THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

According to some news articles, some frustrated Iraq war vets are suing the VA for not providing health care.

Bushco lovers should take note, because they are so ignorant about what Bush says and how he's treating the vets.

cicerone imposter wrote:

According to some news articles, some frustrated Iraq war vets are suing the VA for not providing health care.

Bushco lovers should take note, because they are so ignorant about what Bush says and how he's treating the vets.

I have not had a single problem getting the health care I need from the VA,and neither has any other vet that I know.

www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/moderate_islam_and_its_muslim.html
July 20, 2007
Moderate Islam and Its Muslim Enemies
By Stephen Schwartz

On Sunday, July 15, The Washington Post published a landmark article in its history -- admittedly inconsistent -- of legitimizing radical Islamists. Signed by staff writer Michelle Boorstein, it was titled "From Muslim Youths, a Push for Change". The reporter covered a meeting, grandly titled the National Muslim American Youth Summit, and sponsored in Washington over the weekend by the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC).

As Boorstein noted, MPAC has, of the organizations lobbying in support of Islamist ideology in the U.S., gained the most substantial and consistent access to federal and other government officials. The Post trumpeted MPAC's role as an advisor to the authorities, describing it as "having the coziest links to law enforcement and the Bush administration among the handful of major Muslim American advocacy groups."

MPAC used this inflated view of its clout to arrange meetings between participants in the "summit" and representative of the U.S. Departments of Justice, Homeland Security, and State. But while the Post text empathized with young Muslims purportedly seeking to take leadership of their community away from their elders, the article also unintentionally disclosed the extent of extremist influence present among American Muslims today

>From The Times of London
July 23, 2007
Al-Qaeda faces rebellion from the ranks
Sickened by the group's barbarity, Iraqi insurgents are giving information to coalition forces
Deborah Haynes in Doura
Fed up with being part of a group that cuts off a person's face with piano wire to teach others a lesson, dozens of low-level members of al-Qaeda in Iraq are daring to become informants for the US military in a hostile Baghdad neighbourhood.

The ground-breaking move in Doura is part of a wider trend that has started in other al-Qaeda hotspots across the country and in which Sunni insurgent groups and tribal sheikhs have stood together with the coalition against the extremist movement.

"They are turning. We are talking to people who we believe have worked for al-Qaeda in Iraq and want to reconcile and have peace," said Colonel Ricky Gibbs, commander of the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, which oversees the area.

The sewage-filled streets of Doura, a Sunni Arab enclave in south Baghdad, provide an ugly setting for what US commanders say is al-Qaeda's last stronghold in the city. The secretive group, however, appears to be losing its grip as a "surge" of US troops in the neighbourhood - part of the latest effort by President Bush to end the chaos in Iraq - has resulted in scores of fighters being killed, captured or forced to flee.

"Al-Qaeda's days are numbered and right now he is scrambling," said Lieutenant-Colonel Stephen Michael, who commands a battalion of 700 troops in Doura.

A key factor is that local people and members of al-Qaeda itself have become sickened by the violence and are starting to rebel, Lieutenant-Colonel Michael said. "The people have got to deny them sanctuary and that is exactly what is happening."

Al-Qaeda informants comprise largely members of the Doura network who found themselves either working with the group after the US-led invasion in March 2003, or signed up to earn extra cash because there were no other jobs going. Disgusted at the attacks and intimidation techniques used on friends, neighbours and even relatives, they are now increasingly looking for a way out, US officers say.

"It is only after al-Qaeda has become truly barbaric and done things like, to teach lessons to people, cut their face off with piano wire in front of their family and then murdered everybody except one child who told the tale afterwards . . . that people realise how much of a mess they are in," Lieutenant James Danly, 31, who works on military intelligence in Doura, said.

It is impossible to corroborate the claims, but he said that scores of junior al-Qaeda in Iraq members there had become informants since May, including one low-level cell leader who gave vital information after his arrest.

"He gave us dates, places and names and who did what," Lieutenant Danly said. When asked why he was being so forthcoming, the man said: "Because I am sick of it and I hate them, and I am done."

Working with insurgents - even those who claim to have switched sides - is a leap of faith for both sides. Every informant who visits Forward Operating Base Falcon, a vast military camp on the southern outskirts of Baghdad, is blindfolded when brought in and out to avoid gleaning any information about his surroundings.

The risk sometimes pays off. A recent tip-off led to the fatal shooting of Abu Kaldoun, one of three senior al-Qaeda leaders in Doura, during a US raid last week. "He was turned in by one of his own," Colonel Michael said.

Progress with making contacts and gathering actionable information is slow because al-Qaeda has persuasive methods of keeping people quiet. This month it beheaded two men in the street and pinned a note on to their corpses giving warning that anyone who cooperated with US troops would meet the same fate.

The increased presence of US forces in Doura, however, is encouraging insiders to overcome their fear and divulge what they know. Convoys of US soldiers are working the rubble-strewn streets day and night, knocking on doors, speaking to locals and following up leads on possible insurgent hideouts.

"People in al-Qaeda come to us and give us information," said Lieutenant Scott Flanigan, as he drove past a line of fruit and vegetable stalls near a shabby shopping street in Doura, where people were buying bread and other groceries.

The informants were not seeking an amnesty for crimes that they had committed. "They just do not want to be killed," Lieutenant Flanigan said.

Jordanian-born Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - who was killed in a US raid last year - established the Iraqi al-Qaeda network in 2004, but opinions differ on its compilation, size and capabilities. Some military experts believe that the group is a cell-based network of chapters who are loosely linked to an overall leader by go-between operatives.

Others, however, describe al-Qaeda in Iraq as a sort of franchise, with separate cells around the country that use the brand - made infamous by Osama bin Laden - and cultural ideology but do not work closely with each other or for one overriding leader.

Despite the uncertainties one thing seems guaranteed. A hardcore of people calling themselves al-Qaeda in Iraq remains devoted to the extremist cause and is determined to fight on whatever the cost.

Bin Laden said in a 1998 interview, "They want to skin us from our manhood." By encouraging women's liberation and the free mixing of the sexes, Iran's supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, charges, America is trying "to spread cultural values that lead to moral corruption." In this way, he said, the United States is trying to emasculate Muslim men and weaken Islamic society. Speaking at a mosque in Riyadh, the radical sheikh Fahd Rahman al-Abyan said, "The West is a society in which under-age girls know what married women do and more, a society where the woman does as she pleases even if she is married, a society in which the number of illegitimate children approaches and sometimes surpasses the number of children from permitted unions. These putrid ideas ... are being push on us in the name of women's rights."5

Years ago Sayyid Qutb wrote that no society that undermines the family can be considered civilized. Sexual depravity is the essence of jahilliya [i.e., barbarism and immorality], because it destroys the elemental unit of civilization.
...
[Tariq] Ramadan points out that even in the West, many young Muslim women "wear headscarves and give visible signs of the modesty in which they wish to be approached." In Ramadan's view those Muslims represent "a liberation movement within Islam," a movement that seeks liberation from Western feminism.6

Some Muslims believe America is conducting cultural terrorism against Islam.

D'Souza in his Book, TEAH, page 152, wrote:

Bin Laden said in a 1998 interview, "They want to skin us from our manhood." By encouraging women's liberation and the free mixing of the sexes, Iran's supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, charges, America is trying "to spread cultural values that lead to moral corruption." In this way, he said, the United States is trying to emasculate Muslim men and weaken Islamic society. Speaking at a mosque in Riyadh, the radical sheikh Fahd Rahman al-Abyan said, "The West is a society in which under-age girls know what married women do and more, a society where the woman does as she pleases even if she is married, a society in which the number of illegitimate children approaches and sometimes surpasses the number of children from permitted unions. These putrid ideas ... are being push on us in the name of women's rights."5

Years ago Sayyid Qutb wrote that no society that undermines the family can be considered civilized. Sexual depravity is the essence of jahilliya [i.e., barbarism and immorality], because it destroys the elemental unit of civilization.
...
[Tariq] Ramadan points out that even in the West, many young Muslim women "wear headscarves and give visible signs of the modesty in which they wish to be approached." In Ramadan's view those Muslims represent "a liberation movement within Islam," a movement that seeks liberation from Western feminism.6

Some Muslim's believe the only way to protect themselves against this form of American terrorism is to mass murder American non-murderers until America stops its cultural terrorism against Islam.

revel: So you are accusing those many who say they do have a problem with getting health care of being liars or what?

Nah, mm and those others think those guys complaining about the VA and suing VA are "unpatriotic Americans." They're just a bunch of weenies.

...and your experience with the VA means exactly what? Does it mean those reports about the vets not getting service is untrue? What are you trying to prove?

You're the one usually talking out of your arse; total ignorance.

...
Nothing but an attempt by him (Dinesh) and you to paint the progress we've made as a society as responsible for the rise in terrorism.

He and you conveniently discount that our actions in the Middle East have had far greater an effect on the lives of Muslims, then our media has.

Cycloptichorn

cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Nothing but an attempt by him (Dinesh) and you to paint the progress we've made as a society as responsible for the rise in terrorism.

He and you conveniently discount that our actions in the Middle East have had far greater an effect on the lives of Muslims, then our media has.

Cycloptichorn

Fundamentalist and radical Muslims alike have repeatedly said what you describe to be "the progress we've made as a society" to actually be "moral decay." For example, Sayyid Qutb argued that the main reason for the West's moral decay is that in the modern era "religious convictions are no more than a matter of antiquarian interest." I think Qutb's argument may be valid.

Your unsupported allegations about the motives of others are examples of the moral decay of your personal integrity. Furthermore, your allegations absent supporting evidence about which of our actions have had the greater effect on the lives of Muslims, are additional examples of the moral decay of your integrity.

Dinesh D'Souza provides references to the evidence supporting his allegations. You rarely supply any evidence to support your allegations. When I have asked you to supply such evidence, you have frequently responded that it is my responsibility to find such evidence, not yours. Incredible! You make an assertion and claim it's my responsibility to do the work of finding the evidence to support or refute your assertion.

Which is it? Are you a fool or a fraud?

"...nothing more than that" doesn't explain your retort of the vets who aren't receiving any services. The implication of your post is clear to most of us; you're a damn fool!

cicerone imposter wrote:

"...nothing more than that" doesn't explain your retort of the vets who aren't receiving any services. The implication of your post is clear to most of us; you're a damn fool!

You are free to think whatever you want,its no skin off my nose either way.


My comment about my experience with the VA meant exactly what I said,nothing more and nothing less.
But,are you calling me a liar because I havent had any problems with the VA?

America and Iran engaged in heated exchanges yesterday as the US ambassador to Baghdad accused Teheran of intensifying violence against its military, despite the fact the two countries have begun ground-breaking talks on Iraq.

At a bilateral meeting convened in Iraq's government headquarters, only the second direct meeting in almost three decades, ambassador Ryan Crocker clashed angrily with his Iranian counterpart, Hassan Kazemi Qomi.

Mr Crocker presented evidence of Iranian support for Iraqi militants, including training and weapons responsible for the deaths of US troops, but Mr Qomi responded that Washington's charges did not stand scrutiny.

"The two months since May have not exactly been encouraging," Mr Crocker said.

"The fact is, and we made very clear in today's talk, that over the roughly two months (since talks began) we have actually seen militia-related activities that can be attributed to Iranian support go up and not down."

Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, saw signs of apparent progress at the session.

"We have reached an agreement, for the first time, to work together on the security sub-committee for the benefit of the people of Iraq," he said.

The two countries did agree to form a security committee, with Iraq, to focus on containing Sunni insurgents. The committee would concentrate on the threat from groups such as al-Qa'eda in Iraq, officials said, but not those militia groups the US accuses Iran of funding and training.

mysteryman wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

"...nothing more than that" doesn't explain your retort of the vets who aren't receiving any services. The implication of your post is clear to most of us; you're a damn fool!

You are free to think whatever you want,its no skin off my nose either way.


My comment about my experience with the VA meant exactly what I said,nothing more and nothing less.
But,are you calling me a liar because I havent had any problems with the VA?

Then your comment is completely irrelevant to the main point about Veterans from Iraq receiving poor care. You have no complaints of your care from the military health care, that is well and good, however, there are quite a few veterans who do and that is the issue in this discussion.

revel wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

"...nothing more than that" doesn't explain your retort of the vets who aren't receiving any services. The implication of your post is clear to most of us; you're a damn fool!

You are free to think whatever you want,its no skin off my nose either way.


My comment about my experience with the VA meant exactly what I said,nothing more and nothing less.
But,are you calling me a liar because I havent had any problems with the VA?

Then your comment is completely irrelevant to the main point about Veterans from Iraq receiving poor care. You have no complaints of your care from the military health care, that is well and good, however, there are quite a few veterans who do and that is the issue in this discussion.

I was simply trying to show that not every veteran from Iraq has a problem with the VA.

Those that have had problems with the VA deserve better treatment,that I dont deny,

But not every Iraq vet has a problem with the VA.

mysteryman wrote:

revel wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

"...nothing more than that" doesn't explain your retort of the vets who aren't receiving any services. The implication of your post is clear to most of us; you're a damn fool!

You are free to think whatever you want,its no skin off my nose either way.


My comment about my experience with the VA meant exactly what I said,nothing more and nothing less.
But,are you calling me a liar because I havent had any problems with the VA?

Then your comment is completely irrelevant to the main point about Veterans from Iraq receiving poor care. You have no complaints of your care from the military health care, that is well and good, however, there are quite a few veterans who do and that is the issue in this discussion.

I was simply trying to show that not every veteran from Iraq has a problem with the VA.

Those that have had problems with the VA deserve better treatment,that I dont deny,

But not every Iraq vet has a problem with the VA.

Every American didn't die on 9/11 either.