9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 09:39 pm
okie wrote:
And I don't suppose Hussein's defiance of all of those resolutions through the years matter either?

Oh well, forget it, but if Iraq turns out to be successful, thanks for all your help in enforcing the U.N. resolutions, Germany, France, etc. I see now that Nicolas Sarkozy seems to get it anyway.



Different thing.

Enforcing UN resolutions did (and does) matter. That's what the embargo was for. That's what the weapons inspectors did. Arguably, that's what the no-fly zones were for. And all of that quite successfully, one might argue: no WMD were found in Iraq. Not even evidence of as much as a programme. Nothing.


But the American invasion of Iraq was no matter of enforcing UN resolutions. The United States had declared to go into Iraq "with or without" a UN mandate. If necessary, in defiance of the expressed will of the UN Security Council. How that could be possibly construed as enforcing UN resolutions is beyond comprehension.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 10:36 pm
Quote:
Bush is not comparable to Napoleon at all. Napoleon conquered, while Bush simply reacted to an aggressor nation that threatened his neighbors and us, plus was a ruthless dictator over his own people. So Bush has not conquered Iraq at all, but instead has liberated the Iraqis from a brutal dictator so that they can gain freedom to govern their own country, and has removed a regional and world threat in the name of Saddam Hussein. And Bush has not done anything without the full support of a duly elected Congress.


Have you just been out to lunch these last few years or what? None of that except the last sentence has any truth to it at the time of the invasion in 2003.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 11:07 pm
Congress gave 23 "whereases" (i.e., reasons) to justify invasion of Iraq. Thirteen of those reasons were subsequently verified. Only ten of those 23 reasons--the ten that alleged WMD in Iraq--were subsequently shown to be false. The notion that because some reasons turned out to be false, all the reasons given were false, is a stupid notion.

Congress wrote:

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq
…

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 09/08/2006, wrote:

Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq

Wikipedia wrote:

Ansar-al-Islam
Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001.
...
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.

Colin Powell wrote:

Speech to UN February 5, 2003
When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp, and this camp is located in northeastern Iraq.
...

General Franks, describing the Iraq invasion he led in March 2003, wrote:

American Soldier, page 519, by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers
... a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 07:19 am
Ican, all that Ansar al-Islam stuff has been gone over so many times but here along with other assertions again:

Quote:
OCTOBER 7, 2002: Bush Misled Us Into War


Three years ago today, President Bush visited Cincinnati to deliver a major address outlining the reasons for war, just as Congress was considering whether to vote in favor of giving Bush the authorization to attack Iraq. On October 7, 2002, Bush made a number of misleading and exaggerated statements about the Iraqi threat.


Threat of Nuclear Weapons
Bush: "Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Duelfer Report: Saddam Was Not Planning to Restart Nuclear Program. "Saddam Husayn ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf war. ISG found no evidence to suggest concerted efforts to restart the program. Although Saddam clearly assigned a high value to the nuclear progress and talent that had been developed up to the 1991 war, the program ended and the intellectual capital decayed in the succeeding years." [Duelfer Report, Key Findings]

* FACT: Senate Intelligence Committee Reported That Intelligence Estimates Said Iraq Did Not Have Nuclear Weapons. The Senate Intelligence Committee reported, "After reviewing all of the intelligence provided by the Intelligence Community and additional information requested by the Committee, the Committee believes that the judgment in the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program, was not supported by the intelligence. The Committee agrees with the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) alternative view that the available intelligence ?'does not add up to a compelling case for reconstitution.'" [Senate Intelligence Committee Report, Conclusion #27]

* FACT: Bush Administration Rhetoric Was "Significant Shift" From Intelligence Estimate. "The [Senate Intelligence Committee] report said the CIA made a ?'significant shift' in its position two months after Cheney began stating publicly that Iraq had actively reconstituted its nuclear weapons program. The intelligence estimate, which echoed the administration's public claims, ?'was not supported by the intelligence' and relied on misstatements, concealment of doubts and suppression of evidence." [Washington Post, 7/10/04]

Saddam Had WMD
Bush: "[Iraq] possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons…Saddam Hussein is a homicidal dictator who is addicted to weapons of mass destruction." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Duelfer Report: Saddam Was Not Planning to Restart Nuclear Program. "Saddam Husayn ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf war. ISG found no evidence to suggest concerted efforts to restart the program. Although Saddam clearly assigned a high value to the nuclear progress and talent that had been developed up to the 1991 war, the program ended and the intellectual capital decayed in the succeeding years." [Duelfer Report, Key Findings]

* FACT: David Kay Said No WMD Stockpiles In Iraq. Weapons Inspector David Kay told the US Senate that "… it is highly unlikely that there were large stockpiles of deployed militarized chemical and biological weapons there… I think there are no large ?- were no large stockpiles of WMD." [Kay Testimony, 1/28/04]

* FACT: Duelfer Report: Iraq Had No Strategy or Plan After Sanctions. Duelfer: "The regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of W.M.D. after sanctions." [CNN, 1/12/05]

Iraqi Scientists Reconstituting Nuclear Weapons
Bush: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his ?'nuclear mujahedeen,' his nuclear holy warriors." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Scientists Were Working On Non-Nuclear Projects. Despite Bush's allegation that Hussein met often with Iraqi scientists, he "did not disclose that the known work of the scientists was largely benign. Iraq's three top gas centrifuge experts, for example, ran a copper factory, an operation to extract graphite from oil and a mechanical engineering design center at Rashidiya." [Washington Post, 8/10/03]

* FACT: Scientist Said Weapons Didn't Exist After 1991. "A scientist who headed Iraq's nuclear programme said deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had given up all weapons of mass destruction in the wake of the 1991 Gulf War. ?'There was no capability. There was no chemical or biological or any what are called weapons of mass destruction,' Jaffar Dhia Jaffar said in what BBC television called his first-ever broadcast interview. Speaking in Paris, where he now lives, Jaffar ?- who ran Saddam's nuclear programme for 25 years ?- said there was ?'no development' of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons ?'at any time after 1991.' He said he knew that for a fact ?'because I am in touch with the people concerned.'" [Agence France Press, 8/12/04]

Aluminum Tubes To Produce Weapons
Bush: "Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Senate Intelligence Report Found Aluminum Tubes Were Not Being Used To Reconstitute Nuclear Weapons. The Senate Intel Committee found, "Numerous intelligence reports provided to the Committee showed that Iraq was trying to procure high-strength aluminum tubes. The Committee believes that the information available to the Intelligence Community indicated that these tubes were intended to be used for an Iraqi conventional rocket program and not a nuclear program." [Senate Intelligence Committee Report, Conclusion #29]

* FACT: No Evidence That Iraq's Nuclear Program Was Being Reconstituted. According to a study by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, "Iraq's nuclear program had been dismantled and there was no convincing evidence of its reconstitution." [CEIP: "WMD In Iraq," 1/2004]

* FACT: Duelfer: Aluminum Tubes Not For Nuclear Weapons. Duelfer: "That is my judgment that those ?- those tubes were most likely destined for a rocket program." [Duelfer hearing, 10/7/04]

Iraq Developing UAVs
Bush: "We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical and biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs for missions targeting the United States." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Air Force Reported That It Was Not Convinced About Drones. The Wall Street Journal reported that, "In making its case for war with Saddam Hussein, the Bush administration painted a much more threatening picture of Iraqi drones than was justified, according to Air Force intelligence estimates now coming to light….The Air Force, which has expertise in designing such unmanned aerial vehicles, or UAVs, was never convinced Baghdad had developed drones capable of effectively distributing chemical and biological weapons as the White House claimed." [Wall Street Journal, 9/10/03]

* FACT: UN Chief Weapons Inspector Said No Evidence of Iraqi UAV Program Existed. The Washington Post reported, "The United Nations' chief weapons inspector has concluded there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein's government ever developed unpiloted drones capable of dispersing chemical and biological weapons agents on enemy targets." [Washington Post, 9/5/04]

Iraq/Al Qaeda Relationship
Bush: "We know that Iraq and the Al Qaida terrorist network share a common enemy: the United States of America. We know that Iraq and Al Qaida have had high-level contacts that go back a decade." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: 9-11 Commission Report: No "Collaborative Operational Relationship" Between Iraq/al Qaeda. "We have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States." [9-11 Commission Final Report, 7/22/04]

* FACT: Senate Intelligence Committee: No "Established, Formal" Relationship Between Iraq/al Qaeda. "The Senate Intelligence Committee's report said CIA analysts were reasonable in their conclusion that there was no ?'established, formal' relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda, nor proof that the two had collaborated in attacks. The committee noted that no new information had emerged since the CIA's key reports to suggest otherwise." [Los Angeles Times, 7/10/04]

Zarqawi Presence In Iraq
Bush: "Some Al Qaida leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq. These include one very senior Al Qaida leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Zarqawi Operated In Area Outside Saddam's Control. Zarqawi was widely regarded to be the "leader" of Ansar al-Islam prior to the war against Iraq. However, according to the AP, "Ansar al-Islam operated in a region of northern Iraq that was outside of Saddam's control before the war. It was bombed by U.S. warplanes during the fighting." [AP, 1/24/04]

* FACT: Zarqawi Operated Independently of Saddam. In a statement to the Senate Armed Services Committee in March 2004, "CIA Director George J. Tenet described Zarqawi's network among other groups having ?'links' to al Qaeda but with its own ?'autonomous leadership… own targets [and] they plan their own attacks.' Although Zarqawi may have cooperated with al Qaeda in the past, U.S. officials say it is increasingly clear he had been operating independently of Osama bin Laden's organization." [Washington Post, 6/16/04]


Bush Linking Iraq to 9/11
Bush: "Some citizens wonder, ?'After 11 years of living with this problem, why do we need to confront it now?' And there's a reason. We have experienced the horror of September the 11th." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Bush Distanced Himself From Connection Between Saddam and 9/11.
Bush: "This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and Al Qaida." [Bush, 6/17/04]

Bush: "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th." [Bush, 9/17/03]

Plan For War
Bush: "If we have to act, we will take every precaution that is possible. We will plan carefully." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Secret Joint Chiefs Report: Pentagon Planners Not Given Time To Plan for Reconstruction In Post-War Iraq. In August 2003, a Joint Chiefs of Staff prepared a secret report called "Operation Iraqi Freedom Strategic Lessons Learned." The report, described by the Washington Times, blamed "setbacks in Iraq on a flawed and rushed war-planning process that ?'limited the focus' for preparing for post-Saddam Hussein operations." The Washington Times noted that the Joint Chiefs report "reveals discrepancies in the planning process. It says planners were not given enough time to put together the best blueprint for what is called Phase IV?-the ongoing reconstruction of Iraq." [Washington Times, 9/3/03]

* FACT: Pentagon Ignored Early State Department Predictions Of Post-War Problems. A New York Times report found that, "A yearlong State Department study predicted many of the problems that have plagued the American-led occupation of Iraq." The study was produced by experts on Iraq from various fields, yet "several officials said that many of the findings in the $5 million study were ignored by Pentagon officials" until after the war. [New York Times, 10/19/03]

* FACT: Bush Admitted Miscalculations. George Bush admitted in an interview that "he made a ?'miscalculation of what the conditions would be' in postwar Iraq." [Washington Post, 8/31/04]

War With Iraq Link To War on Terror
Bush: "Some have argued that confronting the threat from Iraq could detract from the war against terror. To the contrary, confronting the threat posed by Iraq is crucial to winning the war on terror." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: War In Iraq Hurt War On Terror. Former Bush counterterrorism coordinator Richard Clarke believes that by going to war in Iraq, "we delivered to Al Qaeda the greatest recruitment propaganda imaginable." Clarke testified before the 9/11 commission and said that "by invading Iraq, the president of the United States has greatly undermined the war on terrorism." [Newsweek, 4/12/04; Clarke 9/11 Commission Testimony, 3/24/04]

Al Qaeda Members Trained In Bomb-Making In Iraq
Bush: "We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: 9-11 Commission Report Said Iraq-Al Qaeda Link Was False. "Although there have been suggestions of contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda regarding chemical weapons and explosive trainings, the most detailed information alleging such ties came from an Al Qaeda operative who recanted much of his original information." [9-11 Commission Report, footnote p.470]

* FACT: Bush Admin Questionable Rhetoric Cited As Facts. A Senate report prepared by the C.I.A. in September 2002 on "Iraqi Ties to Terrorism" described claims that Iraq had provided "training in poisons and gases" to al Qaeda members, but "it cautioned that the information had come from ?'sources of varying reliability.'" By contrast, "Most public statements by Mr. Bush and other administration officials on the matter described the assertions as matters of fact." [New York Times, 7/30/04]

Iraq's Long-Range Missiles
Bush: "Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles - far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations - in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work." [Bush remarks, 10/7/02]

* FACT: Inspectors Findings Disprove Bush Claims. "Inspectors have found that the Al Samoud-2 missiles can travel less than 200 miles ?- not far enough to hit the targets Bush named. Iraq has not accounted for 14 medium-range Scud missiles from the 1991 Persian Gulf War, but the administration has not presented any evidence that they still exist." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]


links at the source

That tiny little terrorist operation which operated independently of OBL and AQ in the northern part of Iraq outside of Saddam Hussien control and in the control of the US any time it wanted and passed up; was not justification for an invasion and occupation of Iraq when you consider that most of the AQ operatives from right after the fall of taliban (which is now back in operation)went on to Pakistan and other places. Nor was the fact that Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator who abused and oppressed his own people when you consider that other nations did the same at the time of the invasion. There was no need to stir up all that trouble at the UN in the first place and taking our eyes off the ball at Afghanistan and AQ and once having gone to the UN there were certainly no need to cut the inspections short just because the results were not what we wanted which turned out to be true. Moreover, the administration knew their information was faulty (links have been left in the past as well as some of the above information) and they just didn't care because they wanted to go to war.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 07:50 am
Quote:
Oh well, forget it, but if Iraq turns out to be successful, thanks for all your help in enforcing the U.N. resolutions, Germany, France, etc. I see now that Nicolas Sarkozy seems to get it anyway.


This is like someone breaking something and then putting it somewhat back together again and then telling everyone else who had nothing to do with it and in fact warned you of the consequences of your actions; "thanks for helping" in a smart elect manner for not helping.

"and all the kings horses..."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 12:11 pm
revel wrote:
Ican, all that Ansar al-Islam stuff has been gone over so many times but here along with other assertions again:

Quote:
OCTOBER 7, 2002: Bush Misled Us Into War


Three years ago today, President Bush visited Cincinnati to deliver a major address outlining the reasons for war, just as Congress was considering whether to vote in favor of giving Bush the authorization to attack Iraq. On October 7, 2002, Bush made a number of misleading and exaggerated statements about the Iraqi threat.

...

links at the source


That tiny little terrorist operation which operated independently of OBL and AQ in the northern part of Iraq outside of Saddam Hussien control and in the control of the US any time it wanted and passed up; was not justification for an invasion and occupation of Iraq when you consider that most of the AQ operatives from right after the fall of taliban (which is now back in operation)went on to Pakistan and other places. Nor was the fact that Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator who abused and oppressed his own people when you consider that other nations did the same at the time of the invasion. There was no need to stir up all that trouble at the UN in the first place and taking our eyes off the ball at Afghanistan and AQ and once having gone to the UN there were certainly no need to cut the inspections short just because the results were not what we wanted which turned out to be true. Moreover, the administration knew their information was faulty (links have been left in the past as well as some of the above information) and they just didn't care because they wanted to go to war.


May 19, 1996, the "tiny little terrorist operation" of less than 100 called al -Qaeda moved from Sudan to Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda grew rapidly into a worldwide confederation of terrorist groups. By September 11, 2001, that "tiny little terrorist operation" had grown and sent an even tiny-er group of 19 to murder almost 3,000 people.

On December 19, 2001, after our invasion of Afghanistan on October 7, 2001, some of that "tiny little terrorist operation" fled from Afghanistan to Iraq. By the time the USA invaded Iraq, March 20, 2003, that same "tiny little terrorist operation" of almost 300 had grown to a "tiny little terrorist operation" of over a thousand. After that "tiny little terrorist operation" in Iraq fled our invasion, they subsequently returned. We have not yet completed the extermination of that "tiny little terrorist operation" in Iraq. Is it because they are too tiny?

The big question is of course: How big would that "tiny little terrorist operation" in Iraq have grown by April 11, 2006, if the USA had not invaded Iraq?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 02:58 pm
Hey ican, use a little common sense.

AQ was outside of Saddam's control. It was within Bush's control. He didn't take them out. He wasn't interested in taking them out because he wanted to use them for political purposes. That small AQ group that could have been destroyed by Bush is not a justifiable reason or excuse to invade Iraq.

BTW;

Quote:
McClellan stepped down from the position in May of 2006, and has since penned a book that will finally allow him to do what he never could as press secretary: tell all.

Public Affairs, who will be publishing the book, has posted this excerpt, which gives one a helping of insight into how McClellan views his years of service:

Quote:
The most powerful leader in the world had called upon me to speak on his behalf and help restore credibility he lost amid the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So I stood at the White house briefing room podium in front of the glare of the klieg lights for the better part of two weeks and publicly exonerated two of the senior-most aides in the White House: Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.

There was one problem. It was not true.

I had unknowingly passed along false information. And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice President, the President's chief of staff, and the president himself.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/19/scott-mcclellan-grabs-a-s_n_73386.html
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 05:53 pm
xingu wrote:
Hey ican, use a little common sense.

AQ was outside of Saddam's control. It was within Bush's control. He didn't take them out. He wasn't interested in taking them out because he wanted to use them for political purposes. That small AQ group that could have been destroyed by Bush is not a justifiable reason or excuse to invade Iraq.

...


By all means, let us use some common sense.

Yes, AQ in northeastern Iraq was outside of Saddam's "control." The word control in this context meant only that northeastern Iraq was outside that territory Saddam was permitted to govern.

In 1996, that didn't prevent Saddam from invading Irbil in northeastern Iraq. So Saddam did have the power to invade northeastern Iraq whether or not it was under his control.

The USA recognized Saddam's power over that part of notheastern Iraq in which AQ was located, when it two times in 2002 and once in 2003, more than a month before it invaded Iraq, requested that Saddam extradite the leadership of AQ in northeastern Iraq. Saddam ignored all three of those requests, neither disagreeing with or agreeing to that extradition.

It's true the USA could have limited the USA's invasion to the AQ part of northeastern Iraq. However, it is likely AQ would have re-entered northeastern Iraq when the USA removed its troops from there. By removing Saddam's government and replacing it with an elected constitutional democratic government, it was expected that when the USA left Iraq, that elected government would prevent AQ from again obtaining sanctuary in Iraq.

Yes, it has been an experiment costing far more than anticipated, and it still is not clear whether that experiment will fail or succeed. But the probability of that success or failure is the real issue, and not whether Saddam possessed the power to extradite the leadership of AQ in northeastern Iraq. Saddam did have that power, but chose not to exercise it.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 06:31 pm
ican wrote:
It's true the USA could have limited the USA's invasion to the AQ part of northeastern Iraq. However, it is likely AQ would have re-entered northeastern Iraq when the USA removed its troops from there. By removing Saddam's government and replacing it with an elected constitutional democratic government, it was expected that when the USA left Iraq, that elected government would prevent AQ from again obtaining sanctuary in Iraq.



What a pile of crap. We could have bombed them into a pile of dust and if they came back we could continue to bomb them into a pile of dust. They were in the no fly zone and we flew over that territory on a daily basis, by both chopper and fighters.

Your trying to find some justification for our invasion of Iraq and there is none. This excuse you are coming up with is pathetic.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 07:11 pm
xingu wrote:
ican wrote:
It's true the USA could have limited the USA's invasion to the AQ part of northeastern Iraq. However, it is likely AQ would have re-entered northeastern Iraq when the USA removed its troops from there. By removing Saddam's government and replacing it with an elected constitutional democratic government, it was expected that when the USA left Iraq, that elected government would prevent AQ from again obtaining sanctuary in Iraq.



What a pile of crap. We could have bombed them into a pile of dust and if they came back we could continue to bomb them into a pile of dust. They were in the no fly zone and we flew over that territory on a daily basis, by both chopper and fighters.

Your trying to find some justification for our invasion of Iraq and there is none. This excuse you are coming up with is pathetic.


Clinton tried bombing them into a pile of dust in Afghanistan, but was unsuccessful. It would have been crazy for Bush to try the samething in Iraq and Afghanistan expecting a different result.

I didn't have to find "some justification" for invading Iraq. Congress did that for us. It included the same justification they found for invading Afghanistan.

Congress wrote:

Congress's Joint Resolution September 14, 2001

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
...
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


Congress wrote:

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002

Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

[11th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
...
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 12:50 pm
============================================================

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
A Month by Month, Daily Average of IBC's Count of Violent Deaths in Iraq, After April 30, 2007:

May = 3,755 / 31 = ………………... 121 per day

…………….. Surge fully operational in June ……………..

June = 2,386 / 30 = …………......… 80 per day.
July = 2,077 / 31 = …………......... 67 per day.
August = 2,084 / 31 = ……...…...... 67 per day.
September = 1,333 / 30 = ……….. 44 per day.
October = 1,962 / 31 = ……...….... 63 per day
November = 138 / 5 = ……………. 28 per day.*
{138 = 84,226 - 84,088}
December= ----? / 31 = ----? per day.**

… *Data currently available for only first 5 days of this month.
… **Data not yet available.

_____________________________________________________________________________

As of October 31, 2007, Total Iraq Violent Deaths since January 1, 2003 = 84,088
_____________________________________________________________________________

Daily Average Violent Deaths in Iraq--PRE and POST January 1, 2003:

PRE = 1/1/1979 - 12/31/2002 = 1,229,210/ 8,766 days = 140 per day;

POST = 1/1/2003 - 11/05/2007 = 84,226/1,770 days = …... 48 per day;

PRE / POST = 140/48 = 2.95.
_____________________________________________________________________________

We must win and succeed in Iraq, because we Americans will suffer significant losses of our freedoms, if we do not win and succeed in Iraq.

The USA wins and succeeds in Iraq when the daily rate of violent deaths in Iraq decreases below 30, remains less than 30, while we are removing our troops, and remains less than 30 for at least a year after we have completed our departure.


============================================================

http://www.icasualties.org
MILITARY FATALITIES IN IRAQ BY MONTH

As of November 22, 2007 = 1709 days in Iraq.

Month .... Totals ……. US ….. UK …. OCC …. DA
11-2007 ...... 33 ……….. 30……. 2 …….. 1 ……. 1.5{=33/22}
10-2007 ...... 40 ……….. 38 …... 1 …….. 1 ……. 1
9-2007 ........ 69 ……….. 65 ……. 2 …….. 2 ……. 2
8-2007 ........ 88 ……….. 84 ……. 4 …….. 0 ……. 3
7-2007 ........ 87 ……….. 78 ……. 8 …….. 1 ……. 3
6-2007 ….... 108 ………. 101 ……. 7 …….. 0 ……. 4
5-2007 ....... 131 ……… 126 ….. 3 …….. 2 ……. 4
4-2007 ....... 117 …….. 104 …… 12 …….. 1 ……. 4
3-2007 ........ 82 ……….. 81 ….… 1 ……… 0 ……. 3
2-2007 ........ 84 ……….. 81 ….… 3 ……… 1 ……. 3
1-2007 ........ 86 ……….. 83 ….… 3 ……… 0 ……. 3

...

3-2003 ….... 92 ....... 65 ….... 27 …….... 0 ……. 3 …
Total ....... 4180 …... 3874 …. 173 ..... 133 …… 2.45{=4180/1709}

US=United States
UK=United Kingdom
OCC=Other Coalition Countries
DA=Daily Average (for the month)

============================================================
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2007 06:49 am
Twin Bombings Kill at Least 26 in Iraq

Quote:
BAGHDAD (AP) -- A bomb exploded in a pet market in central Baghdad on Friday, killing at least 13 people and wounding dozens, Iraqi police said, shattering the festive atmosphere as people strolled past the animal stalls.

Hours later, a suicide car bomber struck a police checkpoint in the northern city of Mosul, killing another 13 people, including three policemen and 10 civilians, police Brig. Gen. Mohammed al-Wakaa said. The 1:30 p.m. explosion also left 10 cars charred.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2007 12:04 pm
Traitorous Commander wants America to lose

Quote:
Former Iraq Commander Backs Democrats on Pullout

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, November 22, 2007; Page A23

Retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, who commanded U.S. troops in Iraq from 2003 to 2004, is scheduled to speak on behalf of the Democratic Party this weekend in support of a House war funding bill that would require President Bush to bring the bulk of U.S. troops home from Iraq by the end of next year.

Sanchez, who has spoken out against the Bush administration's handling of the war and has assailed current war strategy as doomed to fail, plans to argue that the United States cannot win in Iraq with the military alone and that it is prudent to bring troops home to bolster national security.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/21/AR2007112102497.html?nav=rss_nation/special
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 07:42 am
Poland to withdraw its troops from Iraq in 2008

Quote:
Warsaw - Poland will withdraw all its troops from Iraq by the end of 2008, new Prime Minister Donald Tusk said in his first address to the Polish parliament on Friday.

'We will conduct this operation keeping in mind that our commitment to our ally, the United States, has been lived up to and exceeded,' he said.

'The specific logistics and date will come from consultations with our allies, including our main ally, the United States. But 2008 is the last year of the polish military mission in Iraq,' he added.

According to the new government programme of Tusk's People's Platform (PO) and its coalition partner, the Polish Peasants' Party (PSL), the country would also refrain from signing the European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights because it did not want to jeopardize the ratification of the EU Reform Treaty in Poland.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 11:30 am
Quote:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08152007/postopinion/editorials/good_news_from_iraq_editorials_.htm
August 15, 2007 -- News out of Iraq continues to be encouraging: High-profile attacks have fallen nearly 50 percent since the start of the troop surge, USA Today reported this week.
Gen. David Petraeus, commanding the war in Iraq, says hundreds of al Qaeda fighters were killed or captured in just the past month alone.
Tips about the enemy are up fourfold over the last year - to some 23,000 a month.
"Tribes and people are starting to stand up and fight back," said Brig. Gen. Mick Bednarek, deputy commander of the U.S. division north of Baghdad, in the USA Today report. "They are turning against al Qaeda."
It's a sign of the preliminary success of a number of operations now under way, as troop strength has finally reached the maximum planned by the surge.
To think that just a month ago, Democrats were trying to pull the plug on Iraq.
Maybe they feared exactly what is happening: The tide in Iraq seems to be turning in America's favor - and that spells bad news for the Dems, who've pinned their own political fates on the White House failing in the war.
Democrats aren't the only ones who have suddenly gone mum: Little by way of saber-rattling has been heard from the mullahs' motor-mouth in Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
The shifts, in rhetoric and on the ground, could portend, well . . . anything.
The enemy may be laying low, figuring they can't bear - at the moment, anyway - the high cost of additional attacks and confrontations.
Or they may be re-arming for a major offensive.
Surely they've by no means ended their violence completely, even temporarily: Yesterday, suicide bombers killed at least 175 people and wounded 200.
But Coalition forces aren't letting up, either: This week, they launched a third major campaign, Operation Phantom Strike, aimed at disrupting al Qaeda and Iranian-backed operations.
The verdict is still out on Iraq. Far-left Democrats may yet force a premature pullout.
But Americans can hope for the best. There's no reason to cut this war short.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 11:47 am
Quote:

http://current.com/items/87682501_good_news_from_iraq
Last year, I blogged here that we should forget about all the benchmarks that attempt to measure whether the situation in Iraq is improving or deteriorating. We will know, I wrote, that things are getting better if the Iraqis themselves feel it is so and the millions who fled the country begin to return. Today, the BBC reports that Iraqi authorities estimate that 1,000 people a day are now making there way back home. This is the latest in a sudden string of "good news" stories coming out of Iraq. Last week, my hometown newspaper, Newsday, ran a two-page feature that began with this: "Since the last soldiers of the 'surge' deployed last May, Baghdad has undergone a remarkable transformation. No longer do the streets empty at dusk. Liquor stores and cinemas have reopened for business. Some shops stay open until late into the evening. Children play in parks, young women stay out after dark, restaurants are filled with families, and old men sit at sidewalk cafes playing backgammon and smoking sheesha pipes." And yesterday, the New York Times reported that a sense of normalcy was returning to Baghdad. "The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February...As a result, for the first time in nearly two years, people are moving with freedom around much of this city." Most stories credit the "surge", particularly the US's alliance with local Sunni tribal leaders to get rid of Al Qaeda types in Baghdad and the Al Anbar province. We don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, especially since there are many great challenges to achieving peace in the country as a whole. But we can hope that these reports are a sign of shift toward better days for the Iraqi people. Inshallah.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 11:49 am
Quote:

http://newsblaze.com/iraqgoodnews.html
In early 2005, with the media only reporting the bad things happening in Iraq and none of the good, NewsBlaze started the "Support Our Troops" section, to show the other side of the story, with soldiers in Iraq sending stories.
Travel back in time, day by day, to see the stories about Iraqis receiving clean running water where none was before, schools opening, health improvements and local economies improving. Also stories of Sunnis and Shia'a, living tens of miles apart who had never spoken to each other, working together to improve their own security, coached and encouraged by American heroes.
There are stories of Iraqis helping the soldiers to find bombs, insurgents and weapons caches and stories of Iraqi soldiers, grateful for the opportunity to be trained how to serve their country and learning to think for themselves rather than always being told what to do and where to go, as they were under Saddam.
Support Our Troops by reading their stories and discover the truth that's been hidden for too long.
The Hire A Hero network helps Military members network and find meaningful employment.
Support Our Troops, Read Their Stories
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A U.S. Soldier re-enlisted in the Army just hours after being seriously wounded in an improvised explosive attack near Zaganiyah, Iraq, Nov. 13.
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The 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division from Fort Lewis, Wash., is in the process of expanding its area of responsibility to include all of Diyala province, Iraq.
3 days ago
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4 days ago
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National Guard and Reserve units have become a very integral part of fighting the global war on terrorism making up about one in every four units deployed at any one time.
4 days ago
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5 days ago
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6 days ago
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 12:14 pm
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/world/middleeast/20surge.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Baghdad's Weary Start to Exhale as Security Improves

Joao Silva for The New York Times
Women walk through Baghdad's Zawra Park.
...

By DAMIEN CAVE and ALISSA J. RUBIN
Published: November 20, 2007
BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 ?- Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad.
...
Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees.
"I feel happy," she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. "But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe."
Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad's tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move.
The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad's streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says.
As a result, for the first time in nearly two years, people are moving with freedom around much of this city. In more than 50 interviews across Baghdad, it became clear that while there were still no-go zones, more Iraqis now drive between Sunni and Shiite areas for work, shopping or school, a few even after dark. In the most stable neighborhoods of Baghdad, some secular women are also dressing as they wish. Wedding bands are playing in public again, and at a handful of once shuttered liquor stores customers now line up outside in a collective rebuke to religious vigilantes from the Shiite Mahdi Army.
Iraqis are clearly surprised and relieved to see commerce and movement finally increase, five months after an extra 30,000 American troops arrived in the country. But the depth and sustainability of the changes remain open to question.
By one revealing measure of security ?- whether people who fled their home have returned ?- the gains are still limited. About 20,000 Iraqis have gone back to their Baghdad homes, a fraction of the more than 4 million who fled nationwide, and the 1.4 million people in Baghdad who are still internally displaced, according to a recent Iraqi Red Crescent Society survey.
Iraqis sound uncertain about the future, but defiantly optimistic. Many Baghdad residents seem to be willing themselves to normalcy, ignoring risks and suppressing fears to reclaim their lives. Pushing past boundaries of sect and neighborhood, they said they were often pleasantly surprised and kept going; in other instances, traumatic memories or a dark look from a stranger were enough to tug them back behind closed doors.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 12:21 pm
Then of course there is the Soros Gang's "Newspeak" version of the news in Iraq ... to follow.
...
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 06:27 pm
Ican; if you think it is going so well and it is worth being there; why aren't you there yourself? Even if you are too old (no offense; many of us are) to be in the service; I am sure there is something you can do rather than to continue on day after day advocating this senseless drain of other people's lives and resources.

If you don't get your news from 'newspeak Rolling Eyes '; tell me; where do you get your news? What criterion do you use to gauge whether it is 'newspeak' or real news? If it agrees with what you think; it ain't newspeak; if it don't agree with you it is newspeak?
0 Replies
 
 

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