THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Quote:

Terrorists are no different than any other prisoners of war!

Who determines the "terrorist" are terrorist? The government is not omniscient. People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law of some kind. Someone captured and accused of terroism should be allowed to defend themselves in that court.

There are those who do not keep up with most of the news coming out of Iraq, and only listen to Bush and his henchmen to base their knowledge. They have no idea about the sectarian divide, and the broken government of Iraq. They jump from "democratic elections" to the Bush-Petraeus "making progress." They no nothing about the history of Iraq, or the infiltration of the Iraqi army by the militia and police force. They ignore the spread of terrorism around the world, and continue to believe that Bush's war on terrorism is working, and that the Iraqi government has closer relationships to Iran (one of the axis of evil) and Saudi Arabia. They are essentially "no-nothings" who would sacrifice more of or men and women to this lost war, and our treasure at 2.7 billion every week - money that is badly needed at home to fix our own problems.

cicerone imposter wrote:

There are those who do not keep up with most of the news coming out of Iraq, and only listen to Bush and his henchmen to base their knowledge. They have no idea about the sectarian divide, and the broken government of Iraq. They jump from "democratic elections" to the Bush-Petraeus "making progress." They no nothing about the history of Iraq, or the infiltration of the Iraqi army by the militia and police force. They ignore the spread of terrorism around the world, and continue to believe that Bush's war on terrorism is working, and that the Iraqi government has closer relationships to Iran (one of the axis of evil) and Saudi Arabia. They are essentially "no-nothings" who would sacrifice more of or men and women to this lost war, and our treasure at 2.7 billion every week - money that is badly needed at home to fix our own problems.

This is your usual false accusation against those with whom you disagree about the Iraq war. You repeat it so often without any real attempt to refute the arguments given by those you scorn, because they advocate staying in Iraq until we succeed, that it marks you a person who is a know nothing that has no understanding of the probable consequences of our leaving Iraq before we succeed there.

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

There are those who do not keep up with most of the news coming out of Iraq, and only listen to Bush and his henchmen to base their knowledge. They have no idea about the sectarian divide, and the broken government of Iraq. They jump from "democratic elections" to the Bush-Petraeus "making progress." They no nothing about the history of Iraq, or the infiltration of the Iraqi army by the militia and police force. They ignore the spread of terrorism around the world, and continue to believe that Bush's war on terrorism is working, and that the Iraqi government has closer relationships to Iran (one of the axis of evil) and Saudi Arabia. They are essentially "no-nothings" who would sacrifice more of or men and women to this lost war, and our treasure at 2.7 billion every week - money that is badly needed at home to fix our own problems.

This is your usual false accusation against those with whom you disagree about the Iraq war. You repeat it so often without any real attempt to refute the arguments given by those you scorn, because they advocate staying in Iraq until we succeed, that it marks you a person who is a know nothing that has no understanding of the probable consequences of our leaving Iraq before we succeed there.

ican, You are the one unable to "see" that Iraq is now a lost cause. Everything this administration did in Iraq backfired on them from WMDs to the training of of Iraqi army and police. Their government is in shambles and nowhere near any agreement - but rather splintered to such a degree there is no chance for reconciliation or progress. To succeed in Iraq is now an oxymoron; Bush and company damaged it too far and for too long. That's because they refused to listen to the expert from the very beginning until the Iraq Study Group. Bush thought he knew better, but all he's accomplished is getting more of our soldiers killed and spending more of our treasure.

Yes we broke it, but now we're putting the whole store on fire. When all the content is gone - including the owner and patrons, no insurance is going to bring it back. When everything is gone, to "succeed" is just a worthless word. Iraq is losing about 50 people every day from this work, and to talk about success will not bring them back. It only creates more animosity.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"-1996.

I say to you ... These youths [love] death as you love life.
…Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.

… Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
… On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html
Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols; Translation By JUS; Jun 09, 2004 from the Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf; 19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
… No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

… Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.

Al Qaeda's seven phase plan for world conquest.

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West
(like September 11, 2001) get the infidels (non-Moslems) to make war on
Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al
Qaedas banner. This phase is considered complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." This is the phase we are in, where al Qaeda
does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how
it's done. This phase is supposed to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused (in a terrorist sense)
Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade.
Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that
major damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian
Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will
enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military
power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (one government for
all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all
Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The
Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be
conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the
phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to
either convert to Islam, or submit (as second class citizens) to
Islamic rule. This will be completed by 2025 or thereabouts.

... the U.S., Israel and India [are] existential enemies of Islam and lists eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris."

ican: We must defeat Al Qaeda, because if we don't, they will attack the US with wave after wave of suicide bombings and other attacks, all carefully designed to get the US populace to give up trying to protect our democratic republic, and allow those in America who seek a dictatorship to institute a dictatorship (for example, Islamic Dictatorship, Soros Gang Dictatorship, Neo-Conservative Dictatorship, et cetera).


Exactly how are these terrorists coming into the US - wave after wave? You are a sick man, ican; your reality is completely absent.

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican: We must defeat Al Qaeda, because if we don't, they will attack the US with wave after wave of suicide bombings and other attacks, all carefully designed to get the US populace to give up trying to protect our democratic republic, and allow those in America who seek a dictatorship to institute a dictatorship (for example, Islamic Dictatorship, Soros Gang Dictatorship, Neo-Conservative Dictatorship, et cetera).


Exactly how are these terrorists coming into the US - wave after wave? You are a sick man, ican; your reality is completely absent.

You have a sick memory!

I already answered that question of yours in a previous post.

I'll summarize that post here.

Those not already here will fly to the western hemisphere via airliners. Then travel by land vehicles to US borders.
Then they will walk into the US.
Then they will ride by land vehicle to wherever they want to go.

In one hour of one day--9/11--19 mass murdered almost 3,000. In one month, a thousand could probably mass murder at least one-hundred thousand Americans. In one -year, ten-thousand could probably mass murder at least one-million Americans. Et cetera!

You think not? Why do you think not?

In one -year, ten-thousand could probably mass murder at least one-million Americans. Et cetera!

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican: We must defeat Al Qaeda, because if we don't, they will attack the US with wave after wave of suicide bombings and other attacks, all carefully designed to get the US populace to give up trying to protect our democratic republic, and allow those in America who seek a dictatorship to institute a dictatorship (for example, Islamic Dictatorship, Soros Gang Dictatorship, Neo-Conservative Dictatorship, et cetera).


Exactly how are these terrorists coming into the US - wave after wave? You are a sick man, ican; your reality is completely absent.

You have a sick memory!

I already answered that question of yours in a previous post.

I'll summarize that post here.

Those not already here will fly to the western hemisphere via airliners. Then travel by land vehicles to US borders.
Then they will walk into the US.
Then they will ride by land vehicle to wherever they want to go.

In one hour of one day--9/11--19 mass murdered almost 3,000. In one month, a thousand could probably mass murder at least one-hundred thousand Americans. In one -year, ten-thousand could probably mass murder at least one-million Americans. Et cetera!

You think not? Why do you think not?

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican: We must defeat Al Qaeda, because if we don't, they will attack the US with wave after wave of suicide bombings and other attacks, all carefully designed to get the US populace to give up trying to protect our democratic republic, and allow those in America who seek a dictatorship to institute a dictatorship (for example, Islamic Dictatorship, Soros Gang Dictatorship, Neo-Conservative Dictatorship, et cetera).


Exactly how are these terrorists coming into the US - wave after wave? You are a sick man, ican; your reality is completely absent.

You have a sick memory!

I already answered that question of yours in a previous post.

I'll summarize that post here.

Those not already here will fly to the western hemisphere via airliners. Then travel by land vehicles to US borders.
Then they will walk into the US.
Then they will ride by land vehicle to wherever they want to go.

In one hour of one day--9/11--19 mass murdered almost 3,000. In one month, a thousand could probably mass murder at least one-hundred thousand Americans. In one -year, ten-thousand could probably mass murder at least one-million Americans. Et cetera!

You think not? Why do you think not?

Because sneak attacks don't directly scale, dammit. How many times must you have this simple fact explained to you?

Cycloptichorn

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican: We must defeat Al Qaeda, because if we don't, they will attack the US with wave after wave of suicide bombings and other attacks, all carefully designed to get the US populace to give up trying to protect our democratic republic, and allow those in America who seek a dictatorship to institute a dictatorship (for example, Islamic Dictatorship, Soros Gang Dictatorship, Neo-Conservative Dictatorship, et cetera).


Exactly how are these terrorists coming into the US - wave after wave? You are a sick man, ican; your reality is completely absent.

You have a sick memory!

I already answered that question of yours in a previous post.

I'll summarize that post here.

Those not already here will fly to the western hemisphere via airliners. Then travel by land vehicles to US borders.
Then they will walk into the US.
Then they will ride by land vehicle to wherever they want to go.

In one hour of one day--9/11--19 mass murdered almost 3,000. In one month, a thousand could probably mass murder at least one-hundred thousand Americans. In one -year, ten-thousand could probably mass murder at least one-million Americans. Et cetera!

You think not? Why do you think not?

If it takes one woman 38 weeks to get a child, then it should take two women 19 weeks. And if you had 10 women, it would only take 26 days.

You think not? Why do you think not?

Laughing
If one terrorist can murder N civilians, then T terrorists can murder T x N civilians.

By the way,

Quote:

In one -year, ten-thousand could probably mass murder at least one-million Americans. Et cetera!

We know that the streets of America, with a unified and committed populace, not fractured by sectarian strife in the fashion of Iraq, would be an infinitely tougher place for terrorists to strike then the streets of Iraq;

We don't know any such thing. We know that domestic serial killers can continue their killing for many many killings until the police eventually discover them and arrest or kill them.

The populace can do nothing to stop them unless they are adequately armed to shoot those they believe are such killers before they kill again. However, the populace will often panic in such cases and kill the innocent with the guilty. While the police do that too, they generally do it less. Remember, the usual case is that police stop serial killers after they have mass murdered, not before. In the case of suicidal mass murderers, the suicidal mass murderers stop themselves in the act of mass murdering. The police are not deterrents of them.

yet you casually assume that they will have far more success in killing people here then they have enjoyed in Iraq. Logically, how do you come to this conclusion?

Believe me it's anything but casual. It's the result of careful analysis, not devotion to other people's platitudes. Terrorists, whether suicidal or not, are parallel and not serial murderers in that they kill many at the same time.

If they are not suicidal, terrorists strive to kill many each time they try. Furthermore, not all terrorists who plan to mass murder have to enter our country at the same time, or even within a given time period. They can enter in small groups as they can, and do significant mass murdering once they organize here, independent of any of their predecessors or successors.

Again, it is necessary to make it difficult for terrorists to enter our country in the first place. Border fences will help. Second, we must be able to monitor at least their international communications to determine their plans before not after they come here and mass murder. Third, once captured and indicted (preferrably off shore), we must be able to keep them incarcerated for as long as it takes to end their determination to mass murder. Court trials will only serve to overload what will already be overloaded police and other counter-terrorist forces, causing them to be far less effective.

Cycloptichorn