IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

Bitching about people who bitch about Obama. Isn't it obvious?

Joking aside; I do research and look for background info on that which I post about. Many here do not, they complain that information isn't available when it completely is; they read puff pieces on political items without bothering to check the sources or the data; and they have so little historical perspective when it comes to politics, that they don't understand the issues they discuss in any real depth, but feel perfectly free to criticize constantly. The worst isn't when it comes from the opposing party - that's natural, at least - but so-called Dems who do nothing but criticize the Dems, or Republicans who do the same towards their side. It's so easy to bitch and so difficult to actually put in work to make these things happen, it's very frustrating to watch people do nothing but complain.

The worst part of the whole thing, to me, is that Obama made it perfectly clear during the campaign that the things he was talking about doing would be very, very difficult and the entrenched interests were going to fight to the death to stop his plans. He specifically told those who voted for him that it would take patience and active effort on all of our parts to get the job done. Too many seem to have either forgotten or ignored that part of the equation, and think that he has some sort of magic wand that he can wave to make big changes happen. Obama does not and the Dems in Congress aren't getting the job done; in part because we as Dems have gotten lazy after our big victory last Fall.

I am no model of perfection on this issue but I try to maintain the right attitude, and try to put in work - every week - to accomplish the goals that I voted for. I have little patience for those who do no work and offer no support for the candidates they voted for, and there's no reason at all to not let people know how I feel. If that hurts their feelings, tough ****.

Cycloptichorn

Less than 40% of the American people want Obama and his Democrat party to do anything about health care.

More than 60% of Americans want Obama and his Democrat
party to scrap all of their plans for universal health care!

And from page 10:

Well, I was thinking of something along that line.

I don't think one can justly fault the Democrats for a lack of effort in this matter. Instead I believe they have stumbled over contradictions in the various aspects of their own desires. More fundamentally, they appear to be propelled by the notion that their mandate is to see to the redistribution of existing services and resources, instead of creating new ones to serve a broader public. This, together with a few pesky constitutional issues and the inevitable backlash from those who will lose in the exchanges proposed has led them down blind alleys of massive public debt and extraordinary intervention in the lives of a broad segment of the public.

While it is certainly true that during the campaign President Obama emphasized the political difficulties involved as you said, he was also artfully vague about what specifically he wanted and very liberal in assuring people that their present arrangements would not be affected. I believe this enabled some of his supporters to read what specifics they wanted into his words, setting them up for disappointment later. For those in the middle now contemplating large tax increases and government imposed costly restructuring of current insurance programs, the earlier assurances now may seem deceitful. It is likely that the fate of the earlier Clinton attempt guided Obama's tactics, and that most of these political difficulties can't be avoided if one is determined to base a solution exclusively on government-directed redistribution of assets and services.

I believe it would have been far wiser and better for us all if either party had placed more emphhasis on increasing the supply of medical practicioners and services directly.

kinda funny really, today I watched Sen McCain complain about Al Frankin shutting off Leiberman last evening saying "this is unheard of" and then watching a clip of McCain doing exactly the same thing a few years ago to a Sen from Minnesota. Making sausage is pretty funny.

Cyclo,
Earlier in this thread, you mentioned some benefits that will go into effect immediately.
One of them was a "pool" of some sort for those that dont have insurance, cant afford it or otherwise cant get it (Im quoting from memory, so excuse me if I didnt get it perfectly right).

I have some questions about that "pool" that I havent heard answered or even discussed at all, but they all need to be addressed first.

How will people be able to buy into it?
How much will it cost?
Who will administer it?
What will it cover?
Will it cover dental, hearing, mental health, optical, etc?
What wont it cover?
What Drs or hospitals will accept it?
When does coverage start?

None of those have been addressed at all, and all of them must be before it can go into effect.

It seems the Senate Dems have finally reached a deal on the bill, and there have been some changes in just the last few days. Allow me to review the final language as soon as I can and I will give you solid answers to those questions.

Cycloptichorn

The downfall of this Republic and all that is good & decent is at hand.

Obama's Democrat health care bill must be killed.

OMG, the downfall of the republic! How long will this take?

So the Washington now looks to pass a bill that the vast majority of Americans think is a bad bill. This is supposed to be good thing? For whom?

The Washington establishment producing crap is not necessarily better for the Washington Establishment than is the now customary doing nothing.

BAd law is bad for American and Americans, this seems pretty clear to me.

I think the only hope for a decent result is if time proves the majority of Americans wrong, and the majority of politicians right.

As far as I know, none of the questions I just asked have even been discussed.

while I do realize I am basically ignorant I do opine that noone outside the beltway have any answers to your questions and I doubt very much if more than a handful inside the beltway have any answers either. The weird thing is that (like most all republicans) I am against the plan even though I too have not read it. The comedy is the process, absolutely noone inside the beltway is demonstrating any degree of rationality regardless of their political orientation. Buffoons each and every one of them. the really icky thing is we the people will re-elect them or replace them with just as inane replacements.

This should be two questions, or maybe three. How much will it cost in total, how much will it cost the government (us), and how much will it cost in individual premiums. I'm sure the last cost question has never been discussed. Raised, yes (by me); discussed, no.

Everything else has been at leased touched upon, but so far as I know, it's all speculation right now. BPB was able to buy into Medicare recently. He reports that the average cost of doing so is about $7,000/year, if that gives you any idea of what we are looking. On the same thread, I believe, it was reported that the average Medicare member costs roughly 8,000/year. I didn't verify the sources for either figure, but I am getting the idea that it isn't going to be cheap.

it is valid to keep it as a single question, which is rarely done but should have been done......How much will this change in law cost the America society over the next few years?

Who's pocket it comes out of, which account it comes out of, is secondary.....that speaks to fairness of the dividing of costs. The bottom line cost to America/bottom line benefit to America evaluation is the main thing, and has not been done.

Perhaps it's interesting to look at the data in other countries.
In 2006, in Germany, the (then) mandatory insurance paid per member between 1,200€ ($1,700) and 1,500€ ($2,500) (that's for all and everything: doctor visits, hospital, medical aids, psychotherapy, physiotherapy, medicaments, dentists, specialists, cures, sick pay [six weeks full salary] etc), with a monthly fee between $140 and $860 (including compulsory long term care insurance).

WTF does that have to do with anything? This is not Germany. We are stick with a broken medical services system with incentives that are bat-**** crazy.....which no one shows any interest in fixing.

This thread is called "It's time for universal healthcare".
Germany got universal healthcare since more than 120 years.
You certainly can have the opinion that such is unrelated.

What is unrelated is the German cost of product to the American cost of product. It must be past your bedtime.

That's interesting, Walter, but not a really valid comparison if I'm reading it correctly. You seem to be giving numbers for the general population. With the exception of some very high dollar conditions like End Stage Renal Disease, Medicare is limited to those aged 65 and over. The group typically has higher medical costs than the general population.