65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 09:42 am
@sstainba,
sstainba wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Raising taxes and cutting spending, which is exactly my recommendation...

Cycloptichorn


How about cutting spending on medicaid and medicare by disallowing abuse of the system by patients? I'd like to see that.


Do you think there's just a switch that we can throw, to turn abuse off? No. It takes money to crack down on abuses, money which the Republicans successfully got axed from the health-care bill and which they have fought against in the past.

Not to mention the fact that both Hospitals and insurance companies actively fight modernization measures that would cut down on abuse and fraud...

Cycloptichorn
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 09:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Thinking?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 10:10 am



THE LATEST ON OBAMACARE

http://boortz.com/images/2010/04/obamacare_screw_l.jpg
0 Replies
 
sstainba
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:16 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

You have no conception how insurance works. I see you feel that the American worker is a parasite.


I have a much better idea than most people, actually.
0 Replies
 
sstainba
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:31 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

sstainba wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

So, you're pissed because the new system means you'll have to help pay for others' health care?

Cycloptichorn


I, for one, am. Why should it be my responsibility to take care of everyone else - many of which refuse to take care of themselves.


Because you pay for their health care anyways - and you know it. These people don't just sit there and die when they get old and sick, they hit up the emergency rooms and overwhelm what free clinics there are. They get sick and lose their jobs and start getting disability from the government instead of being productive. You know there's no way around their healthcare costs... you just don't like to admit it, because it hurts your right-wing sense of personal pride at your own wealth and hardworking nature.


Yes... I know I pay for it already. That's my point. We pay for everything and allow people to take and take and take some more. And then, bitch at the people who actually want to keep some of what they earn. That seems pretty antithetical to the "American Dream". For what it's worth, EMTALA, in its present form needs to be killed as well. A sore throat or a cold is NOT an emergency. The hospitals should not be required to treat people with non-emergent conditions. People who skip their diabetes meds or dialysis and then show up to the ER for this "emergency" should be forced to pay for that. The "emergencies" in those cases are completely foreseeable and avoidable.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
I think the last estimate I heard was just over 50% of Americans do no pay any taxes. So yeah, I'm not terribly pleased that 40% of what I earn is stolen by parasites. And now, they want to take even more.


Rolling Eyes You are referring to income taxes. It is inaccurate to say that 50% of Americans pay no taxes. And to call these people 'parasites' is a disgusting attitude.


You're right... it's 47%. (http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm) Your opinion of the "attitude" is irrelevant. A parasite is defined as: a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others. So, like it or not, people who don't pay into the system but still collect from it ARE parasites.


Cycloptichorn wrote:

A single mother with a kid who works 40 hours a week likely pays little to no taxes. Your trash collector and the people who stock the shelves at your grocery store likely pay no taxes. You think these people are parasites? That they do nothing but leach off of you?

Typical Rich Bitching.

Cycloptichorn


My sister is a single mother with two kids and she pays taxes. The notion that because someone picks up trash means they are poor is ridiculous. I know for a fact that many of those guys make $50,000/yr or more. My father was a shop foreman/diesel mechanic for about 30 years for BFI - a large waste disposal company. He pays taxes too. He just retired. And for what it's worth, he thinks this "reform" is a bad idea too.

Rich bitching? Would you bitch if someone broke into your house and stole your **** and there was nothing you could legally do about it? That's essentially what's happening. And why do you act like people who did well for themselves aren't allowed to bitch? Newflash - poor people bitch a lot too. Why is it ok for them to bitch and not well-off people?
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:38 pm
@sstainba,
Quote:
Newflash - poor people bitch a lot too. Why is it ok for them to bitch and not well-off people?


Oh, I'd say that it's because at the end of the day, even after they pay no taxes and you pay more then you think is fair, they are still poor and have a shitty life and you are going back to your nice house full of stuff and security. So pardon me if I take their bitching slightly more seriously then yours.

A news flash right back at you - nobody gives a **** about people who make a lot of money who say they pay too much in taxes, except for other rich people. The rest of us just sort of look on you with contempt.

I think I finally have your angle figured out - you're just an ass. You begrudge your tax dollars helping others, because you'd rather have people die then have your money go to help them. You are actually proud of being selfish, equating the payment of taxes to theft from your house. I find your attitude to be sad. The prototypical Republican - one who believes that they earned EVERYTHING in their life, is blind to their own privileges, and thinks that anyone who is poor is a lazy parasite.

The best part is that at the end of the day, you have no choice but to comply with the system that I support, do you? You can argue until you are blue in the face, but you will pay your taxes just like everyone else - and go home to your cozy house and bitch about how tough your life is Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn
sstainba
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

sstainba wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Raising taxes and cutting spending, which is exactly my recommendation...

Cycloptichorn


How about cutting spending on medicaid and medicare by disallowing abuse of the system by patients? I'd like to see that.


Do you think there's just a switch that we can throw, to turn abuse off? No. It takes money to crack down on abuses, money which the Republicans successfully got axed from the health-care bill and which they have fought against in the past.

Not to mention the fact that both Hospitals and insurance companies actively fight modernization measures that would cut down on abuse and fraud...

Cycloptichorn


It doesn't take money. It takes changes in the law. An example (although, yes, it is anecdotal):

Two days ago a 31y.o. woman was admitted to a hospital floor from the ER for "headaches." She has been out of a narcotics detox program for 2 weeks at this point. While in the ED she began to "seize." I put that in quotes because she was obviously faking. He "seizure" lasted until she got about 6mg of Adavan (lorazepam) and she went to sleep. Of course, her seizures returned. Somehow her seizures included complex movements like riding a bike - which, is medically impossible for a seizure to cause. He jaw was slack as well but only until the point that the physician asked a nurse for a tongue depressor. So, the physician had no choice but to administer more benzos. The patient withdrew from the needle stick though - while seizing. Again, that's not medically possible either.

The only way to technically diagnosis a "pseudo-seizure" (fake) is with a video EEG. This particular hospital doesn't have one. The physician called another hospital that does and they accepted. Though, when they found out the patient didn't have insurance they called back and declined.

So... the situation is that a patient comes in with a completely imagined illness in order to get drugs and there is absolutely nothing the physician can do. He cannot deny her for the change he could have a complaint lodged against him or be sued. He has to let her sit there and soak up free healthcare. What a wonderful system.


Which hospitals fight modernization? What types of modernization would cut down on waste and abuse? I'd like some specific examples please.
sstainba
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:49 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Newflash - poor people bitch a lot too. Why is it ok for them to bitch and not well-off people?


Oh, I'd say that it's because at the end of the day, even after they pay no taxes and you pay more then you think is fair, they are still poor and have a shitty life and you are going back to your nice house full of stuff and security. So pardon me if I take their bitching slightly more seriously then yours.

A news flash right back at you - nobody gives a **** about people who make a lot of money who say they pay too much in taxes, except for other rich people. The rest of us just sort of look on you with contempt.

I think I finally have your angle figured out - you're just an ass. You begrudge your tax dollars helping others, because you'd rather have people die then have your money go to help them. You are actually proud of being selfish, equating the payment of taxes to theft from your house. I find your attitude to be sad. The prototypical Republican - one who believes that they earned EVERYTHING in their life, is blind to their own privileges, and thinks that anyone who is poor is a lazy parasite.

The best part is that at the end of the day, you have no choice but to comply with the system that I support, do you? You can argue until you are blue in the face, but you will pay your taxes just like everyone else - and go home to your cozy house and bitch about how tough your life is Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn


You haven't figured out a damn thing. My family doesn't have money. My father made it through the 7th grade, grew up in an orphanage and my mother never graduated high school. They did, however, work hard and give me the opportunity to go to school. I went to college, I served in the military and now I have a good job. Why the hell can't these other people do that? Many of them don't want to. It's easier to sit on their asses and collect checks from the government.

This isn't about being selfish. I have no problem helping people out. And for the record, I even give money to charities. It's about people taking some sort of responsibility for their plight. To be honest, I think the only reason I do as well as I am is because my parents made me work for things and gave me responsibilities. You're not doing people any favors by handing things out for free. That will not teach them to value or appreciate those things. It only teaches them to ask for more.

And I wouldn't say I have no choice. I'll just have to get creative. I've been mulling over the idea of starting my own business... which of course will lose money like crazy. So then I can have a ****-ton of tax write-offs too and get allllll my money back. I've also though about moving to Spain. Or maybe New Zealand where it's a little warmer.
sstainba
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:53 pm
BTW... Why is it that someone who wants to keep what they earn is an ass? Shouldn't people have a right to do so? If not, it seems like you're suggesting there's no real point in working hard... because they harder one works, the more gets taken from him and he's not even allowed to complain about it. That's brilliant.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:56 pm
@sstainba,
Quote:

So... the situation is that a patient comes in with a completely imagined illness in order to get drugs and there is absolutely nothing the physician can do. He cannot deny her for the change he could have a complaint lodged against him or be sued. He has to let her sit there and soak up free healthcare. What a wonderful system.


What a wonderful story you've recounted here! As to the veracity of it, who can say? You could be faking the entire story the same way that the patient in question was faking their medical problems. How is either the doctor OR us supposed to tell without, yaknow, examination?

You really have a very negative attitude towards a lot of people, it's as if you believe there is a layer of scum that just drags us all down and you wish they would wander off and die or something. Is that true?

Quote:
Which hospitals fight modernization? What types of modernization would cut down on waste and abuse? I'd like some specific examples please.


Electronic, open and portable medical records. Hospitals and doctors both fight these because A) they require up-front investment that they are unwilling to do, and B) it makes it much harder for them to defraud the government and insurance companies. See this article:

Quote:
Five Ways Health IT Leaders Can Fight Medicare Fraud
Gienna Shaw, for HealthLeaders Media, March 5, 2010

Fair warning to health IT professionals: Harry Markopolos, the man who infamously warned the government that Bernie Madoff was up to something fishy, is setting his sights on Medicare fraud. And the first place he'll look for evidence is in your system's e-mails, documentation, and databases.

When Markopolos, who now works full-time investigating fraud, looks into a case, he always starts with the IT department. What does he look for? Bills submitted to Medicare by dead patients or from dead doctors, up-coding or billing for procedures that were not performed, and other fraudulent billing practices. He'll check your books for evidence of kickbacks, slush funds, and sudden inexplicable increases in revenue.

In a keynote session at the HIMSS conference in Atlanta Thursday, neurosurgeon and CNN medical expert Sanjay Gupta, MD, interviewed Markopolos about ferreting out fraud and waste in the healthcare system.

The government will increase investigation and enforcement, Markopolos said. And if they find evidence of fraud, it will be the IT professional's "worst nightmare," he says.

They'll start by shutting down your server farms and taking every piece of data they can find. Worse, they might let you think they overlooked some data, just to see if you'll produce it later upon request.

The cost of fraud

Estimates of the cost of Medicaid fraud range from $40 billion to $80 billion a year. The truth, said Gupta, is probably somewhere in between. "Fraud is everywhere, for sure," he said. And it affects "every taxpaying citizen of the United States."

It's "very common" for Medicare to get fraudulent claims from criminals posing as dead doctors, Markopolos said. Another problem"claims for an illness that does not fit with the patient's gender, such as a prostate exam for a woman.

"That's a problem," he said. (Or, suggested Gupta, men coming in for pregnancy treatment. "That's a bigger problem," Markopolos quipped.)

While Wall Street fraud robs investors of their money, Medicare fraud endangers lives and steals taxpayer dollars, Markopolos said. When a large healthcare organization is making money for illegitimate reimbursement claims, it harms other organizations that are playing by the rules.

"Medicare fraud is so pervasive, said Markopolos. "The risks of getting caught are so low and the return is so high."

The role of EMR

Electronic medical records can help identify fraud and reduce waste, Markopolos said. As systems gather and store more and more data, it will be easier to identify trends and outliers.

On the other hand, the lack of paper means there's one less trail to follow.

And EMRs themselves can be a source of fraud. For example, pharmaceutical companies can illegally pay for a high ranking on lists of treatment options. Markopolos says smaller practices, in particular, are susceptible if they use a vendor's pre-loaded formularies. Practices should create their own lists of medications, he said.

What to do?

Markopolos wants IT and other healthcare leaders to join him in the hunt for fraud. There are five ways they can help, he said.

1. Get educated. It's the first thing that IT and other healthcare professionals must do, Markopolos said. One way to do that is to get involved in professional organizations that have codes of conduct that members must follow.

2. Look for trends and changes in data. If a source of revenue jumps from 3% to 6% with no obvious reason, IT leaders should speak up. You can also compare data with other organizations in your area.

3. Beware of vendors bearing gifts. Gifts from pharmaceutical or medical device makers are "low-hanging fruit" for fraud investigators, Markopolos said. Even if an organization chooses a device because it really does best suit its needs, it is still fraud to receive any form of compensation from the maker"and can lead to jail time. "If vendors are sending you money, that's a big problem," Markopolos said. "You don't get paid enough to put on an orange jump suit." Consider following the lead of organizations that have banned all gifts from representatives and companies, he added

4. Do some profiling. Those with a propensity toward fraud tend to have a sense of entitlement, especially among doctors who feel they should be making more money. They rationalize their behavior, Markopolos said.

5. Blow the whistle. If you do see fraud, speak up"even if you were involved. Why? The government tends to treat whistleblowers well, protecting their identity and giving them deals in which they can avoid prosecution. The government is looking to identify higher-ups. To blow the whistle, go to the government, the press, or call an anonymous hotline. But don't go to your organization's lawyers, he said. Or, for that matter, anyone in the C-Suite. Rather, work with your chief compliance officer if you suspect fraud.

What's next?

The government will spend more money and get more aggressive about investigation and enforcement if the healthcare industry can't get fraud under control on its own, Markopolos said. "That's the future."

One tool the government might use? Undercover patients.

Undercover work has been "a proven law-enforcement tool," Markopolos said. And it could be coming to a hospital or physician practice near you. Patients who are well will visit doctors to see if they get treatments and procedures they don't need, or if the doctors bill for work they didn't do. Hearing aids, tie clips, or pens equipped with audio and video will collect evidence that's hard to dispute.

"It's probably the wave of the future," Markopolos said.
Gienna Shaw is a senior technology editor with HealthLeaders magazine. She can be reached at [email protected].


http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/print/TEC-247575/Five-Ways-Health-IT-Leaders-Can-Fight-Medicare-Fraud

You will note that the primary frauds are not patients who come in for fake illnesses, but Hospitals and Healthcare firms who present fake bills to Medicare.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 01:00 pm
@sstainba,
Quote:
And I wouldn't say I have no choice. I'll just have to get creative. I've been mulling over the idea of starting my own business... which of course will lose money like crazy. So then I can have a ****-ton of tax write-offs too and get allllll my money back. I've also though about moving to Spain. Or maybe New Zealand where it's a little warmer.


Laughing Go for either option. You Republicans are so full of hot air.

Create a business to lose a ton of money so you can save a little on taxes! That'll show 'em!

Threaten to move to some other country! That's my favorite one. None of you actually have the balls to up and do it. Not only that, there is the little problem that America is the most fiscally conservative country in the world in many ways - you'd be hard-pressed to find a place to move to that will give you relief from the things you bitch about here. In Spain and New Zealand both, you will be paying for the health care of others through your taxes. Not much of a solution to your problem.

Quote:
BTW... Why is it that someone who wants to keep what they earn is an ass? Shouldn't people have a right to do so? If not, it seems like you're suggesting there's no real point in working hard... because they harder one works, the more gets taken from him and he's not even allowed to complain about it. That's brilliant.


2 reasons:

First, no man is an island unto themselves. This country supports your ability to make that high wage in a variety of ways, and poor people work for little money all day long to keep your ass comfortable. You can't escape this fact no matter how hard you think you work and how lazy you think they are. The least you can do is accept the fact that YOU have to pay money to enjoy your station in our society just like everyone else does.

Second, nobody said that you don't have the right to be an ass and complain about how tough your life is. Of course you do! But don't expect anyone to give a ****.

Cycloptichorn
sstainba
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 01:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


What a wonderful story you've recounted here! As to the veracity of it, who can say? You could be faking the entire story the same way that the patient in question was faking their medical problems. How is either the doctor OR us supposed to tell without, yaknow, examination?


You always say the same thing... "how do we know that's true"... And I suppose you're right. You can't possibly know any of this... because you don't work in healthcare. That's been my ongoing complaint about all of your nonsense. You're a back-seat driver. And not that it will make you believe it any more than you do now... the physician in question is my boyfriend. He luckily got her transferred out last night though.

Sidenote... since I know you have absolutely no idea how docs get paid... He spent over 3 hours with her yesterday and got to bill absolutely NOTHING for his time.

Cycloptichorn wrote:


Electronic, open and portable medical records. Hospitals and doctors both fight these because A) they require up-front investment that they are unwilling to do, and B) it makes it much harder for them to defraud the government and insurance companies. See this article:


I don't see where it says that hospitals and physicians are fighting against EMR. And really, if you knew how EMRs work, you would know that it doesn't really make it any more difficult to file fraudulent claims.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You will note that the primary frauds are not patients who come in for fake illnesses, but Hospitals and Healthcare firms who present fake bills to Medicare.

Cycloptichorn


You may note that it doesn't actually say these are "primary" sources of fraud. It also doesn't say that hospitals submit fraudulent bills - only "people" posing as dead doctors. Anyone can submit a claim... they don't need to go through a hospital.

Incidentally, smart guy, there are no bills to medicare or medicaid for patients that are uninsured like the woman I mentioned. So they wouldn't have a way of accounting for that anyway.
0 Replies
 
sstainba
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 01:31 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
And I wouldn't say I have no choice. I'll just have to get creative. I've been mulling over the idea of starting my own business... which of course will lose money like crazy. So then I can have a ****-ton of tax write-offs too and get allllll my money back. I've also though about moving to Spain. Or maybe New Zealand where it's a little warmer.


Laughing Go for either option. You Republicans are so full of hot air.

Create a business to lose a ton of money so you can save a little on taxes! That'll show 'em!


haha... you don't understand, huh? I wouldn't actually be losing any money. It would simply allow me to write off many of the expenses I already have. Duh. BTW... I'm not a republican.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Threaten to move to some other country! That's my favorite one. None of you actually have the balls to up and do it. Not only that, there is the little problem that America is the most fiscally conservative country in the world in many ways - you'd be hard-pressed to find a place to move to that will give you relief from the things you bitch about here. In Spain and New Zealand both, you will be paying for the health care of others through your taxes. Not much of a solution to your problem.


You might think that... you know, in New Zealand they do not share our medical protocols. They do not waste money like we do here. My friend just returned to the US from working in New Zealand as an ER physician. So I have a pretty good source of just what it's like.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 01:39 pm
@sstainba,
Quote:
BTW... I'm not a republican.


Your attitude is indistinguishable from one, so why not call you that? Lots of people are too embarrassed to admit they are Republicans these days.

If you create a business for the pure purpose of defrauding the government, I must warn you that you are in jeopardy of being caught doing so and fined heavily. If you feel that it is legal to do so, and there's no reason you would get in trouble, then why haven't you done so already? If saving money on your taxes was so damn important, and this was such an easy way to do it, one wonders why you haven't done it already.

Cycloptichorn
sstainba
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 02:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
BTW... I'm not a republican.


Your attitude is indistinguishable from one, so why not call you that? Lots of people are too embarrassed to admit they are Republicans these days.

If you create a business for the pure purpose of defrauding the government, I must warn you that you are in jeopardy of being caught doing so and fined heavily. If you feel that it is legal to do so, and there's no reason you would get in trouble, then why haven't you done so already? If saving money on your taxes was so damn important, and this was such an easy way to do it, one wonders why you haven't done it already.

Cycloptichorn


Not indistinguishable... I deplore religion in general and evangelical christianity especially.

I haven't done it yet because I never really thought about it. And really, it's not that important to me. I get along just fine without that money. Though now that the government is insistent on taking more of it and giving it away to other people, it's become a little more important. Like you pointed out... there's nothing I can do to stop them from taking my money. And if I can't beat 'em... I might as well join 'em.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 02:59 pm
@sstainba,
Quote:
I get along just fine without that money.


Next time you're wondering why nobody cares when you bitch, realize that poor folks can't get along fine without that money, and that's the difference between your lives.

By the way - what tax increases are you referring to, that make the government 'take more of your money?' I'd be interested to hear.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 03:39 pm
@sstainba,
sstainba wrote:

BTW... Why is it that someone who wants to keep what they earn is an ass? Shouldn't people have a right to do so? If not, it seems like you're suggesting there's no real point in working hard... because they harder one works, the more gets taken from him and he's not even allowed to complain about it. That's brilliant.

Good point. Why shouldn't middle class families be able to keep the money that they earn while Exxon Mobile pays virtually nothing!

I make plenty of money, and contribute quite a lot. I pay my taxes, and I don't bitch about it. You're attitude is that I should be, and that's crap.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 03:48 pm
@sstainba,
sstainba wrote:
I get along just fine without that money. Though now that the government is insistent on taking more of it and giving it away to other people, it's become a little more important. Like you pointed out... there's nothing I can do to stop them from taking my money. And if I can't beat 'em... I might as well join 'em.


Irony present here. You think that you have received nothing from them? Ha. Money is not being taken away from you and given to others. We pay taxes, get over it.

The 17 year old at Hardees is not stealing from you.
K
O
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 05:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
You are referring to income taxes. It is inaccurate to say that 50% of Americans pay no taxes. And to call these people 'parasites' is a disgusting attitude.


If you get back more in your refund then you pay in, isnt that the same as not paying taxes?
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 05:14 pm
@Advocate,
I have seen several sources that claim that 40% pay no income taxes and have explained how little one must earn and how young one must be to not pay taxes.

I earned less than $20,000 during 2008 and had to pay about $400 in taxes. I earned about $17,000 during 2009 working three jobs and cashed in about $1,500 in savings bonds. I might get a total refund but only because I installed a pellet stove in my house.

Gee! If sstainsba or whatever his/her nom d'email is wants the govt. to go after people like me, let it come. I will smile and think of the lying crud on Wall Street, betting against the little guy failing to pay his inflated mortgage. What a sick crew.

0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 06/29/2024 at 12:33:55