9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:21 pm
From the LA Times:

Iraqi civilian deaths climb again

War-related fatalities rose in August, the second month in a row, suggesting that the U.S. troop increase has had little effect.
By Tina Susman, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 1, 2007
BAGHDAD -- Bombings, sectarian slayings and other violence related to the war killed at least 1,773 Iraqi civilians in August, the second month in a row that civilian deaths have risen, according to government figures obtained Friday.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:23 pm
By my hasty calculation, this would seem to show that the number of civilians killed - and this is a lower boundary, according to the IBC themselves - was around 1950 per month in 2006 and is running at 2630 per month in 2007. According to this data, there has not been a significant reduction in the amount of civilian deaths this year; in fact, the opposite seems to be true.

Yet Petraeus and the WH have been trumpeting reductions in violence. When they do so, and they don't release the methodology behind doing so, and it conflicts so heavily with other, established reports, it robs them of credibility (which they were already lacking to begin with).

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:26 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The "new goal" for the Bush-Petraeus war is that if we leave too soon, the Iraqis will have a worse civil war. HUH?

THINK!
A civil war that would result in the deaths of say 7,500 per month is a worse civil war than one that is resulting in the deaths of say 2,500 per month.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:26 pm
Cyclo, It seems many Americans are angry at Petraeus for his message to congress - for essentially not responding to questions, but only articulating the positives and none of the negatives - as if Iraq isn't a basket case - both military and diplomatic. He screwed up his own credibility by smoothing over the problems and emphasizing the so-called positives.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:41 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
By my hasty calculation, this would seem to show that the number of civilians killed - and this is a lower boundary, according to the IBC themselves - was around 1950 per month in 2006 and is running at 2630 per month in 2007. According to this data, there has not been a significant reduction in the amount of civilian deaths this year; in fact, the opposite seems to be true.

Yet Petraeus and the WH have been trumpeting reductions in violence. When they do so, and they don't release the methodology behind doing so, and it conflicts so heavily with other, established reports, it robs them of credibility (which they were already lacking to begin with).

Cycloptichorn

Petraeus is talking about an alleged reduction since the surge became fully manned: June thru August. As soon as the IBC data is fully available for July and August, I shall post it. Then we'll both see whether the alleged reduction is a real reduction.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:43 pm
from ican's post :

Quote:
MONTHLY UPDATE OF THE MASS MURDER OF NON-MURDERERS IN IRAQ


are you sure that those murdered may not have been murderers at some time ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:51 pm
hamburger wrote:
from ican's post :

Quote:
MONTHLY UPDATE OF THE MASS MURDER OF NON-MURDERERS IN IRAQ


are you sure that those murdered may not have been murderers at some time ?
hbg

No!

IBC identifies those murdered: "Documented civilian deaths from violence."

You decide!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:54 pm
Quote:

". . . According to the Iraqi Ministry of Interior, 984 people were killed across Iraq in February, and 1,011 died in violence in August. No July numbers were released because the ministry said the numbers weren't clear.

But an official in the ministry who spoke anonymously because he wasn't authorized to release numbers said those numbers were heavily manipulated.

The official said 1,980 Iraqis had been killed in July and that violent deaths soared in August, to 2,890. . ."


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/19566.html

There seems to be a little disagreement on the numbers, no surprise there.

The claim that 1100 died in August is clearly ridiculous; more then 600 were killed in a single bombing attack in northern Iraq alone.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:55 pm
from ican's post :

Quote:
IBC's Count of Non-Murderers Murdered in Iraq since 1/1/2003
iraq body count as of 06/30/2007

MONTHLY UPDATE OF THE MASS MURDER OF NON-MURDERERS IN IRAQ

............................... Monthly ........... Accumulated Total since
............................... Totals .............. January 1st 2003 ...........
December 2005 ............ ------ ..................... 36,859
January 2006 ............... 1,267 .................... 38,126
February 2006 .............. 1,287 .................... 39,413
March 2006 .................. 1,538 .................... 40,951


April 2006 .................... 1,287.................... 42,238
May 2006 ..................... 1,417 .................... 43,655
June 2006 ..................... 2,089 .................... 45,744
...............................................................................
april to june 2006 total ...4,793 lives lost

July 2006 ...................... 2,336 .................... 48,080
August 2006 ................ 1,195 .................... 49,275
September 2006 .......... 1,407..................... 50,682
October 2006 .............. 2,546 ..................... 53,228
November 2006 .......... 3,894 ..................... 57,122
December 2006 .......... 3,219 ..................... 60,341
January 2007 .............. 2,557 ..................... 62,898
February 2007 ............. 2,514 ..................... 65,412
March 2007 .....…......... 2,720 .................... 68,132


April 2007 .…....…........ 2,359..........…........ 70,491
May 2007 .......…......... 3.755 ......…............ 74,246
June 2007 .......…......... 2,386 .........…......... 76,632
...........................................................................
april to june 2007 total .8,500 lives lost - an increase of 77 % !


it's really quite sad (disgusting) how we "calculate" the DEAD !
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 04:04 pm
hbg, That's exactly the point I've been trying to make; Bush and Petraeus doesn't give a shite about all the Iraqi deaths - they only say American troop casualities is down and some small towns and villages have seen less violence. That's progress? Seems like the same war from 2003.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 04:46 pm
hamburger wrote:
from ican's post :

Quote:
IBC's Count of Non-Murderers Murdered in Iraq since 1/1/2003
iraq body count as of 06/30/2007

MONTHLY UPDATE OF THE MASS MURDER OF NON-MURDERERS IN IRAQ

............................... Monthly ........... Accumulated Total since
............................... Totals .............. January 1st 2003 ...........
December 2005 ............ ------ ..................... 36,859
January 2006 ............... 1,267 .................... 38,126
February 2006 .............. 1,287 .................... 39,413
March 2006 .................. 1,538 .................... 40,951


April 2006 .................... 1,287.................... 42,238
May 2006 ..................... 1,417 .................... 43,655
June 2006 ..................... 2,089 .................... 45,744
...............................................................................
april to june 2006 total ...4,793 lives lost

July 2006 ...................... 2,336 .................... 48,080
August 2006 ................ 1,195 .................... 49,275
September 2006 .......... 1,407..................... 50,682
October 2006 .............. 2,546 ..................... 53,228
November 2006 .......... 3,894 ..................... 57,122
December 2006 .......... 3,219 ..................... 60,341
January 2007 .............. 2,557 ..................... 62,898
February 2007 ............. 2,514 ..................... 65,412
March 2007 .....…......... 2,720 .................... 68,132


April 2007 .…....…........ 2,359..........…........ 70,491
May 2007 .......…......... 3.755 ......…............ 74,246
June 2007 .......…......... 2,386 .........…......... 76,632
...........................................................................
april to june 2007 total .8,500 lives lost - an increase of 77 % !


it's really quite sad (disgusting) how we "calculate" the DEAD !
hbg

Petraeus is talking about an alleged reduction in the Iraqi violent death rate since the surge became fully operational in June 2007. As soon as the IBC data is fully available for July and August as well as June, I shall post it. Then we'll both see whether the alleged reduction is a real reduction.

Generally, from May 2006 up until the end of May 2007, there had been an increase in the monthly death rates in Iraq. The Bush administration's strategy for success in Iraq obviously was failing.

Then the Bush administration began a different strategy--the surge strategy--which was not fully operational until June 2007. Consequently, the relevant trend for that strategy starts in June 2007. We know June 2007 had fewer violent civilian deaths in Iraq than did May 2007. But we'll need several more months to properly assess what the trend actually is and probably will be. Then, of course, we must decide how to adjust our strategy to make it better.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 06:16 am
http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2007/09/10/15/Copy_of_Violence_Table_till_August_31.source.prod_affiliate.91.xls

There was a surge before and the violence went down, yet we can't keep up with the surge forever and the general is calling for a troop draw down next summer. I suspect between now and then we will see little progress. I suppose other than more of our troops dying in a lost cause; for Iraqis it would be better if we stayed. If we left, instead of slowly being ethnically cleansed and divided, it would be on a faster pace.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 07:38 am
revel, My sentiments exactly; we're just headed for more dead and wounded for a goal that's not even articulated - except it'll be a disaster if we leave. That's not a plan.

But it seems the GOP is gonna continue to support Bush the madman. They continue to play politics with the soldiers lives.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GOP support for Iraq war on shaky ground By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer
Tue Sep 11, 5:46 AM ET



WASHINGTON - Republican support for the Iraq war remained on shaky ground in Congress but wasn't lost after a four-star general recommended keeping some 130,000 U.S. troops in the country through next summer.

With Gen. David Petraeus scheduled to testify Tuesday before Senate committees heavy with 2008 presidential candidates, many rank-and-file Republicans said they still were uneasy about the lack of political progress in Iraq. But they also remained reluctant to embrace legislation ordering troops home by next spring, increasing the likelihood that Democrats will have to soften their approach if they want to pass an anti-war proposal.

"I think people recognize the surge (in U.S. troops) has made a difference, but it hasn't enabled the Iraqi government to get its act together," said Rep. Ray LaHood, R-Ill., among the nearly dozen House Republicans who went to the White House last spring to personally relay their concerns about the war to President Bush.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 08:48 am
CNN's anderson cooper reported from iraq last night .
one of his comments was somewhat like this :
"about two million iraqis have already left iraq , about another two million have resettled in other areas of iraq *** , so the violence is coming down somewhat , but it will also result in fewer iraqis living in their country and more segregation - was that what the surge was intended to achieve ? " .

***(sunnis and shiites have left previously integrated areas and moved to areas of their own religious kinfolk )

of course , these news weren't really news but simply a recounting of what has been taking place in iraq during the last two to three years :
the well-to-do and educated have left iraq and are still leaving and many others have left previously integrated areas to live in segregated areas of iraq .
i don't think that was ever anticipated when the invasion was planned .
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 09:17 am
Nothing Bush "plans" ever works out the way he intended. Nothing.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 11:48 am
Quote:
Hirsh: Rating Petraeus's Report to the Hill
Not surprisingly, Petraeus performed smoothly in his testimony to Congress. But an internal Pentagon report is expected to 'differ substantially' from his recommendations on withdrawal from Iraq, NEWSWEEK has learned.

WEB-EXCLUSIVE COMMENTARY
By Michael Hirsh
Newsweek
Updated: 3:00 p.m. PT Sept 10, 2007

Sept. 10, 2007 - Let's not mince words: David Petraeus may be the only thing standing between George W. Bush and total failure in Iraq. And it's apparent that most of the Washington power elite?-as well as the rest of the country?-understands that. All of which helps to explain the extraordinary spectacle on Capitol Hill on Monday, when Gen. Petraeus, the commander of multinational forces in Iraq, delivered a mostly positive report on Bush's "surge" in Iraq, as anguished antiwar protesters shouted and screamed imprecations from the back of the packed hearing room before being led out by security guards. (Among those arrested: Cindy Sheehan, who lost her son in Iraq and later became a leading activist against the war.)

But it is not so much Petraeus the general that Bush is depending on right now, it is Petraeus the politician. Most of the media coverage of the 54-year-old four-star officer has focused on his intellectual brilliance (top 5 percent of his class at West Point; Princeton Ph.D., counterinsurgency expert). What Bush needs out of Petraeus now, however, is his lobbying acumen, namely his ability to persuade the Democrat-controlled Congress?-in particular, the growing number of Republican war doubters there?-to give him the time he says he needs to rescue some measure of stability out of the chaos of Iraq.

Not surprisingly, Petraeus performed smoothly on the political front on Monday. In testimony he insisted was his own frank assessment and not cleared beforehand with the White House (however, it was briefed "up the chain of command," National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe told NEWSWEEK), Petraeus delivered an early Christmas present to legislators who are desperate to show their constituents that they are working toward withdrawal. Petraeus said he wants to bring home a U.S. Army combat brigade in December, and that by July 2008 he hoped to remove five more combat brigades and two Marine battalions, reducing the U.S. presence from about 168,000 now to "pre-surge levels" of about 130,000 troops.

But it's questionable whether even the smoothest-talking salesman could appease public opinion?-or Petraeus's Pentagon detractors?-at this point. NEWSWEEK has learned that a separate internal report being prepared by a Pentagon working group will "differ substantially" from Petraeus's recommendations, according to an official who is privy to the ongoing discussions but would speak about them only on condition of anonymity. An early version of the report, which is currently being drafted and is expected to be completed by the beginning of next year, will "recommend a very rapid reduction in American forces: as much as two-thirds of the existing force very quickly, while keeping the remainder there." The strategy will involve unwinding the still large U.S. presence in big forward operation bases and putting smaller teams in outposts. "There is interest at senior levels [of the Pentagon] in getting alternative views" to Petraeus, the official said. Among others, Centcom commander Admiral William Fallon is known to want to draw down faster than Petraeus.

Petraeus's draw-down recommendations have outraged critics of the war who accuse him of merely doing Bush's bidding and adjusting his recommendations to the politics of the Hill. ("General Betray Us," the leftwing group MoveOn.org called him in a series of newspaper ads on Monday.) Even some supporters of the surge effort wonder whether Petraeus isn't thinking as much about selling the war as winning it. "It depends on how this recommendation is framed," said Dan Senor, a former top official with the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq who is now working part-time as an adviser to GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney. "If it's framed as a recommendation out of a position of strength, that things are going well and therefore we can afford to reduce our troop levels, that's fine. If, however, it is interpreted as throwing a bone to Congress, in order to placate Congress at expense of our operational capacity, then that's not good."

John Arquilla, an intelligence and counterinsurgency expert at the Naval Postgraduate School, is even harsher in his assessment of Petraeus. "I think Colin Powell used dodgy information to get us into the war, and Petraeus is using dodgy information to keep us there," he said. "His political talking points are all very clear: the continued references he made to the danger of Al Qaeda in Iraq, for example, even though it represents only somewhere between 2 and 5 percent of the total insurgency. The continued references to Iran, when in fact the Iranians have had a lot to do with stability in the Shiite portion of the country. And it's not at all clear why things are a little better now. Is it because there are more troops, or is it because we're negotiating with the insurgents and have moved to small operating outposts? On any given day we don't have more than 20,000 troops operating. The glacial pace of reductions beggars the imagination."

So a great deal will depend on Petraeus's ability to sell his ideas on the Hill during exhaustive testimony this week. (After a six-hour session before a joint session of the House Armed Services Committee and Foreign Relations Committee on Monday, he and U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker are scheduled to face the Senate Armed Services Committee and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Tuesday.) On that score, as much as for his generalship, Bush could not have picked a better man than Petraeus. According to a former senior civilian official in the Coalition Provisional Authority, Petraeus is a "total performer." This reporter observed Petraeus's political skills up close while flying with him above the Iraqi city of Mosul in a Blackhawk helicopter in early 2004. Speaking through headphones over the loud whirring of the chopper engines, Petraeus pointed out to then-Iraq administrator L. Paul Bremer III how many satellite dishes had popped up on Iraqi homes during the general's tenure as commander of the 101st Airborne Division. Citing the dishes as a sign of progress, he proposed that Bremer go national with Petraeus's "Mosul's most wanted" TV show, launched to get locals to call in with insurgent tips. And Petraeus called in a large press gaggle to observe training exercises at his local Iraqi military training academy. Later, back in Baghdad, Bremer shook his head and laughed indulgently. "He loves headlines," Bremer said. "But he's very good."

Bush hasn't officially signed off on Petraeus's recommendations. "You'll hear from the president by the end of the week," says the NSC's Johndroe. But Bush is almost certain to endorse his general's campaign on the front lines of the Washington debate. Petraeus knows that whatever hopes he still has for "success" in Iraq?-a loosely defined term that even White House officials now privately acknowledge might just mean avoiding a bloodbath and the breakup of the country?-may now depend on the political will here at home as much as on the battlefield in Iraq.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20712196/site/newsweek/?from=rss


Petraeus is cooking the books; the experienced commanders at the Pentagon know this, and want out much quicker then he recommends.

I've been really surprised at how many lies Petraeus as put forward.

He holds up the success in Anbar as a success of the escalation; in fact, it has little to nothing to do with the 'surge' at all and predates it by several months. What more, it represents about 5% of the country and is not an indicator of overall progress.

Petraeus refuses to release his methodology for counting casualties, which renders his statistics useless.

He claims that success will allow us to draw down 'some forces'; naturally, these forces were scheduled to be drawn down already. Their rotations are up; it has nothing to do with successes on the field.

It's just more of the same crap. We do well in places we can go in strength, not so well when we don't have strength, and things fall apart when we leave. We don't have the troops to cover the whole place, so, eventually we will lose with this strategy. Petraeus and Bush are merely delaying making the tough decision, trying to run out the clock and turn it over to the next Dem president, who they will promptly blame for the problems caused by themselves Sad

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 11:55 am
amen
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 02:53 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

Petraeus is cooking the books; the experienced commanders at the Pentagon know this, and want out much quicker then he recommends.

I've been really surprised at how many lies Petraeus as put forward.

He holds up the success in Anbar as a success of the escalation; in fact, it has little to nothing to do with the 'surge' at all and predates it by several months. What more, it represents about 5% of the country and is not an indicator of overall progress.

Petraeus refuses to release his methodology for counting casualties, which renders his statistics useless.

He claims that success will allow us to draw down 'some forces'; naturally, these forces were scheduled to be drawn down already. Their rotations are up; it has nothing to do with successes on the field.

It's just more of the same crap. We do well in places we can go in strength, not so well when we don't have strength, and things fall apart when we leave. We don't have the troops to cover the whole place, so, eventually we will lose with this strategy. Petraeus and Bush are merely delaying making the tough decision, trying to run out the clock and turn it over to the next Dem president, who they will promptly blame for the problems caused by themselves Sad

Cycloptichorn

True enough. We do not have overall progress in Iraq. But we do have progress in Iraq, your malarkey not withstanding.

FACTS ABOUT THE MONTH OF AUGUST:

Number of multiple fatality suicide bombings:
2006 = 52
2007 = 30

Number of daily attacks by insurgents and malitias:
2006 = 160
2007 = 120

Number of prisoners being held by the U.S. and Iraq:
2006 = 27,000
2007 = 60,000

Number of of Iraqi security forces:
2006 = 298,000
2007 = 360,000


By the way, what's your source for this malarkey? You wrote:
"Petraeus refuses to release his methodology for counting casualties, which renders his statistics useless."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 02:55 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

Petraeus is cooking the books; the experienced commanders at the Pentagon know this, and want out much quicker then he recommends.

I've been really surprised at how many lies Petraeus as put forward.

He holds up the success in Anbar as a success of the escalation; in fact, it has little to nothing to do with the 'surge' at all and predates it by several months. What more, it represents about 5% of the country and is not an indicator of overall progress.

Petraeus refuses to release his methodology for counting casualties, which renders his statistics useless.

He claims that success will allow us to draw down 'some forces'; naturally, these forces were scheduled to be drawn down already. Their rotations are up; it has nothing to do with successes on the field.

It's just more of the same crap. We do well in places we can go in strength, not so well when we don't have strength, and things fall apart when we leave. We don't have the troops to cover the whole place, so, eventually we will lose with this strategy. Petraeus and Bush are merely delaying making the tough decision, trying to run out the clock and turn it over to the next Dem president, who they will promptly blame for the problems caused by themselves Sad

Cycloptichorn

True enough. We do not have overall progress in Iraq. But we do have progress in Iraq, your malarkey not withstanding.

FACTS ABOUT THE MONTH OF AUGUST:

Number of multiple fatality suicide bombings:
2006 = 52
2007 = 30

Number of daily attacks by insurgents and malitias:
2006 = 160
2007 = 120

Number of prisoners being held by the U.S. and Iraq:
2006 = 27,000
2007 = 60,000

Number of of Iraqi security forces:
2006 = 298,000
2007 = 360,000


By the way, what's your source for this malarkey? You wrote:
"Petraeus refuses to release his methodology for counting casualties, which renders his statistics useless."


Please provide attribution for your statistics.

For the answer to your question, I refer you to the testimony given by Petraeus and Crocker over the last two days; when questioned about their numbers, they refuse to supply raw data or methodology. Their numbers conflict with each and every other source I've seen, sources who DO include their raw data and methodology. This is a sure sign of manipulation.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 03:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Nothing Bush "plans" ever works out the way he intended. Nothing.

Right! Bush planned that General Tommy Franks's led troops would succeed in removing Saddam's government in about 6 months. Damn fool Bush! It took Franks less than a month and a half.
0 Replies
 
 

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