65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 04:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well, okay maybe. Still, I think there is a fair sized group of people sitting around waiting for free health insurance if only us damn Republicans would just get out of the way. Boy, are they going to be surprised. I think it would be useful to the decision making process for them to learn exactly how many dollars are going to be snatched out of their billfolds and purses.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 04:27 pm
@roger,
Medical care is bankrupting the nation, we cant afford to pay what we (the collective America) pays now , paying more per year is going to make the situation worse. We are a declining superpower massively in debt, we need to be learning to live with-in our means. Nope, we choose not to do it. It is called irresponsibility. We are no different than the family who can barely pay its bills this month who goes out and buys a new car "because we need it". No, there was always the bus option, the car was not required, and before you bought the car you should have gotten your financial affairs in order.

The family that congratulates itself on its new car purchase may feel differently when bill paying time roles around the next month. They also may look back in a year or two and decide that they cost of the car was the straw that collapsed their financial house, and left them homeless. Put it in the "it sounded like a good idea at the time" column.

What WILL our bankers, the Chinese, the Japanese the the Opec fat cats think of our new plan? Will this be the event that teaches them that America is a bad credit risk because we refuse to behave like adults? We may regret this bill much sooner than anyone expects......as soon as a few weeks from now we might see the ramifications on the international debt markets.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 05:49 pm
Whatever legislation that may get passed in the Senate must still be reconciled with the House Bill and the Senate version itself is changing fast.

Many details are not yet clear, but what is evident is that for the first three years or so we will see only higher taxes on the "rich" ; fewer choices for employer health plans which will likely provide fewer benefits and at a higher cost; much higher premiums for those who buy their own insurance; and various forms of compulsion for those (generally young and healthy) who currently chose to forego health insurance. The "benefits" don't kick in for about three years - a clever device with which to hide the ultimate budget cost and enable deceitful claims about minimal net deficit effects for the first ten or so years.

All these factors plus the inevitable as yet undiscovered side effects of this massive redesign of a complex system done by the amateur crooks and charaltains in the Congress are likely to create a few more years of public frustration and unrest with respect to the wisdom and effectiveness of this "progressive" administration.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 07:20 pm
@roger,
I was wondering how much it would cost the individual to buy health insurance from the supposed "pool" that the govt wants to set up.

When does the insurance take effect?
What are we getting for our individual premium costs?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 07:45 pm
@georgeob1,
Why do you call them crooks in congress amateurs, George?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 07:50 pm
@mysteryman,
Well mysteryman, those are all questions to which I would like answers, too. I can give you a clue about the costs of being in the "pool", though. I was once in an auto insurance pool, also called the assigned risk pool. It was the most expensive level of liability available without a DUI or DWI. I worked for a company that was in an insurance pool for worker's compensation for awhile. That was also carried the highest multiplier.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 09:06 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Why do you call them crooks in congress amateurs, George?


Poor syntax on my part. I had in mind amateur with respect to the health care task at hand.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:26 am
@georgeob1,
I think they are professional hucksters, folks, not amateurs. Very amateur in regard to knowledge of fixing issues that relate to the economy, business, and health insurance or medical treatment, but not amateur in regard to growing government. Many of the Democrats have made politics their entire life's work. Example, Obama, his biggest accomplishment before Washington was community organizing or learning and organizing political power in corrupt Chicago politics, with groups like ACORN, and people like Marxists Saul Alinsky and Jeremiah Wright serving as his teachers and mentors, which are totally and all about learning how to organize government in ways to usurp more of the rights and responsibilities from citizens and handing them over to the almighty State, with the overall push to expand the size and power of the State. Obama has even suggested and promoted the idea of a civilian security force every bit as big and powerful, and as well funded, as the military. Although that appears to be clearly in the spirit of some of the most ruthless dictators in history such as Hitler and Stalin, and should have relegated Obama to less than 1% of the vote in the election, instead the popular media propped up the man and promoted this relatively inexperienced and mis-guided man into winning the presidency. We must now endure the consequences of a misguided and illusional Congress following Obama down the path of enlarging the government and continuing to try to usurp more power and responsibility away from the citizens.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 01:11 pm
@georgeob1,
I don't think that any of the plans discussed now in the USA is 'excellent' - but all seem better than the system now in use.

To make it clear: I don't think that our system is excellent either - but the Swiss have done a very good job ... changing their version of our system to today's needs. Wink
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 04:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Yeah, but they are Swiss !
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:59 pm
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Columns/2009/December/122109Cohn.aspx

Quote:
The Senate Bill Saves Families Money
PrintShareEmailTopics: Health Costs, Health Reform

Jonathan Cohn, Senior Editor of The New Republic

Dec 21, 2009

This column is a collaboration between KHN and The New Republic.

Health care reform looks like it’s finally ready to pass the Senate, now that the Democrats have 60 votes in hand. But here on the left, not all of us are jumping for joy. Some think the Senate bill is just barely better than nothing. Others think it’s worse than even that.

As this argument goes, health care reform won’t do all that much to help people who need it. Insurance will still be expensive and even people who have coverage will discover they owe significant out-of-pocket expenses once they get sick. A public insurance option might have made this tolerable, since it would have provided better, cheaper coverage. Without it, many of us are arguing, reform is just a big giveaway to the insurance industry--one that produces little social progress.

It’s certainly true that, under the terms of the Senate bill, insurance would cost more and cover less than many of us would prefer. But would it really produce little social progress? Is it really worse than nothing?

One way to answer this question is by comparing how a typical family would fare with reform and without. At my request, MIT economist Jonathan Gruber produced a set of figures, based on official Congressional Budget Office estimates. The results tell a pretty compelling story, particularly when put in human terms.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Columns/2009/December/~/media/CC9EB727BC494A1BB5FE01E9B71EA036.gif

Let’s imagine it’s 2016 and you are an administrative assistant, a garage mechanic or perhaps trying your hand at consulting for the first time. You’re married, just turned 40 and have two kids to feed on a household income of around $50,000. You want to buy health insurance, but can’t get it through an employer. How much will it cost? And how much--or how little--protection will it provide?

If reform doesn’t pass, according to Gruber’s figures, the average premium for the non-group market--that is, the market for people buying coverage on their own--will be around $12,000 a year. Right off the bat, you’re spending a fifth of your income on health insurance.

But what does it cover? Policies in the non-group market are notoriously spotty and unreliable. And benefit requirements vary enormously depending on the state. Many allow considerable, sometimes unlimited, out-of-pocket expenses. For the sake of comparison, though, let’s assume you have a policy with a deductible no higher than that allowed for a Health Savings Account. According to Gruber’s projections, that would mean you’re on the hook for--wait for it--another $12,000, plus a few hundred in change.

Put it altogether and that’s a total liability of around nearly $25,000--about half of your income.

That may actually be a best-case scenario in one sense. If you’re going to hit that high deductible, chances are pretty good that someone in your family has a chronic medical condition. And if you or your family member has had that condition all along, insurers might not even sell you a policy. Maybe you have diabetes. Or you’re married to a cancer survivor. Maybe one of your kids has asthma. Whatever the case, chances are you can’t get health insurance at all. Your total risk of loss would be, well, every single penny you have.

So what happens if reform does pass? For starters--and this is no small thing--the insurance company will have to sell you a policy, no matter what pre-existing conditions your family brings to the table. And you’ll know from the start that the policy will cover basic services because the government will be defining a basic benefits package. That package is going to include a broader range of services than the typical non-group policy would without reform. So when your doctor recommends a standard test or procedure, you won't have to panic it falls into some hidden policy loophole.

But what will that coverage cost? The basic premium is roughly the same, according to Gruber’s calculations that he extrapolated from official Congressional Budget Office estimates. But that $50,000 income means you’re also eligible for federal subsidies. Large federal subsidies. In fact, the government will cover about two-thirds of the price, so that you’re left owing just $3,600.

Now, you could end up spending a lot more on medical care if you or someone in your family gets sick. But here, too, the federal government would step in to help. Under the reforms, the government would limit out-of-pocket spending to around $6,000 per year. Combined with the premium, you’re on the hook for around $10,000 total, or about a fifth of your income.

That’s not pocket change, for sure. A family making $50,000 will have to make serious sacrifices to find $10,000. But it’s better--light years better--than finding $25,000 or more. It’s potentially the difference between having to give up your home, get an extra job or declare bankruptcy. Just knowing the bills that could come will be the difference between getting care you need--and skipping it, at grave risk to your health.

It’s a difference you’d feel at other income levels, too. If your family of four makes more money--say, around $75,000--your premiums and out-of-pocket expenses will be higher, but still a few thousand less than it’d be without reform. If you make less money-- $35,000--the savings would be much larger. (If you make less than that, you'll probably be on Medicaid, which offers even more protection.)

Could the deal be better still? Of course it could. The House bill, for example, offers substantially better protection from out-of-pocket expenses.

That's an argument for improving the Senate bill in conference committee, when its members meet with their House of Representatives counterparts, and for improving the law if and when it goes into effect. Those of us on the left can, and should, fight for both.

But we should also recognize the Senate bill for what it is: A measure that will make people's lives significantly better. Surely that's worth a little enthusiasm.


While the bill certainly could be better, it's far preferable to the alternative.

And, it is just the beginning. Over the next several years, Dems will be attaching riders to all sorts of legislation in order to provide fixes for some of the things that couldn't be achieved right now thanks to the intransigence of people like Baucus, Lieberman, and the entire Republican party. They will also use Reconciliation to make changes to the bill as well, and avoid the Filibuster altogether.

The big problem for Republicans is how dang popular this is going to work out to be - and if you have stock in insurance companies, I would seriously examine the wisdom of holding on to those shares, as it is not going to be as profitable industry in the future as it is today. And why should it be? What benefit is added by the profit motive, when it comes to health insurance?

I say, good riddance to bad rubbish! Anything that gets us closer to Single Payer health care, the better; and the more that the Republicans are against it, the better. I predict that the dems will be riding the health care reform pony at the polls for some time to come.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What benefit is added by the profit motive, when it comes to health insurance?Cycloptichorn

After all, profits are evil, right cyclops? If anyone has any question about it, just read what Stalin, Hitler, Chairman Mao, and all the other great economists in history thought as well, because they would all agree with cyclops and Obama.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 03:23 am
@okie,
okie forgot to mention Bismarck: since 1883 none of the mandatory insurance companies makes "profits" in Germany - same in other European countries with a mandatory/universal system. (NB: I'm not referring to companies offering private health insurances!)
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 03:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Of course, he set the age for the equivalent of social security at age 65. Darn few lived to collect.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 05:54 am
@roger,
Well, retirement pay was 70 in those days actually.
But that has nothing to do with health isnurance - you get benefits from the health insurance from birth until death (and until a couple of years ago even beyond: funerals were paid by the mandatory health insurance, too).

'Social security' (pension) is paid from different sources. (It was introduced by Bismarck, too, as was the mandatory 'accident insurance at work' and widow's and orphans' pensions, to name a few.)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 09:34 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
What benefit is added by the profit motive, when it comes to health insurance?Cycloptichorn

After all, profits are evil, right cyclops? If anyone has any question about it, just read what Stalin, Hitler, Chairman Mao, and all the other great economists in history thought as well, because they would all agree with cyclops and Obama.


Okie, stop being an ass. It makes discussions with you immensely boring.

Answer the question, rather than be a jerk - if you can.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 10:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I speak the truth. If you like communists and their students, continue to support Obama. You know it, cyclops, if you are not ashamed of them, be proud of them. That includes all the great leftists in history, such as Stalin, Chairman Mao, Hitler, and the rest of them. If that kind of politics is what you support, be proud, go all the way, at least be honest, as you have shown a glimmer of lately in your replies to my questions.

The alternative to the above is to support conservatism, freedom, liberty, capitalism, and the great American tradition, starting with the Declaration of Independence, all of which I believe in wholeheartedly and endorse, and I am not ashamed of it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 10:26 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

I speak the truth.


No, you're just being an ass. Attempts for you to engage me using your weak form of logic and reason have failed spectacularly for you and so you resort to name-calling.

Quote:
If you like communists and their students, continue to support Obama. You know it, cyclops, if you are not ashamed of them, be proud of them. That includes all the great leftists in history, such as Stalin, Chairman Mao, Hitler, and the rest of them. If that kind of politics is what you support, be proud, go all the way, at least be honest, as you have shown a glimmer of lately in your replies to my questions.


I don't support any of those people, and you know it.

If you can't quit being a little shithead, you're going to get a time-out, Okie. I lack patience for this sort of thing. If you want to continue discussion, maybe you could try actually addressing the topic and answer my question: what benefit does for-profit health insurance provide?

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 10:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
"Profit motive," you speak of that in your arrogance as if you are holier than those that worked to earn it. Its called hard work and liberty. At least people can earn profits, Obama and his fellow travelers never earned anything, and I would challenge him to try it for a change, instead of stealing it from those that did earn it so that he can give it to his supporters and voters.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 10:32 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I don't support any of those people, and you know it.
Cycloptichorn

You are supporting their economic idealogy and you know it. Be honest. Have the decency of that.
 

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