65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 04:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
No one should be faulted for being confused. This has been a very ducked up and mis-reported on process.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 04:58 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

No one should be faulted for being confused. This has been a very ducked up and mis-reported on process.


Fair 'enuff

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 05:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The public generally isn't polled on specific bills in the Congress, because they cannot possibly be expected to know the details of them. They are polled on the ideas they support. The 60% number refers to support of a public option. Read the wording of the poll I posted.

The House of Reps. is committed to passing a bill with a public option; every single bill they have has one in it, though some are more Robust than others. They are pretty much guaranteed to pass a PO in their version of the bill.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Senate?

Cycloptichorn


The only bill that has come out of committee had 2 amendments calling for the public option voted down. There is talk of a public option, but there is nothing beyond that.

So, yes, 60% of those polled may indeed want a public option, yet 57%, as your link showed, oppose health care reform that only gets Dem votes.

The fact remains that as it currently stands, there is no bill in the house that has a public option attached to it despite what "the people" want. Rolling Eyes
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 05:28 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The public generally isn't polled on specific bills in the Congress, because they cannot possibly be expected to know the details of them. They are polled on the ideas they support. The 60% number refers to support of a public option. Read the wording of the poll I posted.

The House of Reps. is committed to passing a bill with a public option; every single bill they have has one in it, though some are more Robust than others. They are pretty much guaranteed to pass a PO in their version of the bill.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Senate?

Cycloptichorn


The only bill that has come out of committee had 2 amendments calling for the public option voted down. There is talk of a public option, but there is nothing beyond that.


McG, Geez. You are talking about the Senate, and even then you are getting confused, because the other bills which HAVE been reported out of committee most certainly do include a public option. ONLY the Finance committee bill does not.

Quote:
So, yes, 60% of those polled may indeed want a public option, yet 57%, as your link showed, oppose health care reform that only gets Dem votes.

The fact remains that as it currently stands, there is no bill in the house that has a public option attached to it despite what "the people" want. Rolling Eyes


Dude, do you even know the difference between the HOUSE of REPRESENTATIVES and the SENATE? You keep using the two terms as if they are interchangable. They are not.

Man, you are really, really confused on this issue. Do some research on the actual bills being proposed in the House of Reps., the other committees in the Senate BESIDES the finance committee, and then come back to us, mkay?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 05:41 pm
@maporsche,
You are spot on! The confusion is exacerbated by the news media that doesn't make it clear what congress is doing. From my POV, I find what they have shared with the public is still wanting.

The one area that any of the bills or reporting that I have missed are the cost breakdown and where the savings are going to be achieved.

This same congress told us that the Iraq war was going to cost $50 billion; we all know how far off they were on that major issue affecting Americans.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 05:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You are spot on! The confusion is exacerbated by the news media that doesn't make it clear what congress is doing. From my POV, I find what they have shared with the public is still wanting.

The one area that any of the bills or reporting that I have missed are the cost breakdown and where the savings are going to be achieved.


As we don't have a unified bill yet, it's hard to say what the final total will be. But you can read each individual bill and see what is being proposed; that info is all freely available.

Quote:
This same congress told us that the Iraq war was going to cost $50 billion; we all know how far off they were on that major issue affecting Americans.


Woah there, chief. It wasn't Congress who told us the Iraq war was going to cost $50 billion; that is what the Bush admin testified TO Congress. Slight difference there. And there's also been somewhat of a 'change of ownership' since then.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 06:10 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:


The only bill that has come out of committee had 2 amendments calling for the public option voted down. There is talk of a public option, but there is nothing beyond that.



Yeah, there is talk, and I don't think it is accidental. They (House, Senate, President, and whoever else they can plant in front of a microphone) will talk about every idea they can come up with. Then, they will look at the polls, read the opinion pages, and if they don't think it will fly, so what? They never proposed anything, there was just some talk going around.

Meanwhile, they'll pass what they decide is best for us and themselves, and it will be a done deal.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 06:29 pm
@roger,
It's almost as if people haven't put even an ounce of study into what is ACTUALLY happening in Congress. I really can't believe you guys sometimes. We've been talking about this issue for months, and nobody seems to have done even the most basic research on this issue.

Cycloptichorn
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 08:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
So link me info about the house bills so I can read up on them. That woudl certainly make this a lot easier.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 08:17 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

So link me info about the house bills so I can read up on them. That woudl certainly make this a lot easier.


Here ya go.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/show

Quote:
OpenCongress Summary

This is the House Democrats' big health care reform bill. Broadly, it seeks to expand health care coverage to the approximately 40 million Americans who are currently uninsured by lowering the cost of health care and making the system more efficient. To that end, it includes a new government-run insurance plan (a.k.a. a public option) to compete with the private companies, a requirement that all Americans have health insurance, a prohibition on denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions and, to pay for it all, a surtax on households with an income above $350,000. A more detailed summary of the bill by the House Committee on Education and Labor can be read here (four-page .pdf).


The Senate HELP (Health, Education, Labor and Pensions) committee passed their version, called the Affordable Health Choices act. It contains a Public option as well.

http://help.senate.gov/Maj_press/2009_07_15_b.pdf

No matter what the Finance committee passes, it must be merged with the HELP committee bill before it is brought to a vote on the Senate floor. This is why nobody is placing much stock in what the Finance bill says; it won't be the actual bill. Reid could ignore the entire Finance bill and just go with the other one - though he won't. Instead some sort of compromise will be made, and a unified bill will be voted on. THEN, that bill has to be voted on; that is when Republicans can try and filibuster. If they are unsuccessful - which is likely, given that the Dems have 60 possible votes - the bill then must be reconciled with HR 3200 in the House of Reps, which WILL pass.

So -

The Finance committee bill must be merged with a bill that contains a public option.

If THAT passes without a public option, it must be merged with ANOTHER bill that contains one.

The odds of a bill passing and not containing a public option are getting pretty small at this point. It's more likely that nothing would pass at all, and with the 2010 elections around the corner, the Dems are unlikely to let that happen.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 04:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Not only that, but many dems have already said any bill must have a public option for them to vote on it.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Oct, 2009 06:17 am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/09/AR2009100904271.html

CBO says that tort reform will save 54b over 10 years. It's worth looking at.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:14 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/09/AR2009100904271.html

CBO says that tort reform will save 54b over 10 years. It's worth looking at.


"Tort reform" is a two-edged sword. You can't simply look at one side of the equation and calculate "savings" with respect to one side alone. There are two competing sides to examine:

1) Tortfeasors: Costs and benefits both to the individual tortfeasors and to society; and

2) Victims: Costs and benefits both to the individual victims and to society as a whole.

Our lawmakers have taken huge steps over the last 2 to 3 decades in the name of "tort reform" to protect tortfeasors from the consequences of their torts. Lawmakers have made it almost impossible for victims to access the courts without jumping through many costly hoops and have made it almost impossible for victims who manage to make it to the end (sometimes taking years) to obtain a judgment that awards them the full measure of their damages.

What happens to victims who do not have the money, stamina, and legal assistance necessary to battle with tortfeasors? What happens when victims cannot obtain compensation, let alone the full measure of damages, for their injuries? What are the benefits vs. costs to society when tortfeasors escape liability and their victims become a burden upon society? Do we allow individual victims and society to suffer in our efforts to protect tortfeasors?

Perhaps we ought to examine the feigned victimhood of tortfeasors who are driving this debate and defining it as a war against "abusive lawsuits." Poor, poor, poor, tortfeasors! They are being abused!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:30 pm
@Debra Law,
When there are as many tortfeasors as there are and they have as much power over victims as they have they cannot legally be abused.

Your tertiary industries have forgotten where the money comes from.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 11:35 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

When there are as many tortfeasors as there are and they have as much power over victims as they have they cannot legally be abused.

Your tertiary industries have forgotten where the money comes from.

I am not sure leaches have a large capacity of memory or intelligence, spendius. If the numbers of leaches become so high as to threaten the existence of their hosts, it is up to the hosts to come up with something to deter that eventuality. One of those ideas is called "tort reform."
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 12:41 pm
Here is the situation as we have it now. The guys playing the game, some of them are not even elgible to play, such as illegals, others are fouling each other all the time, such as ambulance chasers, but instead of the referee doing his job and removing illegal players and calling fouls and restricting fouls, which is their constitutional job to do, they instead want to play the game themselves. The referees want to play the game for us, instead of doing what they swear to do, upholding the constitution, they instead want to do something else that the constitution does not even mandate or allow. They instead want to punish the lawful players that are playing fair instead of doing the job given them of being a referee of the rules that are given them.

Essentially we have a government that is made up of officials that apparently do not understand the job given them, or even if they did they refuse to do their jobs.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 01:17 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Thanks, much reading to do now.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 01:21 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Thanks, much reading to do now.


No prob. The Finance Committee just referred the Baucus bill out on a vote of 14-9, with Snowe voting with the Democrats.

Now the real fun begins.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 05:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Like the real fun being slipping stuff into the bill in the dead of night, probably. And not only that, I understand what Snowe voted for was not even in the final legal language such that the actual costs and actual details are spelled out, and which might be interpreted or written differently depending on which lawyers do it. This is your Congress, folks, no wonder their approval ratings are in the basement.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 05:42 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Like the real fun being slipping stuff into the bill in the dead of night, probably. And not only that, I understand what Snowe voted for was not even in the final legal language such that the actual costs and actual details are spelled out, and which might be interpreted or written differently depending on which lawyers do it. This is your Congress, folks, no wonder their approval ratings are in the basement.


When I read this, it's almost as if you are completely unaware how Congress works, how bills get made, nothing.

Do you even know what was voted on today? What Snowe voted for? I doubt it. You don't seem to have any deep understanding of any of this. The above post certainly indicates confusion about the legislative process and the steps it takes to get a bill from committee to the President's desk.

Cycloptichorn
 

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