Dem wants to make the minutemen "terrorists"

First of all,I havent run away from anything.
I'm a firefighter and we were busy last night.
Sorry to dissapoint you.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

I guess CJ ran away,instead of staying to defend her position.

I guess, CJ has some work to do.

That's because I know her personally.
How do you come to your guess, MM?

Because as soon as we started showing her where she was wrong,she went silent and hasnt responded to anything that has been posted showing her to be wrong.

Now this bill is specifically crafted to criminalize the activities of Minutemen, including the vast majority who do nothing but sit on the border, and call the Border Patrol when they see something. The hook is, of course, if even one of the Minutemen has ANY KIND of weapon at the time (sidearm, pocketknife, boxcutter or etc.), then the entire group are now "domestic terrorists", including the ones on another part of the border twenty miles away who don't even have a sharpened pencil.

okie wrote:

Green Witch wrote:

Yeah, America needs more vigilante clowns to keep us safe from the people that pick our crops, clean our toilets and mow our lawns.

In case you haven't heard, we abolished slavery with the Civil War. And we clean our own toilets and mow our own lawn. Try it sometime. Either that or pay a competitive wage to legal citizens like everybody else is expected to.

Plenty of Americans do not clean their own toilet, mow their own lawn and they certainly do not process their own food. I have done all of the above for some American at some point.

Actually Okie, Im willing to agree - partly. I assume because of this belief you do not eat at McDonalds (or any other fast food) chicken from Tyson or pork from Jimmie Dean. And of course you would never shop at Walmart - a big employer of illegals and the number one destroyer of well paying jobs in the US.

All factory farms use illegal labor and McDonald's started the problem years ago by demanding cheaply processed meat. Meat cutting was once a well paid profession until Big Agra started to bow to the demands of places like McDonalds. I agree that restoring this industry back to it's pre-factory farm days would give well paying jobs back to our citizens. Of course, the whole industry would have to be literally cleaned-up and I don't think people want to give up their cheap flesh, Personally, If I eat it I raise it or I buy it from the local guy who did.

However, on one thing I can argue from personal experience. I'm a landscaper and I know a lot of landscapers. I never use illegal labor, but I do look for carded latinos. Why? Because they are the best workers. I pay $15 per hour for someone who can dig a hole and move heavy objects, good money in my parts. I have tried to hire American men, most last about two weeks and go off to the mall to work for less money in an air conditioned big box. The Americans that last are usually the pot heads and only agree to work stoned. The latinos that have worked with me have all put in longer hours (willingly), were drug free and did a better overall job.

You say "mow the lawn" yourself. Well I don't do lawns anymore, but some of my best friends do. If you are a little old lady and/or disabled you are going to have a hard time finding someone affordable to help you around the house. Teens are too busy playing on computers to start a lawn mowing service. The lawns guys who use legal labor are twice the price of the guys who use illegal. I do what we call "estate gardening" - the reason being I can't hire a crew for less than what a millionaire can afford to pay for the job. Even when I offer a discounted rate to the elderly I always end up seeing some illegal latino clipping their hedges in the end. Lowest bidder always wins in America.

Ever pick strawberries on a commercial farm? I did and you could not pay me enough to ever do it again. How much should we pay for strawberries to make it affordable for farmers to hire Americans willing to do the job? Recently in my state they did a roundup of farm workers - 1/4 of the cabbage crop ended up rotting in the fields. Farmers could not find the population willing to go out and pick them.

Illegals are here because Americans want cheap labor. The Bush adminstration is willing to do a guest worker program because they know the Agra Biz needs them to keep their corporate machines running. Americans want cheap food and cheap servants.

A few years ago a garden pottery company in my area moved to Mexico. They claimed Americans did not want to pay the price for their products to be produced in this country with well paid labor. Either way the Mexicans (or Chinese) are going to get our jobs, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Even patrolling without a weapon should be prohibited to fanatics who call themselves minuteman and the likes.

]No, it doesn't matter what they call themselves, roger. People who
go after alleged illegals like prey to be killed, need to be stopped,
period.

The police had to be called daily to a certain housing project where the minutemen suspected illegal immigrants and demanded to see paperwork and threatened those poor people verbally, and physically. None of the minuteman groups have ever called the border patrol, they always take it up with the alleged illegals themselves.

If you drive around in any area of San Diego it isn't very hard to tell where the illegal's hang out. Most Home Depots are a great place for ICE to start their rounds. If your here in the states legally then there is no reason to hang out at the day laborer areas because you can get a job with no issue. You know this as well as I do. Have you ever lived in East County? I'd be surprised if you did.

This immigration thing is like the war on terror if we don't handle it the way the Dem's or Libs want then it is the wrong action at the wrong time. We attacked Iraq and you guys started pointing towards North Korea and other such regimes which you thought we should attack. We start making a big push on illegal aliens and you want us to go after different types of crime. If it isn't what you want then it shouldn't be done.

Illegal immigration is a bad thing, it doesn't benefit anyone but those that hire illegals and it places hardships on the communities that have to support them. How many hospitals on the border have had to close because the illegal's flooded the emergency rooms and no one was paying for their care but the tax payers and even then it wasn't enough money to keep up with the amount of care that was provided?

Do I think this is domestic terrorism? No, it is pure harassment of a minority group that has no way of defending themselves publicly.

Thomas, I don't like the concept of self-imposed minuteman patrolling our borders, and having seen some of their leaders (locally) here on TV and having read that one or two of them have allegedly ties to white supremacists, makes it all the more disturbing. The law cannot define resp. test whose a fanatic or not, allowing such minuteman formation should
be prohibited altogether for that matter.

So,you would favor denying the constitutional right to peaceably assemble just because you disagree with their position?
And you yourself said the ties were ALLEGED.
So,if its alleged that you have ties to a violent militant group does that mean that you no longer have the right to assemble PEACEFULLY?


On page 2 I've quoted a newspaper clip from last year where 2 illegal
aliens were shot in an area patrolled by minutemen. The illegals weren't
robbed of anything, which made an accusation of murderous bandits
quite unbelievable. The direct involvement of minutemen could not be
proven, however. Everyone draws their own conclusions.

But you have no proof that the minutemen or any person aligned with them shot them,and you said that.
Now,does that mean that the minutemen are guilty just because you think they are?
I am very familiar with the town of Vista,and the tri-cities in general.
There are enough violent criminals in that area that you trying to pin an assault on someone that is only guilty of disagreeing with you is pretty silly.

Last year before many migrant camps were closed, the police was on
a daily basis called to the migrant camps in a town called Vista which is north of San Diego and heavily populated by Hispanics. Local TV crews and papers have reported extensively about the altercations between so called minutemen and day-laborers.

So,someone that claims to belong to the minutemen is a member?
IF that is the logic you are using,then I am a member of an illegal immigrant family and I demand you treat me with all the rights you want illegals to have.
I want free medical care for life,I want you to learn whatever language I decide to speak,I want my kids to be educated in that language only, and I want the right to flout any laws I choose,just bewcause I disagree with them.
Is that fair?


Do I think this is domestic terrorism? No, it is pure harassment of a
minority group that has no way of defending themselves publicly.

I want free medical care for life,I want you to learn whatever language I decide to speak,I want my kids to be educated in that language only, and I want the right to flout any laws I choose,just because I disagree with them.

Quote:

I want free medical care for life,I want you to learn whatever language I decide to speak,I want my kids to be educated in that language only, and I want the right to flout any laws I choose,just because I disagree with them.

I'm pretty sure no illegal alien ever claimed any of those rights.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

I want free medical care for life,I want you to learn whatever language I decide to speak,I want my kids to be educated in that language only, and I want the right to flout any laws I choose,just because I disagree with them.

I'm pretty sure no illegal alien ever claimed any of those rights.

Cycloptichorn

Wanna bet?
Those are the demands that every school system is caving in to.
THere are school classes where only Spanish is spoken,because the kids dont speak english.

Almost EVERY hospital ER along the border is having financial difficulties because of the millions of dollars in unpaid medical bills due to illegal aliens.

Ballots are printed in Spanish,written drivers tests are printed in Spanish,schoolbooks are written in Spanish.
There are other examples,but the point is that illegals refuse to assimilate,and they want us to give everything to them.

Actually a good post, Green Witch. Do you not see the hypocrisy of raising the minimum wage, yet not wanting to give up "cheap labor" for lawn mowing, etc.? I agree it is the employers that hire illegals, sometimes to compete to win the jobs. I also agree many, if not most Mexicans are hard workers. I have seen the same phenomena that you have experienced. Many put us to shame in terms of appreciating what we have here and making the most of it.

My only point, is why not shut down illegal immigration in exchange for a very healthy legal immigration program? If we need more workers, up the legal immigration drastically to do the jobs that need to be done. I see no reason why crops need to rot in the fields. With legal immigration, nobody needs to break the law, and everybody has proper citizenship, no hiding from the law and flying under the radar screen in terms of paying taxes, social security, and all the rest. By doing this, we also get to screen out known drug dealers, criminals, and possible terrorists.

In my opinion, the best way to fight the illegal problem is not by patrolling the border with thousands of agents, but by severely penalizing employers that employ illegals, and by making sure the employers have access to a good reference, registry, or ID system to make sure of who are not citizens. Employers should not be punished for unknowingly hiring illegals, so we need to make the I.D. capability attainable and easy. We also need to patrol the border, but if we dry up the demand, we also dry up the supply. I also see no reason why an electronic fence of some kind should not be built. It is cheap compared to the problems we are suffering as it is.

Most law abiding citizens want this problem fixed. The alternative is more economic and cultural problems, resentments, and deep division over this gigantic problem. If not fixed, it will cause much larger problems in the future. I for one am more than happy to pay a bit more for some products to make everything legal. If we are too selfish that we want cheap stuff at the expense of the rule of law and our fellow man, I say we are hopeless as a society.

Quote:

Almost EVERY hospital ER along the border is having financial difficulties because of the millions of dollars in unpaid medical bills due to illegal aliens.

They may want to consider stopping treating them, then. This is not the same thing as 'demanding free health care.'

Cycloptichorn

Sure. But this doesn't have anything to do with illegal immigration per se. Can you provide evidence that illegal immigration is the cause of this?

They may want to consider stopping treating them, then. This is not the same thing as 'demanding free health care.'

Once again, we print ballots in many languages to help people that don't speak English. This doesn't have anything to do with illegal immigration at all. For example, we print ballots in vietnamese; think we have a huge problem with illegal immigrants from Vietnam? No.

You are confusing all of your anti-immigrant arguments with your anti-illegal immigrant ones. Be specific.

Remember that I posted an article when some kids weren't allowed on a bus because they spoke english and it was a non-english bus? How does that happen if people immigrate to the US and then refuse to intergrate into US culture? We end up with schools that have more then one language being taught and I don't mean as a second language either.

Baldimo wrote:

Remember that I posted an article when some kids weren't allowed on a bus because they spoke english and it was a non-english bus? How does that happen if people immigrate to the US and then refuse to intergrate into US culture? We end up with schools that have more then one language being taught and I don't mean as a second language either.

You posted that but obviously missed to read the clarifications of that ... even not on your own thread.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Baldimo wrote:

Remember that I posted an article when some kids weren't allowed on a bus because they spoke english and it was a non-english bus? How does that happen if people immigrate to the US and then refuse to intergrate into US culture? We end up with schools that have more then one language being taught and I don't mean as a second language either.

You posted that but obviously missed to read the clarifications of that ... even not on your own thread.

That is why I reworded what I wrote above. If you notice I didn't say they were kicked off of a bus, I said they weren't allowed on the bus.

From that thread the question still remains. Why in the US do we need a seprate school for non-native english speaking children? I thought this was the great melting pot.

See this is where you begin the lose the argument. Most people who are against illegal immigration are for legal immigration. We want people to come to this country who are willing to follow the rules and enter legally. We want people to live here who will blend into society not bend society to their needs. That is what we call the unmelting pot.