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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:29 pm
okie wrote:
So does that mean everyone gets a free car and a free house, plus free food and clothing from the government, oe? That is general welfare as well. I have heard these arguments many times before. People use the general welfare clause to justify anything they want it to, but that was not the intent of it.



Appealing to extremes is usually considered bad form, okie.






Also, try to pay attention (for about the 100th time on this thread):


universal health care Not Equal state run health care
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:30 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Well then, why don't you and walter lift us out of the darkness? Tell us more about your "Universal", but "not government run" health care system.


Uh?

I can't say if you're deliberately being obtuse here, george. From your posts, I was pretty sure you had quite a firm grasp on the issue. Also, I don't think you really don't understand what is meant by "universal health care."

But anyways....


georgeob1 wrote:
I understand that everyone is "required" to have some form of (presumably approved) health insurance, and that a basic policy, providing minimal service is available to all and subsidized by the government through general tax revenues. OK so far??


No.

Most people are required to have some form of health insurance. If you can demonstrate that you have a high enough income, that requirement is dropped. Then you can choose to either pay into statutory/mandatory/public health care insurance, or to pay into private health insurance, or to go without health insurance.

Essentially, there's no subsidizing happening in the insurance company part of the system.


georgeob1 wrote:
How is the insurance "requirement" enforced?


Uhm? It's mandatory. Like taxes. Employer has to pay half of it, employee has to pay other half.

In turn, you get a health insurance card:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Versichertenkarte.jpg/180px-Versichertenkarte.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/4/44/KVKarteThomas_S..jpg/180px-KVKarteThomas_S..jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/d/d0/Krankenversicherungskarte.jpg/180px-Krankenversicherungskarte.jpg

The chip just verifies your data. You use the card when you pay your physician, or at the hospital...


georgeob1 wrote:
What happens if someone declines to enroll in any program?


As half of the premium gets paid by your employer, he will very likely bugger you to let him know which insurance company you have picked. (Your employer, in turn, will get buggered by the IRS to report which health plans he's covering for his employees.)

If you're above that level, you'll get buggered by to substantiate that you're really making that much money and capable of taking care of your own health care programme.

However, if you're above the choose-your-own-health-care-programme income level, you do pretty much whatever you want to (statutory or private or no health insurance), but you'll get buggered by the IRS to substantiate that you're really making that much money and capable of taking care of your own health care programme.


georgeob1 wrote:
What are the standards for government approval of a candidate insurance program that might meet the "requirement"?


It has to cover a minimum of treatments. It's not so much the programme that gets approved as it is the company. It's relatively easy to start up a health care insurance. For example, a company could start up a health care insurance & programme for their employees - presumably getting better conditions than when their employees would have to pick a different insurance company.


georgeob1 wrote:
Are new insurers able to enter this market as they wish, or does the government control the supply?


Yes. New insurers are able to enter the market as they wish.


georgeob1 wrote:
To what extent does the government regulate the prices charged for service, either directly or through caps on payments?


No direct regulation. If the risk goes up for the pool of insured members, the prices will go up as well (which is what you'll see happening as the median age of the population goes up).

Indirect regulation, as statutory health insurance companies are Körperschaften des öffentlichen Rechts (~ public or statutory corporations).


georgeob1 wrote:
Who determines what services are available to insured citizens?


The insurance company - based on the law under which they are operating. Which means that statutory corporations, working under the Code of Social Law (Sozialgesetzbuch), have to guarantee required services, but are not limited to those.


[quote="georgeob1"]I assume the varuious insurance providers have their own stated limits.[/quote]

Yes.


[quote="georgeob1"]Are there widespread complaints about the restrictions so applied?[/quote]

More restrictions have been put into place concerning dental services or insurance payment for new glasses. This has indeed led to complaints. Some of these effects have been mitigated by charging people more money if they fail to show up for annual routine check ups e.g. at the dentist and in turn covering services if they do so.

Also, there have been cuts in what gets financed concerning elder care (like: will wheelchairs get completely paid for by the insurance company? Will hospital beds for home care get financed, or only partially covered? Etc.)

In summary, the complaints come mostly with increasing premiums due to an ageing population, but quite a bit of that has been offset by measures like a €10 quarterly fee that you have to pay out of your own pocket when you visit your physician, or the aforementioned preventative examination/bonus system.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:32 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Do use the term "health care" as a synonym for "health insurance"?


No.

McGentrix wrote:
Don't you think that things have specific names for a reason?


I do.

McGentrix wrote:
High quality health care is available in the US to not only virtually everyone, but to everyone period.


High quality emergency care.

McGentrix wrote:
Your definition we are using, right?


Sure.

Feel free to add to it.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:32 pm
Quote:
am still wondering why the woman's medical expenses SHOULD not be covered by the american health insurance system in one way or another ?


Once more ( with feeling ):

Medicare pays about 80% of the medical cost, with the remainder paid by the patient or a medigap policy. The woman has kidney problems, perhaps she has end stage renal disease. In that case, most private medigap insurance will not pay her, because of her kidney disease. But, that's OK because she's got medicare. But, medicare does not pay 100% of the total cost of her medical care.

So what's she to do?

She takes out a $50,000 home equity line of credit to pay her medical bills.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:34 pm
There is a dialysis system that can be carried out at home. Cost?
Don't know.

Covered by Medicare? Don't know.

Do know, it's far more convenient for the patient to be treated at home, than at the hospital/clinic.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:36 pm
c.i. wrote :

Quote:
I believe that good health for our society benefits everybody; what's wrong with that?


that's exactly how i feel c.i. !
if we don't have healthy individuals we do not have a healthy society - we are all spokes on the same wheel , i believe .
if the weakest spoke on the wheel breaks , the whole wheel will eventually come apart .

since i worked for a life insurance company , we had outstanding health-benefits and i didn't even have to pay for them !
when the canadian government started to bring in health-insurance (it's a step-by-step approach and still does not cover all medical expenses) and we had to pay a premium to the government , the insurance industry was , of course , up in arms and refused to pay for our government insurance . i still felt that it was important to have a more universal system for all citizens , even if it would cost me some extra money .
(i guess by american standards i might be considered loonie , i suppose ?)
hbg
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:39 pm
old europe wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Do use the term "health care" as a synonym for "health insurance"?


No.

McGentrix wrote:
Don't you think that things have specific names for a reason?


I do.

McGentrix wrote:
High quality health care is available in the US to not only virtually everyone, but to everyone period.


High quality emergency care.

McGentrix wrote:
Your definition we are using, right?


Sure.

Feel free to add to it.


No, see you are wrong here when you write "High quality emergency care." It's hardly limited to emergency care. High quality health care of all sorts is available to every single American citizen. From in-grown toenails to brain tumor removal. Not sure why you would believe otherwise.

This is why your definition fails.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:42 pm
Peritoneal dialysis can be done at home as well - while some patients like it, others prefer to do it "in the club". (Some dialysis centers here really have rather club-like organised "members".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:43 pm
Thanks, oe, for your summarising status-quo report about the German health care system.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:48 pm
McGentrix wrote:
No, see you are wrong here when you write "High quality emergency care." It's hardly limited to emergency care. High quality health care of all sorts is available to every single American citizen. From in-grown toenails to brain tumor removal. Not sure why you would believe otherwise.



Presumably, you know more about the American system than I do.


So quite recently, on this thread, we were discussing infant mortality. I've been looking up stuff on the website of the US Department of Health and Human Services.

Concerning the availability of health care for children, they have this bit here on their website:


Quote:
The availability of, and access to, quality health care directly affects the health of the population. This is especially true of those at high risk due to chronic medical conditions or low socio-economic status.

Children may receive health coverage through a number of sources, including private insurance, either employer-based or purchased directly, and public programs, such as Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). Eligibility for public programs is based on a family's income compared to the Federal poverty level. Every State has SCHIP programs that help expand coverage to children who would otherwise be uninsured. Despite the progress achieved through public programs, approximately
8.3 million children remain uninsured in the United States.



So, if high quality health care of all sorts is available to every single American citizen, how exactly do the 8.3 million children that are currently uninsured in the United States receive health care?

(Curious minds want to know.)
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:48 pm
As far as a dialysis center being club like, I can only say that to my mind, the stink of blood in the center is not "club-like".
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:49 pm
miller :

i believe your explanation re. $50,000 was as explicit and complete as possible .

i just have this strange feeling that both okie and mcg prefer NOT to look at your explanation :wink: .

i'm not quite sure as to WHY they don't want to read it - or even admitting that they read it , but disagree with it .
i do have my suspicions , though :wink: . i just hope they don't mind terribly !
hbg
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:51 pm
Doesn't McGill University have a medical school?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:51 pm
old europe wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
old europe wrote:
okie wrote:
Just where in the u.s. constitution is free health insurance stipulated, hamburger? If you can find it, please quote it.


If you strictly go by what's in the Constitution, the United States shouldn't have an Air Force or a National Aeronautics and Space Administration either.

<shrugs>

I guess it's all about priorities. If you don't let the Constitution get in the way of becoming a military superpower or putting a man on the moon, I don't see why it should stop you from getting your health care system up to the level of, uhm, Slovenia. Or Cuba.



Where does it say that we cant have an air force?


Where does it say that you can't have universal health care?


(Unlike the land and naval forces, neither one is mentioned in the Constitution.)


Up until the late 1940's or early 50's, it was called THE US ARMY AIR CORPS.
So,it was a part of the US army.
FYI,the army falls under LAND FORCES in the Constitution.

Now,please show all of us anything that could be used to mean universal health care.

And dont use the preamble.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:55 pm
old europe wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
No, see you are wrong here when you write "High quality emergency care." It's hardly limited to emergency care. High quality health care of all sorts is available to every single American citizen. From in-grown toenails to brain tumor removal. Not sure why you would believe otherwise.



Presumably, you know more about the American system than I do.


So quite recently, on this thread, we were discussing infant mortality. I've been looking up stuff on the website of the US Department of Health and Human Services.

Concerning the availability of health care for children, they have this bit here on their website:


Quote:
The availability of, and access to, quality health care directly affects the health of the population. This is especially true of those at high risk due to chronic medical conditions or low socio-economic status.

Children may receive health coverage through a number of sources, including private insurance, either employer-based or purchased directly, and public programs, such as Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). Eligibility for public programs is based on a family's income compared to the Federal poverty level. Every State has SCHIP programs that help expand coverage to children who would otherwise be uninsured. Despite the progress achieved through public programs, approximately
8.3 million children remain uninsured in the United States.



So, if high quality health care of all sorts is available to every single American citizen, how exactly do the 8.3 million children that are currently uninsured in the United States receive health care?

(Curious minds want to know.)


You are mixing health care with health insurance again.

See, you keep thinking universal health insurance = universal health care, despite your own definition.

People not using the available health care around them and near them can not be held as an example of America not having universal health care. One has to actually go to a health care facility. Once there, they can receive some of the best universal health care on the planet.

But, they have to pay for it.

That's where your definition fails.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:56 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Up until the late 1940's or early 50's, it was called THE US ARMY AIR CORPS.
So,it was a part of the US army.
FYI,the army falls under LAND FORCES in the Constitution.

Now,please show all of us anything that could be used to mean universal health care.

And dont use the preamble.



Okay.

I'll accept that the Air Force is part of the land forces mentioned in the Constitution. Frankly, it's all blue potatoes to me.


However, if you think that a universal health care system like the one Mitt Romney has introduced in Massachusetts is unconstitutional, I'd like to hear your arguments.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:57 pm
Miller wrote:
As far as a dialysis center being club like, I can only say that to my mind, the stink of blood in the center is not "club-like".


How many of those 'club like' do you know personally?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:58 pm
old europe wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Can you share with us the definition of universal health care you are using so as not have this confusion?


Sure.


universal health care: access to high quality health care for virtually all residents of a geographic or political region


This can be implemented in several ways, including mandatory or statutory health care systems, single payer systems, health care systems that allow private practitioners to provide services or health care systems that don't.


Then using this definition, show me one person in the US right now that doesnt have access to high quality health care.

I should say show me one person here in the US legally!!!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:58 pm
o.e. wrote :

Quote:
So, if high quality health care of all sorts is available to every single American citizen, how exactly do the 8.3 million children that are currently uninsured in the United States receive health care?

(Curious minds want to know.)


so you think you might receive a straight-forward answer Laughing ?

i think i have the answer - from the free dictionary :

Quote:
until hell freezes over (informal)
if you say that someone can do something until hell freezes over, you mean they will not get the result they want. They can talk until hell freezes over - they won't make me change my mind.


hbg :wink:
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2007 02:59 pm
Many of the children who are uninsured have parents who didn't know that they were eligible for "free care". Perhaps they didn't have a social worker, or an RN visiting nurse..or perhaps the kids' school didn't have a school nurse.
0 Replies
 
 

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