IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@Cycloptichorn,

The Dems aren't just twisting arms, they're asking their fellow Dems to commit political suicide. Some will no doubt bend to the wishes of their immediate masters (Majority leads in Congress) but pay the price to their real masters in 2010.

2 Replies

@slkshock7,

slkshock7 wrote:

The Dems aren't just twisting arms, they're asking their fellow Dems to commit political suicide. Some will no doubt bend to the wishes of their immediate masters (Majority leads in Congress) but pay the price to their real masters in 2010.

Political suicide in what way?

First, voting for Cloture is just voting to give the subject an up-or-down vote in the Senate. They don't have to vote for the final bill if they don't want, we have more than enough Dems to allow people to opt out of that.

Second, how would it be 'political suicide?' The public option is quite popular. Especially amongst Democrats, yaknow, the people who voted the Dems into office.

Go on though, and keep telling yourself that this will be a 'disaster' for Dems. The truth is that the plan will likely be extremely popular and your own politicians will end up defending it, the same way they now defend Medicare - remember how your party used to be dead set against it?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

I hope you're right Cyclops; we need the public option.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

How do you figure that the Dems only need 50 votes in the Senate? Have you seen something that the Dems are going reconciliation? Otherwise, the Reps could kill any legislation with a filibuster.

2 Replies

@Advocate,

Let's see them try advocate. I want 6 weeks of republican fillibustering, non stop, on the news day in and day out.

We put these fuckers info office to do the peoples work; they need to man up and stop being little chicken shits. Put the people onrecord as voting against something 60% of the public wants.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Put the people onrecord as voting against something 60% of the public wants.

According to who?

Quote:

According to Fox News surveys, the number of independents who oppose health-care reform hit 57% at the end of September, up from 33% in July. Independents are generally a quarter of the vote in off-year congressional elections.

Among college graduates, opposition to health-care reform is now 50%, while only 33% support it, according to Gallup's Sept. 24 poll. College graduates are slightly more than a quarter of the off-year electorate.

Among seniors, opposition to ObamaCare hit 63% in last month's Economist/YouGov Poll. But the number from that poll that should spook Democrats is this: 47% of seniors said they "strongly" oppose health-care reform, just 27% "strongly" support it. Seniors are the biggest consumers of health care, and their family members will probably take their concerns seriously. Seniors will likely cast about 20% of the votes next year.

2 Replies

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

How do you figure that the Dems only need 50 votes in the Senate? Have you seen something that the Dems are going reconciliation? Otherwise, the Reps could kill any legislation with a filibuster.

No they can't, they don't have enough members to filibuster. The Dems have 60 votes (now that Kirk is sworn in). They cannot be stopped by the filibuster, unless Democrats vote to sustain it, which would REALLY be political suicide for them.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

maporsche wrote:

Put the people onrecord as voting against something 60% of the public wants.

According to who?

Most pollsters, that's who. Naturally, your 'Fox News' poll is rather suspect, because Fox has made it quite clear that they are the Republican party mouthpiece on TV. In fact, now that I look at it, you ought to mention that you are quoting Karl Rove, probably the least trustworthy person in America. I see you left that little nugget out.

Not to mention the fact that Obama and the Dems got elected, running on the platform of doing exactly what they are now doing.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Most pollsters, that's who.

Cycloptichorn

So, who are they? I am not familiar with the Most pollsters group. Do they have a website?

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Quote:
According to Fox News surveys, the number of independents who oppose health-care reform hit 57% at the end of September, up from 33% in July. Independents are generally a quarter of the vote in off-year congressional elections.

Among college graduates, opposition to health-care reform is now 50%, while only 33% support it, according to Gallup's Sept. 24 poll. College graduates are slightly more than a quarter of the off-year electorate.

link: http://www.gallup.com/poll/123164/Seniors-Lean-Against-New-Healthcare-Law.aspx

Among seniors, opposition to ObamaCare hit 63% in last month's Economist/YouGov Poll. But the number from that poll that should spook Democrats is this: 47% of seniors said they "strongly" oppose health-care reform, just 27% "strongly" support it. Seniors are the biggest consumers of health care, and their family members will probably take their concerns seriously. Seniors will likely cast about 20% of the votes next year.

Link: http://media.economist.com/media/pdf/tabs20090916.pdf

I know it's easy to just blow off authors you don't like, but with the data supporting them, you don't get off that easy.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

You'll note that Rove didn't give overall approval numbers for the plan. He carefully picked out certain groups, from different polls with different wording, in order to make his case. Hardly an accurate way to go about things, though.

From the Quinnipiac poll today -

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1382

61% support a public option, including 1/3rd of self-described conservatives.

Even worse for your side:

Quote:

And all the yelling lately has not helped the GOP. Only 29% of the poll respondents think Republicans are making a good faith effort (41% think the Dems are), their favorability rating is 25% (Dems are at 38%), and only 31% trust the GOP to deal with health care reform (47% trust the President.)

Numbers that low mean that large percentages of your own party don't think the Republicans are making good-faith efforts to negotiate.

You might want to find some more recent polling, as well. Here's Gallup from just a few days ago:

Quote:

October 5, 2009
In U.S., Opposition to Healthcare Legislation Drops Modestly
Support holds steady at 51%, while percentage unsure rises
by Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans' views on healthcare legislation have shifted modestly over the past three weeks, with a slight plurality (40%) now supporting the passage of a new healthcare bill, and with fewer (36%) saying they oppose a new bill. When the leanings of those without an opinion are taken into account, 51% of Americans favor or lean toward favoring a bill, while 41% oppose it or lean toward opposition -- a more sizeable gap in favor than three weeks ago.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123470/Opposition-Healthcare-Legislation-Drops-Modestly.aspx

So, yeah. Rove's position is contrived and selects individual data points, because the overall picture shows movement in the Dems' direction.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Wha...? You are doing the exact same thing you accuse Rove of doing. Do you really not see that?

From your own link...

Quote:

American voters oppose 47 - 40 percent President Barack Obama's health care reform plan, and don't want an overhaul that only gets Democratic votes.

By a 57 - 37 percent margin, voters say Congress should not approve a health care overhaul with only Democratic votes. Democrats are OK with a one-party bill 63 - 29 percent, but opposition is 88 - 9 percent from Republicans and 62 - 32 percent from independent voters.

So which poll is showing that 60% of the voters want this to pass?

Ok, nevermind. I had to re-read that you were only discussing the public option, which is not in the bill going through the house now. I had assumed you were referring to the actual bill. My apologies.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Not to mention the fact that Obama and the Dems got elected, running on the platform of doing exactly what they are now doing.

So then they did run on the promise to increase the deficit by over 1 trillion dollars so far this year?
I thought they said they were going to cut the deficit.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

Quote:

Ok, nevermind. I had to re-read that you were only discussing the public option, which is not in the bill going through the house now. I had assumed you were referring to the actual bill. My apologies.

What the hell are you talking about? The Public Option most certainly IS in the bill going through the House, and it's in every bill in the Senate besides the Finance committee one - which is agreed by all to not be the final bill in the Senate.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Not to mention the fact that Obama and the Dems got elected, running on the platform of doing exactly what they are now doing.

So then they did run on the promise to increase the deficit by over 1 trillion dollars so far this year?
I thought they said they were going to cut the deficit.

I was referring to Health care, not every single thing the government did.

Remember that there wasn't much indication that the Stim bill would be needed, before last September or so. Hard to get candidates to 'run on' something that was not predictable before it happened.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Ok, nevermind. I had to re-read that you were only discussing the public option, which is not in the bill going through the house now. I had assumed you were referring to the actual bill. My apologies.

What the hell are you talking about? The Public Option most certainly IS in the bill going through the House, and it's in every bill in the Senate besides the Finance committee one - which is agreed by all to not be the final bill in the Senate.

Cycloptichorn

You must be reading something I am not. Which bill has come out of committee that has a public option attached to it that is going through the house that 60% of the voters (not Dems) say they want?

1 Reply

@slkshock7,

slkshock7 wrote:

The Dems aren't just twisting arms, they're asking their fellow Dems to commit political suicide. Some will no doubt bend to the wishes of their immediate masters (Majority leads in Congress) but pay the price to their real masters in 2010.

I don't know how you can say that. Every other advanced country has universal, and any politican in any of those countries who sought to abolish it would be run out of town.

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Ok, nevermind. I had to re-read that you were only discussing the public option, which is not in the bill going through the house now. I had assumed you were referring to the actual bill. My apologies.

What the hell are you talking about? The Public Option most certainly IS in the bill going through the House, and it's in every bill in the Senate besides the Finance committee one - which is agreed by all to not be the final bill in the Senate.

Cycloptichorn

You must be reading something I am not. Which bill has come out of committee that has a public option attached to it that is going through the house that 60% of the voters (not Dems) say they want?

The public generally isn't polled on specific bills in the Congress, because they cannot possibly be expected to know the details of them. They are polled on the ideas they support. The 60% number refers to support of a public option. Read the wording of the poll I posted.

The House of Reps. is committed to passing a bill with a public option; every single bill they have has one in it, though some are more Robust than others. They are pretty much guaranteed to pass a PO in their version of the bill.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Senate?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Advocate wrote:

How do you figure that the Dems only need 50 votes in the Senate? Have you seen something that the Dems are going reconciliation? Otherwise, the Reps could kill any legislation with a filibuster.

No they can't, they don't have enough members to filibuster. The Dems have 60 votes (now that Kirk is sworn in). They cannot be stopped by the filibuster, unless Democrats vote to sustain it, which would REALLY be political suicide for them.

Cycloptichorn

I think some Dems are going to vote with the Reps. I can't see all the yellow and blue dog Dems voting for this legislation.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Advocate wrote:

How do you figure that the Dems only need 50 votes in the Senate? Have you seen something that the Dems are going reconciliation? Otherwise, the Reps could kill any legislation with a filibuster.

No they can't, they don't have enough members to filibuster. The Dems have 60 votes (now that Kirk is sworn in). They cannot be stopped by the filibuster, unless Democrats vote to sustain it, which would REALLY be political suicide for them.

Cycloptichorn

I think some Dems are going to vote with the Reps. I can't see all the yellow and blue dog Dems voting for this legislation.

They don't have to vote for the legislation, they just have to vote to end debate. And the political parties are generally quite good at keeping their members together for procedural issues.

The Blue Dogs are a House of Representatives group, and the Filibuster is in the Senate. There seems to be some confusion on the various bills in various houses by some here.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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