IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@Advocate,

Quote:

Health care reform is going to include revenue raisers. For instance, there will be various tax increases, and even a tax on Cadillac plans.

I hate to admit it, but Okie asked a legitimate question.
IF the health care plan will raise some taxes, why dont Obama and the Dems address the fraud and waste in the system now?
Obama says he is going to fix the fraud and waste in medicare and medicaid th help with the cost of the new plan, as part of the health care fix.

So why wait to do that?
Why not addres that now and then see how much it actually saves.
Then factor that number into the cost estimates.

BTW, this is one of the few issues CI and I agree on.
Before I can support a plan, I want to know what it will cost, and exactly what we will be getting for our money.

I dont want estimates or WAG's, I want hard numbers.

2 Replies

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Health care reform is going to include revenue raisers. For instance, there will be various tax increases, and even a tax on Cadillac plans.

I hate to admit it, but Okie asked a legitimate question.
IF the health care plan will raise some taxes, why dont Obama and the Dems address the fraud and waste in the system now?
Obama says he is going to fix the fraud and waste in medicare and medicaid th help with the cost of the new plan, as part of the health care fix.

Yes, that's true. But that won't come close to paying for the actual bill.

Quote:

So why wait to do that?
Why not addres that now and then see how much it actually saves.
Then factor that number into the cost estimates.

Because we don't have time to pussy around. Fixing medicare doesn't begin to address the myriad problems we face in healthcare, it's just one aspect of it.

Quote:

BTW, this is one of the few issues CI and I agree on.
Before I can support a plan, I want to know what it will cost, and exactly what we will be getting for our money.

I dont want estimates or WAG's, I want hard numbers.

Tough ****, you aren't going to get them, because government and future projections don't work that way. When has the government ever given out hard numbers? And when they do, did they turn out to be accurate? No!

It's hard for me to believe that the Republicans want to delay health-care reform for any other reason than in order to score political points against the Dems. This whole 'slow down' attitude is a reflection of that. We've been working on the issue for a long time now, and there's no reason to delay taking action.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

So, what you're saying is a) since the government can't provide good numbers, b) it's okay for them to establish another program without cost estimates.

However, it's okay for them to throw around numbers like $861 billion or so.

I see contradiction here.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

So, what you're saying is a) since the government can't provide good numbers, b) it's okay for them to establish another program without cost estimates.

They have cost estimates. That's what the CBO does, and they have scored several competing versions of the bill. They are only estimates, however, and you shouldn't be surprised when they turn out to be somewhat off in the long run.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

But you said in a previous post:

Quote:

Tough ****, you aren't going to get them, because government and future projections don't work that way. When has the government ever given out hard numbers? And when they do, did they turn out to be accurate? No!

You're essentially agreeing with me that the government a) has not provided good numbers, b) we can't trust them, and c) when are we going to see good numbers that provides 1) revenue estimates, and 2) cost estimates?

Who's going to be paying for all the uninsured, and how much is that going to cost?

1 Reply

I think the govt. is going to largely pay for HC reform. This is quite a bit better than Bush's Medicare drug law, costing about $700 B, which was not paid for.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

But you said in a previous post:
Quote:
Tough ****, you aren't going to get them, because government and future projections don't work that way. When has the government ever given out hard numbers? And when they do, did they turn out to be accurate? No!

You're essentially agreeing with me that the government a) has not provided good numbers, b) we can't trust them, and c) when are we going to see good numbers that provides 1) revenue estimates, and 2) cost estimates?

Who's going to be paying for all the uninsured, and how much is that going to cost?

I said that in response to MM saying:

Quote:

I dont want estimates or WAG's, I want hard numbers.

Estimates are not 'hard numbers.' There are no hard numbers for stuff like this. I don't even know how there could be.

I believe that the CBO has provided good ESTIMATES which will reasonably describe the costs. It isn't as if some politician is just making up the numbers that they think it would cost, like the idiotic $50 billion price tag that the Bush admin tagged on the Iraq war.

Both the revenue estimates and the cost estimates exist, if you bother to do the research to find them. But this is all pretty premature, as we don't have a unified bill in either house. Once you see that, there will be a lot more discussion of cost estimates.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

We're now getting someplace! As the legislation changes, they should be able to provide cost estimates; both revenue and expenses. That's how business does business; knowing what any option and subsequent changes will cost the company.

Yes, they are "estimates." That's all we can expect. It's impossible to factor in all variables simply because our economy stays in flux.

However, if the estimates provided by employees continues to be wrong, they will not have their jobs for very long.

We're not asking for the impossible; just some detail on which options will cost the taxpayer, and how much can be saved from increasing efficiencies and revenues from the initiatives that have been considered.

Cost accountants do this every day; it's not an impossible task.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Because we don't have time to pussy around. Cycloptichorn

Whats the big rush? We've done fine for over 200 years. Why is it an emergency now?

The fact is it is not an emergency. Obama wants us to think it is, but it isn't. He did the same thing with the stimulus bill, telling us he had to have it on his desk that weekend, without Congress or us having even a chance to read it before voting. Its all blather by Obama to get what he wants. He needs to grow up.

3 Replies

@okie,

The "rush" was a power play to get what he wanted...and it worked. Problem is that it violated the spirit of democracy, it did not allow for full disclosure and full debate. We **** all over Bush for trampling democracy (he deserved it), but sadly Obama has not proven to be much better, he may not be better.

The left not being outraged by Obama's dereliction of duty weakens the argument for D's being better than R's...it in fact argues that both need to be eliminated.

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Because we don't have time to pussy around. Cycloptichorn

Whats the big rush? We've done fine for over 200 years. Why is it an emergency now?

The fact is it is not an emergency. Obama wants us to think it is, but it isn't. He did the same thing with the stimulus bill, telling us he had to have it on his desk that weekend, without Congress or us having even a chance to read it before voting. Its all blather by Obama to get what he wants. He needs to grow up.

HC reform is a rush when one considers the 47,000 dying every year from not having coverage, or decent coverage, and the million or so going bankrupt due to uncovered medical expense. The right wants delays to give it more time to generate more lies, deluding the public, in an effort to again kill off reform. I think the public has caught on to this.

0 Replies

HC premiums for small business are set to soar. Considering that small business generates the most new jobs, this is just what this country doesn't need. HC reform is needed posthaste.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/business/smallbusiness/25health.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

1 Reply

@Advocate,

People like okie can't see the obvious to promote their "self sufficiency" rhetoric.

They'd rather see our dollars spent on wars half way across the globe than to help our own citizens.

There's no cure for stupid.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Because we don't have time to pussy around. Cycloptichorn

Whats the big rush? We've done fine for over 200 years. Why is it an emergency now?

The truth is that we have not done fine. Oh, I'm sure that you personally are doing fine. But our statistics as a nation are the worst of any 1st-world country, and the fundamental problems of our healthcare system are reaching the point of unsustainability. The more our economy is sucked up by ever-increasing health care costs, the less money is available for everything else. It hurts our economic output and it hurts millions of individuals across the country.

Quote:

The fact is it is not an emergency. Obama wants us to think it is, but it isn't. He did the same thing with the stimulus bill, telling us he had to have it on his desk that weekend, without Congress or us having even a chance to read it before voting. Its all blather by Obama to get what he wants. He needs to grow up.

Typical selfish attitude of someone who is well-off themselves - in this area - and has no concern for anyone else, period. Tell the millions who can't get health insurance due to pre-existing conditions that everything is 'great.' Those who saw their premiums go up by more than 100% in the last decade, yeah - everything is fine with them too. Those who lose their job and then lose their health-care, in many cases due to the recession - everything is fine with them too, right?

You ought to spend a little time, just a little, thinking about other people for a change, Okie. Both Republicans and Democrats in Washington agree that the system is broken and needs to be fixed. They disagree as to the methods of doing so. But nobody would seriously claim that things are 'fine' and it's all a made-up problem, nobody.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

The CBO has been pumping out cost estimates on HC and Medicare reform. What more do you want? I also would like to see Medicare reforms now, but I imagine a lot of them should bear the imprimatur of congress. For instance, cutting the payments to various types of doctors is pretty political, and necessary. The latter will certainly scream, as they always do, that they can't make it with lower remuneration. (The truth is that Medicare payments usually equal or exceed the payments made to doctors by private insurers.)

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

People like okie can't see the obvious to promote their "self sufficiency" rhetoric.

They'd rather see our dollars spent on wars half way across the globe than to help our own citizens.

There's no cure for stupid.

Would you also then favor eliminating all of the money we are spending on AIDS prevention in Africa?
After all, that doesnt help our own citizens.

What about the money we are spending on other foreign aid of all kinds?
That doesnt help our own citizens either.

It seems to me that if you are going to complain about money spent that doesnt help our own citizens, you shouldnt be selective.
Lets stop all of it, not just the part you dont like.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

There's a huge difference between spending money on wars and helping people. You probably don't understand the difference.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

That pathetic opinion from a man that doesn't care about infants being aborted, and from a man that thinks a worm is equal to a man. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

2 Replies

@okie,

What has abortion to do with universal health care?

okie et al doesn't care for other Americans who are without health insurance, because he's a conservative/republican. He believes it's based on the redistribution of wealth. No matter that all the other industrialized countries on this planet provides universal health care at less cost than what we spend - that hampers our ability to compete in the world marketplace.

0 Replies

Clip from a Bukowski poem "Dinosauria we." Made me think about health care reform.

Charles Bukowski wrote:

Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it's cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it's cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes
Born into this

There's nothing new under the sun
K
O

0 Replies

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know