65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 08:00 am
@okie,
Give us a break! A fetus is not an infant.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 10:25 am
@Advocate,
okie will never learn that simple lesson; a fetus is not an infant. He then translates that as "killing infants."

There's no cure for stupid.

If okie et al are so concerned about abortion and the sanctity of life, he needs to go to Vietnam where their abortion rate is one of the highest in the world.

We all know okie is a hypocrite; he really doesn't understand what "pro-life" is all about.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 10:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
Here's an area that the congress hasn't approached, but can mean the difference between affordability and not. They have talked all day about how much it's going to cost without looking at how much can be saved; a big mistake.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091026/ts_nm/us_usa_healthcare_waste_4
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 10:39 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Here's an area that the congress hasn't approached, but can mean the difference between affordability and not. They have talked all day about how much it's going to cost without looking at how much can be saved; a big mistake.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091026/ts_nm/us_usa_healthcare_waste_4


On the contrary; Obama has mentioned these points many times as ways that the bill will be paid, in part; especially focusing on electronic medical records, medicare fraud, and preventable diseases such as diabetes.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 10:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
This is very interesting, and while I have heard Obama say that we'll do this to help pay for his/congress' plan; I'm wondering why we just don't do something about it anyway, regardless of the plan.

I've bolded some points that I find very interesting
Quote:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) " The U.S. healthcare system is just as wasteful as President Barack Obama says it is, and proposed reforms could be paid for by fixing some of the most obvious inefficiencies, preventing mistakes and fighting fraud, according to a Thomson Reuters report released on Monday.

The U.S. healthcare system wastes between $505 billion and $850 billion every year, the report from Robert Kelley, vice president of healthcare analytics at Thomson Reuters, found.

"America's healthcare system is indeed hemorrhaging billions of dollars, and the opportunities to slow the fiscal bleeding are substantial," the report reads.

"The bad news is that an estimated $700 billion is wasted annually. That's one-third of the nation's healthcare bill," Kelley said in a statement.

"The good news is that by attacking waste we can reduce healthcare costs without adversely affecting the quality of care or access to care."

One example -- a paper-based system that discourages sharing of medical records accounts for 6 percent of annual overspending.

"It is waste when caregivers duplicate tests because results recorded in a patient's record with one provider are not available to another or when medical staff provides inappropriate treatment because relevant history of previous treatment cannot be accessed," the report reads.

Some other findings in the report from Thomson Reuters, the parent company of Reuters:

* Unnecessary care such as the overuse of antibiotics and lab tests to protect against malpractice exposure makes up 37 percent of healthcare waste or $200 to $300 billion a year.

* Fraud makes up 22 percent of healthcare waste, or up to $200 billion a year in fraudulent Medicare claims, kickbacks for referrals for unnecessary services and other scams.

* Administrative inefficiency and redundant paperwork account for 18 percent of healthcare waste.

* Medical mistakes account for $50 billion to $100 billion in unnecessary spending each year, or 11 percent of the total.

* Preventable conditions such as uncontrolled diabetes cost $30 billion to $50 billion a year.

"The average U.S. hospital spends one-quarter of its budget on billing and administration, nearly twice the average in Canada," reads the report, citing dozens of other research papers.

"American physicians spend nearly eight hours per week on paperwork and employ 1.66 clerical workers per doctor, far more than in Canada," it says, quoting a 2003 New England Journal of Medicine paper by Harvard University researcher Dr. Steffie Woolhandler.

Yet primary care doctors are lacking, forcing wasteful use of emergency rooms, for instance, the report reads.

All this could help explain why Americans spend more per capita and the highest percentage of GDP on healthcare than any other OECD country, yet has an unhealthier population with more diabetes, obesity and heart disease and higher rates of neonatal deaths than other developed nations.

Democratic Senator Charles Schumer said on Sunday that Senate Democratic leaders are close to securing enough votes to pass legislation to start reform of the country's $2.5 trillion healthcare system.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 11:01 am
@maporsche,
I agree; they can implement those cost savings now. That'll really show how much can be saved without the confusion of adding the added costs for universal health care. That would be the "intelligent" way to approach health care in our country, and it will "reveal" how much savings can be realized vs the actual total cost for UHC.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 11:56 am
@cicerone imposter,
I'm liking the trigger option more and more.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 12:05 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
If he has, he's failed big time; all we hear is that it's going to cost $871 billion. It doesn't mention any of the savings.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 12:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

If he has, he's failed big time; all we hear is that it's going to cost $871 billion. It doesn't mention any of the savings.


Ridiculous. You aren't paying attention to what is going on, if you claim that this is true.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 01:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Okay, show us some of those Obama rhetoric that speaks to the savings in billions?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 01:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
He's said it. However, he talks a lot about a lot, I can see how you'd miss it.

The article you linked even references Obama saying it (not quoting him though). I put it in bold when I posted the article above.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 01:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
All of the 5 different bills, including the one that Reid is sending to the CBO today, include in their cost projections some of these savings as ways they are going to be paid for. All of them. When you are talking about the topline numbers, you are talking about plans which already have those savings factored in.

Cyclotpichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:05 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Can you cut and paste to show us a) cost projections, and b) some of these savings from the five bills?

When I type in Google, "cost savings under Obama's UHC" I don't see anything pop up. I find that strange when it should be "common knowledge."
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:07 pm
@Advocate,
Thats your opinion, not mine. Gladly. I hope you feel great about it, I sure would not. I think it is a pretty pathetic attitude. Worse than pathetic.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Why don't we wait a few days and see what the result of the CBO scoring the Senate Unified bill that Reid sent them today, which includes the opt-out public option. We can argue quite a bit about preliminary versions of the bill, but it will be nice to see the actual legislation here in just a minute.

If you don't want to wait, I linked to different versions of the bills a few pages back. Go look yourself. I don't have time to hunt through them for data today.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:38 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Thats your opinion, not mine. Gladly. I hope you feel great about it, I sure would not. I think it is a pretty pathetic attitude. Worse than pathetic.


That's not an opinion, it's a definition. You don't get to make up new definitions for words to suit your argument.

And please, keep the discussion on health care, your response to me had nothing to do with health care at all.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You claimed the five bills all have cost and savings info; all I'm asking for is what they are? I would like to be able to scrutinize what they show as cost and savings before the CBO produces their numbers. When has the CBO ever been accurate?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You claimed the five bills all have cost and savings info; all I'm asking for is what they are? I would like to be able to scrutinize what they show as cost and savings before the CBO produces their numbers. When has the CBO ever been accurate?


Lol, the individual bills don't have solid numbers like that in them! They are legislative language, not financial predictions. That's what the CBO is for!

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 02:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Just as I thought! They're playing rhetoric games with cost and savings that is almost meaningless.

Even you bit.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 07:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Thats your opinion, not mine. Gladly. I hope you feel great about it, I sure would not. I think it is a pretty pathetic attitude. Worse than pathetic.


That's not an opinion, it's a definition. You don't get to make up new definitions for words to suit your argument.

And please, keep the discussion on health care, your response to me had nothing to do with health care at all.

Cycloptichorn

I can't help it if you can explain away a life by simply using a different definition. Whether you realize it or not, a fetus is a baby inside the womb, there is no difference except where it resides, and it is now well known that a baby or fetus, same thing, may be able to survive with medical assistance after about 5. 5 months, and the survivability increases as time approaches 9 months. It is also interesting to note that a baby cannot survive after being born at 9 months cannot survive either without assistance.

Anyone that is so calloused as to destroy their own offspring, I would hold suspect in terms of how much they cared about anyone, and I think it is insulting for such people to come on here and preach to the rest of us and accuse us of not caring about people simply because we object to the government performing another power grap over people's medical care. That is a direct assault upon the liberty and rights of Americans which we should all hold dear. And at the same time, you cyclops cannot bring yourself to believe that human life is more sacred than that of an animal, such as a worm, a rat, or a grasshopper.
 

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