65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 06:54 am
@mysteryman,
What do you think about Krauthammer's suggestion of an individual mandate to purchase health insurance?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 07:02 am
@FreeDuck,
To be honest, it bothers me.

That should be a persons choice, not a govt mandate.
If I choose to not have insurance, it hurts nobody.
If I choose to pay my own medical bills, that shouldnt be the govts concern.

By telling me I have to purchase insurance, it removes my freedom of choice.
Also, if I am forced to buy insurance, then the govt or private insurance companies (whichever is selling the insurance) can charge any price they choose, and nobody will have any recourse but to pay it.

I'm not sure thats a good idea.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 07:05 am
@mysteryman,
So what do you think about a government mandate about purchasing auto insurance in order to drive?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 07:11 am
@mysteryman,
I hate the idea of individual, unfunded mandates to purchase private health insurance. And I was surprised to see Krauthammer suggest it along with uncapped government subsidies that would cause huge deficits. Perhaps he is making a backhanded suggestion and his true meaning is that we should leave everything as it is. That, of course, is untenable.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 07:58 am
@FreeDuck,
freeduck, do you also hate a mandated car insurance in order to drive? If you don't, then you are not very consistant in your hates.



Description of Policy Options

Quote:
P a g e | 1
Senate Finance Committee
Expanding Health Care Coverage:

Proposals to Provide Affordable Coverage to All Americans
The U.S. is the only developed country that does not guarantee health coverage for all its citizens, with 46 million uninsured and another 25 million underinsured.

Today, the cost of caring for the uninsured is largely borne by those with insurance; providers charge higher prices to patients with private coverage to make up for uncompensated care, and these costs are passed on to consumers in the form of increased premiums. A high-performing health system would guarantee all Americans affordable, quality coverage regardless of age, health status, or medical history. This document outlines policy options for providing affordable health care coverage for all Americans.

Proposals included in this document would ensure that the insurance market functions effectively. Reforms proposed for the individual and small group markets would ensure a competitive insurance market in which plans compete on price and quality rather than on their ability to segment risk and discriminate against individuals with pre-existing health conditions. Proposals contemplated in this document would also make purchasing health insurance coverage easier and more understandable by establishing a gateway or marketplace where American consumers could easily compare and purchase the coverage that best fits their needs.

To ensure that coverage is affordable, this document outlines a proposal for targeted tax credits for low-income individuals and small businesses. And for the most vulnerable populations, policy options described here would improve public programs by covering those at the lowest end of the income scale who are least likely to have private coverage through an employer.

Once affordable, high-quality, and meaningful health insurance options are available to all Americans through their employer or the new gateway, individuals would have a personal responsibility to have health coverage. This step is necessary for insurance market reforms to function properly and to end the cost shifting that occurs within the system. It is expected that
the vast majority of American employers would continue to provide coverage as a competitive benefit to attract employees.


FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 08:02 am
@revel,
revel wrote:

freeduck, do you also hate a mandated car insurance in order to drive? If you don't, then you are not very consistant in your hates.

I'm not mandated to cover my own losses with car insurance, only those of someone who I might harm while driving. Also, if I can't afford car insurance, I don't drive. What does one do if they can't afford health insurance, kill themselves to avoid being a burden on society?

revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 08:19 am
@FreeDuck,
I thought the objection was government taking away your choices? You can't drive if you don't have at least enough insurance to take care of the other person's expenses in the event of an accident. That is taking away your choice of whether you get to drive or not.

Quote:
Consequences of Non-Coverage. In order to ensure compliance, taxpayers would be required to report the months for which they have the required minimum coverage for themselves and family members on their federal income tax returns. In addition, the insurer would be required to
report months of qualified health coverage to the individual covered and to the Internal Revenue Service. A similar reporting requirement would apply to employers with respect to individuals enrolled in group health plans if the reporting is not provided by the insurer (for example in the case of self-insured plans).

The consequence for not being insured would be an excise tax equal to a percentage of the premium for the lowest cost option available through the Health Insurance Exchange for the area where the individual resides. The excise tax would be phased-in and would equal 25 percent of the premium for the first year that the requirement is in effect; 50 percent of the premium for the second year; and 75 percent of the premium for the third year and subsequent years. The penalty would apply for any period for which the individual is not covered by a health insurance plan with the minimum required benefit but would be prorated for partial years of noncompliance.

Individuals could apply for an exemption from the penalty in three circumstances: (1) where the lowest cost option available to an individual exceeds 10 percent of income; (2) where an individual is below 100 percent of poverty; and (3) hardship.



(The same source i left previously)

I am not pushing this idea, to tell the truth, I am not smart enough to figure it all out and whether it would work or not. But I just thought it kind of ironic to moan about mandated insurance when we have been required to have some kind of insurance in order to drive for years and no one talked about loss of individual freedoms.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 08:41 am
@revel,
revel wrote:

I thought the objection was government taking away your choices?

No, the objection is being forced by the government to purchase something from a private company with no price cap and no recourse simply because I'm alive.

Quote:
You can't drive if you don't have at least enough insurance to take care of the other person's expenses in the event of an accident. That is taking away your choice of whether you get to drive or not.

It is still a choice. I don't have to drive to live, though I realize it is extremely difficult in this country to make a living if you don't. Further, I have some control over whether or not I cause an accident (not be confused with being in one) which can keep my costs down, and I'm not already paying a tax to pay for car insurance for old people and poor people and children who's parents can't afford car insurance.

Quote:
Consequences of Non-Coverage. In order to ensure compliance, taxpayers would be required to report the months for which they have the required minimum coverage for themselves and family members on their federal income tax returns. In addition, the insurer would be required to
report months of qualified health coverage to the individual covered and to the Internal Revenue Service. A similar reporting requirement would apply to employers with respect to individuals enrolled in group health plans if the reporting is not provided by the insurer (for example in the case of self-insured plans).

What a complete pain in the ass. Just tax me for it, withhold it from my paycheck and leave me the hell alone about it.

Quote:
I am not pushing this idea, to tell the truth, I am not smart enough to figure it all out and whether it would work or not. But I just thought it kind of ironic to moan about mandated insurance when we have been required to have some kind of insurance in order to drive for years and no one talked about loss of individual freedoms.

I don't think the two are the same at all, obviously. I understand why once you go down the road of trying to provide universal coverage with private insurance mandates become necessary, but I think it's the wrong approach to begin with.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:29 am
@FreeDuck,
Quote:
I don't have to drive to live, though I realize it is extremely difficult in this country to make a living if you don't.


Oh, nah. Not at all really. You just have to make it a goal, and structure your life around the concept.

Cycloptichorn
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Err, yeah, structure you life by moving to a location where it's even possible. But that's another story altogether.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:31 am
@mysteryman,
Quote:

If I choose to not have insurance, it hurts nobody.


Though I am not necessarily the strongest advocate of mandated insurance, there is a strong argument that your lack of insurance DOES hurt others: it hurts your family, your job, anyone you are in contact with, when bad things happen and you can't afford to pay for them. It causes turmoil, which is not economically or socially productive.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:43 am
Perhaps your right the two are not totally alike because you don't have to drive to live. As far as I am aware no one is proposing to deny anyone health care if they don't comply with the mandate. I think the punishment (if you will) is financial through taxes or something. Also if you go to the hospital emergency room without insurance and you can't afford to pay the bill, what happens is that insurance premiums goes up for those who do have insurance coverage, so yes, if you don't have health insurance it does affect others other than yourself.

I don't really think the mandate is the way to go, but I do think attention needs to be paid to what happens to all these unpaid hospital and other health care related bills and how it affect others with insurance coverage.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:49 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I think you could probably make a compelling argument that it's probably cheaper to own a car, and live outside of some of the cities where this type of car-less living would even be possible, than it would be to live inside those cities.

I live near Chicago, and if I lived in the city I KNOW that I could go car-less and not have any problem getting to/from work, etc.

However, to live in Chicago would cost me at least $800 more/month than I currently pay (when I count in higher taxes, fees for public transportation, higher rent/mortgage, etc). Obviously you can own a car for much cheaper.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:53 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I think you could probably make a compelling argument that it's probably cheaper to own a car, and live outside of some of the cities where this type of car-less living would even be possible, than it would be to live inside those cities.

I live near Chicago, and if I lived in the city I KNOW that I could go car-less and not have any problem getting to/from work, etc.

However, to live in Chicago would cost me at least $800 more/month than I currently pay (when I count in higher taxes, fees for public transportation, higher rent/mortgage, etc). Obviously you can own a car for much cheaper.


Yeah, it's not like not owning a car is necessarily economically cheaper; but, it does come with significant health and quality-of-life advantages, peace of mind, and simplicity.

I don't know how much a car costs to own these days, even. It's been more than 6 years since I've owned a car, and I don't miss it. Not even a little.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 09:55 am
@revel,
revel wrote:

Perhaps your right the two are not totally alike because you don't have to drive to live. As far as I am aware no one is proposing to deny anyone health care if they don't comply with the mandate. I think the punishment (if you will) is financial through taxes or something. Also if you go to the hospital emergency room without insurance and you can't afford to pay the bill, what happens is that insurance premiums goes up for those who do have insurance coverage, so yes, if you don't have health insurance it does affect others other than yourself.

If you don't have health insurance and you can't pay, that's true. My family has gone without health insurance, but we paid our bills. It's important to point out, though, that plenty of unpaid bills are for people who do or did have insurance, but whose insurance would not pay or stopped paying after a certain point.

Quote:
I don't really think the mandate is the way to go, but I do think attention needs to be paid to what happens to all these unpaid hospital and other health care related bills and how it affect others with insurance coverage.

I certainly think that the cost of unpaid care contributes to the argument for universal health care. We're paying for it anyway.
revel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 10:13 am
@FreeDuck,
You are fortunate that either you have a very nice living or you haven't had really high maintenance health problems which exceeded your income or financial situation.

Most people who go to emergency rooms for health care when they should be going to the doctor, can't afford to pay their bills, which is why they go there in the first place because they can't be denied health care at emergency room visits.

This has been a contributing factor for the rising cost of health care and the rising cost of premiums.

However, your probably right than not all of them were without insurance, some of them were probably under insured as well.

For those who made that proposal, the mandate cost for individuals would be according to a person's financial status so to speak. Not sure if there is a political will for a mandate or if the sheer bureaucracy involved would make a mandate unfeasible. I don't really know either way. I do know something has to be done regardless of those saying everything is fine in our health care system in our country.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 10:28 am
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck, I'm usually in agreement with your opinions, but I disagree with you on this topic on health insurance. The cost of health insurance escalates because those without insurance can still go to our hospital emergency rooms to get treatment without paying. Those with insurance covers those costs. That's a federal mandate that hospitals must comply with.

As health insurance costs escalate, it takes over more of our GDP while less people are covered through their companies or individual coverage. It's estimated that some 25 million with insurance have inadequate insurance, so in reality about 71 million Americans live without good health insurance.

All this while our country spends the most on health care, and the cost continues to escalate upwards. This trend cannot be sustained, because companies that provides health insurance must include that cost into their products and services, and they become less competitive in the world marketplace. Individuals can't afford to buy health insurance, because it now costs them about 25% of their income.

Most developed countries have universal health care, and the majority under their plans are happy with them. Nobody goes bankrupt because a family member requires costly health care.

Insurance companies are not known to be very compassionate about what they pay for; they must watch cost to provide for the high salaries of their CEOs, officers, and added administrative costs of each claim made by the insured. They also have lifetime limits.

ObamaCare will not be perfect, but it will be a good start in getting most Americans insured with a health plan. They can tweak it as they get more experience with the plan they implement, and improve upon it.

I can identify many negatives about the plan being devised by congress, but I'll leave that for the negatives and lies being spread by the conservatives and insurance companies.

A revamp is necessary, because doing nothing is not an option.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 10:28 am
@mysteryman,
Unlike you, the vast majority of people cannot, on their own, pay for the treatment of catastrophic illnesses. For example, were you to require a liver transplant, the cost, including attendant ones, would be several hundred thousand dollars. Under your system, those people would be allowed to die (without a death panel ruling). If society provides charity treatment, the rest of us will pay more in premiums to cover this. Thus, everyone should be required to have the insurance.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 11:50 am
@revel,
revel wrote:

You are fortunate that either you have a very nice living or you haven't had really high maintenance health problems which exceeded your income or financial situation.

I was fortunate that we are all relatively healthy and that we had doctors nice enough to put us on a payment plan and discount our bill when we asked. Not all will do that.

But I'm not making an argument against universal coverage -- I'm for that. I'm just not for accomplishing it through private health insurance.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Aug, 2009 11:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
What part of my opinion do you specifically disagree with, ci? I'm arguing against individual mandates to purchase private health insurance, not universal health care (which I'm on record in this thread as supporting).
 

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