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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 11:46 pm
The democrats are trying to ram through a health plan before Massachusetts' gets their next senator who might be a republican.

They have created a health plan with nothing that seems to please most Americans, and we still don't know the real cost.

This is no way to run our country.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 09:08 am
@cicerone imposter,
Well, I have my doubts that the next Senator from MA will be a Repub, but would dearly love that to happen. You can bet I'll be up late Tues evening eagerly awaiting the results.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 12:47 am
@cicerone imposter,
Intrade has Brown 69, Coakley 35.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 01:12 am
@Irishk,
Thanks. I don't know the organization but that sounds like good news.

Still waiting on election results.
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 07:10 am
Predictions

Scott Brown will win a close election in Mass.

Dems will scream FRAUD and stall the final certification.

slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 08:39 am
@woiyo,
Woiyo wrote:
Dems will scream FRAUD...


That's funny....the Dems calling fraud in the bluest of blue states!? They are the one's urging Dems to vote 10 times, if possible. Somehow I don't think they'll find a sympathetic audience to cries of fraud...of course, they'll still try to stall certification or otherwise thwart the will of the people.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:08 am
@roger,
How can that be good news? Were you not around during the last nine years when the Republicans essentially ruined our country? The last thing we need is a new Republican senator to gum up the nation's turnaround.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:43 am
@Advocate,
In most instances I would agree with you, but this administration and congress are trying to ram through a health plan reform that doesn't do much in saving cost. They're still trying to work out penalizing union health plans and taxing the wealthy; their two forms of paying for the 31 million plus they want to add to the health insurance.

My only question now, is "how are they going to pay for them if they have no way to increase revenue?" I haven't seen any method of cost savings yet.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:49 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

The democrats are trying to ram through a health plan before Massachusetts' gets their next senator who might be a republican.

They have created a health plan with nothing that seems to please most Americans, and we still don't know the real cost.

This is no way to run our country.


You seem to be hung up on costs. As you know, there is the CBO estimate. Moreover, exact costs are rarely knowable in advance, especially on something as complex as health reform. I might add that the private sector cannot always nail down cost estimates, which is why firms go out of business every day.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 11:15 am
@Advocate,
Unfortunately the government doesn't go out of business.... it just keeps spending, and spending, and spending....

While the real costs of such progrtams aren't readily knowable in advance as you suggest, they are almost always significantly more that was originally estimated when they were enacted. This has been true of Medicare, Medicaid and virtually every other entitlement program.

The probability that the draft health care legislation will cost much more than is currently estimated by an Administration trying desperately to hide its costs is very high indeed.

Moreover the administration has used more than a little duplicity in hiding even the costs it acknowledges. They are forecasting costs only over a ten year period and have deliberately delayed the benefits for about five years while applying the new taxes now. That means the net cost in the second ten year period and forever thereafter will be hugely greater than the one being discussed now. This kind of behavior on the part of a business or a bank would be illegal.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 11:21 am
@Advocate,
I don't have to tell me that government estimates on costs are not accurate. However, Obama promised that this health plan reform will not "cost a dime more."

I'm just a skeptic when it comes to rhetoric that's not obvious about cost savings in the current legislation now being pushed through in congress.
They've already sacrificed two forms of revenue; taxing the wealthy, and those with a "cadillac health plan."

Their two major source of funding seems to have swam away, and I've seen nothing to save cost. Have you?

I've listed many ways they could have saved cost earlier in this debate, but they haven't included any one of them in their legislation - that I've noticed or seen.

How are they going to pay for the 31 million more people getting health insurance if their revenue source is reduced, and they have no action to save cost?

What am I missing? I worked in financial management for most of my career, so I'd like to see how they're going to pay for all this.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 12:18 pm
George, you are right that the govt. just continues to spend. (Hopefully, we will stop borrowing the money for this.) It spends for schools, postal services, social security, Medicare, defense, etc. What govt. services would you eliminate?

CI, where do you get your info? My understanding is that the couples making over $500,000 will still be taxed, and that, while cut back, cadillac plans will still be taxed. Also, the Bush tax cuts for billionaires are expiring and will not be renewed.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 12:41 pm
@Advocate,
Try these:

From PBS:
Should high-value insurance plans be taxed, or should high-income households pay the price?

The Senate proposal, which President Obama supports, would raise about $150 billion over six years. The money would come from imposing an excise tax of 40 percent on the portion of any policy that costs more than $8,500 (this was recently changed to $8,900) for individuals or $23,000 for families. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that would affect one in five workers by 2016. The White House and some economists argue this approach would rein in health care spending by discouraging excessive insurance coverage.

From Washington Watch:

The unions and the White House agreed on a higher threshold for what defines a Cadillac plan: $8,900 instead of $8,500 for an individual and $24,000 rather than $23,000 for a family of four. The tax rate remains 40% but it would hit fewer people.

From NewsObserver.com:

The Senate health care bill includes two major tax increases. The tax on high end plans would raise $149 billion by levying a 40 percent excise tax on insurance companies that offer plans costing more than $8,500 (what will happen when this is revised to $8,900?) for individual plans and $23,000 for family plans. It also would hike the Medicare payroll tax rate to 2.35 percent for individuals with more than $200,000 income and couples with more than $250,000, but would still exempt unearned income.
The House version of the bill, by contrast, would raise revenues by slapping a 5.4 percent income surtax on very wealthy people - individuals with more than $500,000 income, and couples with more than $1 million.
The Medicare tax is emerging as an avenue for compromise between taxing wealthy people and taxing high-end plans. The focus on upper income people and unearned income bridges the House and Senate approaches, said House Ways and Means Chairman Charles Rangel, D-N.Y.


Looks to me like they're still negotiating where and how much?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 02:18 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

George, you are right that the govt. just continues to spend. (Hopefully, we will stop borrowing the money for this.) It spends for schools, postal services, social security, Medicare, defense, etc. What govt. services would you eliminate?

CI, where do you get your info? My understanding is that the couples making over $500,000 will still be taxed, and that, while cut back????, cadillac plans will still be taxed. Also, the Bush tax cuts for billionaires are expiring and will not be renewed.


What do you mean, "cut back"? The hot plan of the day is to eliminate the tax from union members. Join a union, and you're somehow better and/or more needy than the rest of the population? That is not a cut back, it's a plain and simple bribe for continued Democratic votes. Cut back, my ass.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 02:39 pm
@roger,
Cadillac plans limits was increased from $8,500 to $8,900. I'm still not sure how much this will impact the revenue stream from this change.

They're still not sure about taxing the wealthy; when, where, and how much.

You have solid figures?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 03:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Sorry, but no. My focus is exempting cadillac plan taxes from union members, which is a more recent proposal. Actually, I also oppose taxing health care plans for anyone. Isn't the idea to have more people covered? If it is, taxing good health plans sounds somewhat counterproductive. I mean, we've snuck in all kinds of tobacco taxes to discourage smoking. Now, we are going to have taxes on health care packages to encourage health care insurance. I'm having trouble with the logic.

Also, why an exemption for union members? The obvious answer is that unions tend to support Democrat political candidates, but isn't this a little blatant? Are union restaurant workers supposed to be better, or more deserving than nonunion workers?

Actually, I'm just frustrated at all the noble sounding laws and proposed laws that are truely inspired by nothing other than political motives.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 04:04 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Advocate wrote:

George, you are right that the govt. just continues to spend. (Hopefully, we will stop borrowing the money for this.) It spends for schools, postal services, social security, Medicare, defense, etc. What govt. services would you eliminate?

CI, where do you get your info? My understanding is that the couples making over $500,000 will still be taxed, and that, while cut back????, cadillac plans will still be taxed. Also, the Bush tax cuts for billionaires are expiring and will not be renewed.


What do you mean, "cut back"? The hot plan of the day is to eliminate the tax from union members. Join a union, and you're somehow better and/or more needy than the rest of the population? That is not a cut back, it's a plain and simple bribe for continued Democratic votes. Cut back, my ass.


It is not just union members who are covered by cadillac plans. Also, the members make a strong argument that they don't make that much to begin with, and the better plan was negotiated for in lieu of higher pay. So your ass is, besides being big, wrong again.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 04:09 pm
@roger,
I agree; we seem to be on the same page.

As I've said often, I just don't see cost savings, but instead, see others with health insurance get penalized.

What's with that?

Washington has been spending more without the proper fiduciary responsibilities, and continue to add to our already too huge deficit. That's what I'm most concerned about. We can't keep transferring this deficit to our children and grandchildren. If they can't cut cost, they must not increase taxes. They already borrow from the social security/Medicare trust fund, and continue to spend trillions without any regard to our future economy.

It's the worst time to be talking about increasing taxes on the middle class and the poor; thousands are still losing their jobs, hours, homes, and cars.

Trillions of bad paper (real estate and commercial property) are still on most bank's books that they hide and claim they're now making a profit. Our local newspaper just reported that office vacancy is the highest its been for decades, and there are many commercial property construction that's been stopped because banks stopped lending money on these projects. All this while they give billions in bonuses to their employees - soon after the American taxpayer bailed them out of a liquidity crisis last year.

Who's kidding who? The government and banks are all crooks guided by greed.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 04:38 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:


It is not just union members who are covered by cadillac plans. Also, the members make a strong argument that they don't make that much to begin with, and the better plan was negotiated for in lieu of higher pay. So your ass is, besides being big, wrong again.


Ah, but it is only union members who are intended to be exempt!

Try not to focus on my ass, btw, unless you find that kind of thing truely fascinating.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 05:10 pm
@roger,
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
Quote:
Earnings

In 2008, among full-time wage and salary workers, union members had median usual weekly earnings of $886 ($46,072/year) while those who were not represented by unions had median weekly earnings of $691 ($35,932/year). (See table 2.)
The difference reflects a variety of influences in addition to coverage by a collective bargaining agreement, including variations inthe distributions of union members and nonunion employees by occupation, industry, firm size, or geographic region. (For a discussion of the problem of differentiating between the influence of unionization status and the influence of other worker characteristics on employee earnings, see "Measuring union-nonunion earnings differences,
" Monthly Labor Review, June 1990.)


I belonged to several unions before I graduated from college, and earned pretty good wages. Since then, I've always supported unions, because I learned while taking Econ 101 that unions help non-union workers with higher wages and benefits.

Those 2008 average union wages are not exactly wealth-building income, but seem rather very low to me!
 

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