iraqi security forces have made during the surge."

If the Iraqi forces fail to stamp out the powerful militias, however, and Iraq sinks into a new bout of in-fighting, Mr Bush's troops and British forces may be forced to weigh in, sparking a new round of blood-letting ahead of US elections and scuttling British plans for an early withdrawal from Iraq.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3631718.ece

I bolded the part which best represents what we've done to Iraq. Turned it into Hell.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:55 pm
I would have bolded this part, but that's just me.

Quote:
While residents in Basra said that the army appeared to be making little headway against the militia bastions, a British Army spokesman based at nearby Basra airport said progress was being made.

"The Iraqi Army are rebalancing across the city, consolidating their positions, resupplying and preparing for future operations," said Major Tom Holloway. "They made considerable progress, although not total progress by any stretch of the imagination."

With fighting flaring across the Shia south, the police chief of Kut ?- where Mahdi fighters had seized large parts of the town, 110 miles southeast of Baghdad ?- said his men had killed 40 militiamen while losing four officers.

"The security forces launched an operation at around midnight to take back areas under the control of Shiite gunmen," Abdul Hanin al-Amara said.

While US and British military officials have been at pains to distance themselves from the push against the deadly militias, President Bush praised the high-risk strategy of tackling militias that a politically weak Mr al-Maliki had been forced to court in the past.

"Prime Minister Maliki's bold decision, and it was a bold decision, to go after the illegal groups in Basra shows his leadership and his commitment to enforce the law in an even-handed manner," Mr Bush said. "It also shows the progress the Iraqi security forces have made during the surge."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:58 pm
Do you mean to tell us that they're finally making "progress" after five years of this war? What an accomplishment! They must all be praised; hallelujah! Can they tell us when violence will actually end?
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 03:04 pm
C I
Violence spread becyause of the presence of uninvited barbaric criminals.

Those rascals are playing their immoral barbaric game in a country
which is billion times better than
Osama's birth country or his bed fellows death country.
Let me hope and wish that those innocent iraq's citizen chase away these criminals
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 03:59 pm
Pentagon has a real nose for picking its arms suppliers.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/todays_must_read_304.php
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 04:50 pm
Like many Abuzzers
I had taken a stand and I stand with civil, moral courage.

We are fed up with this goody goody EngliBUSH
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 04:57 pm
revel wrote:
In any event; the news in Iraq is not good today which proves that invading Iraq did no good in stopping anything nor will it if we stay there for a 100 or 1000 years. They have to want to collaborate together for the good of their own country and until they do nothing we can will do any good. Moreover; we (US) are in no personal danger from Iraq if we did leave.

Dozens Dead in Basra Clashes;

One day's failure to stop suicidal mass murders doesn't prove:
"that invading Iraq did no good in stopping anything nor will it if we stay there for a 100 or 1000 years."

I admire your faith, but not your perspicacity, when you claim: "we (US) are in no personal danger from Iraq if we did leave."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 05:06 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
Like many Abuzzers
I had taken a stand and I stand with civil, moral courage.

We are fed up with this goody goody EngliBUSH


You are fed up, but most of the Iraqi people want us to stay until they and their government can protect themselves without our help. They do not want to experience a return to this kind of horror:

From Encyclopedia Britannica Books of the Year, as of December 31, 2002, Total Iraq Violent Deaths since January 1, 1979 = 1,229,210 (140 per day)



This horror is bad, but the preceeding is far worse:

From IBC http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ as of February 16, 2008, Total Iraq Violent Deaths since January 1, 2003 = 89,760 (48 per day).
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 03/03/2026 at 03:13:43