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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 10:53 am
@cicerone imposter,
Au contraire, most Americans are not against universal health care. A small and noisy minority are against Obama and any and everything that he tries to do. A somewhat larger minority are against want to attain universal health care through private insurance, but still support universal health care. And a majority of Americans support a public option -- government provided insurance or single payer.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 10:10 pm
@FreeDuck,
Everyone has access to health care as it is right now, though they have to pay for it - or, if they are poor or old, get assistance through Medicaid or Medicare

So what then do you mean by "Universal health care " ? Coverage by a health care insurer? A very large fraction of the uninsured are employed young people who choose not to participate in available company plans simply to avoid the cost. There are others of limited means or with chronic diseases who may not be able to get affordable insurance, but who don't qualify for Medicaid.

It would be a fairly simple matter to create subsidies for a basic health care plan for them and, through it, require that everyone participate in either that plan or another of their own choosing. In keeping with this government could also take actions to increase the supply of general practicioners to lower the average cost of basic care. This could include subsidies for medical education and limitations on the tort liability that drives up the cost of liability insurance for doctors.

I don't think that such a program would be very controversial. Unfortunately that isn't the program our Congress is considering. They propose to write the rules for access to health care and the operations of health care providers for everyone. Moreover a core element of the Democrat party seeks the creation of a government -managed plan, together with economic taxes and disincentives for private plans that would likely lead to the demise of most of them and put nearly everyone under the government plan operating under the enlightened management of the gang who created cash for clunkers, Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.

No thanks.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 10:32 pm
@georgeob1,
I'll sleep better tonight, G, knowing that you think everyone down here has it peachy, and that the Emergency room can't turn me away.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 11:09 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Everyone has access to health care as it is right now, though they have to pay for it - or, if they are poor or old, get assistance through Medicaid or Medicare

Everyone has access to emergency health care right now. For everything else, money is access. If you do not have the money, you will not go for care. The uninsured, btw, pay full price for their care, not the insurance negotiated 50% (or less), and medical bills are still the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US.

Quote:
So what then do you mean by "Universal health care " ? Coverage by a health care insurer? A very large fraction of the uninsured are employed young people who choose not to participate in available company plans simply to avoid the cost. There are others of limited means or with chronic diseases who may not be able to get affordable insurance, but who don't qualify for Medicaid.

I mean universal basic health care that will not bankrupt you. Employer based health care is just fine if you work for a large company and can keep your job. For the rest of us it can leave much to be desired. And about those people who choose not to be covered -- it probably depends on the state but where I live you cannot opt out of employer sponsored care without providing proof of other coverage. I find it hard to believe that young people, who have the cheapest premiums (cheap enough to often be fully paid by the employer contribution) are opting out in droves. I think it is more likely that entrepreneurs, small businesses, the unemployed, and the uninsurable make up the vast amount of our uninsured.

Quote:
It would be a fairly simple matter to create subsidies for a basic health care plan for them and, through it, require that everyone participate in either that plan or another of their own choosing.

Tell me more about this basic plan -- sounds suspiciously like a public option. Unless you are saying the subsidies would go towards any private plan of a persons choosing, in which case you still have the problem of people with pre-existing conditions.

Quote:
I don't think that such a program would be very controversial. Unfortunately that isn't the program our Congress is considering.

To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, there are three plans under consideration. But I disagree -- I think any program will be controversial if it affects the bottom line or the behavior of insurance companies. The lobby will make sure of it with their massive misinformation campaign.

Quote:
They propose to write the rules for access to health care and the operations of health care providers for everyone. Moreover a core element of the Democrat party seeks the creation of a government -managed plan, together with economic taxes and disincentives for private plans that would likely lead to the demise of most of them and put nearly everyone under the government plan operating under the enlightened management of the gang who created cash for clunkers, Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.

No thanks.

Not sure if I agree with your conclusions. I think that whenever we do truly awful things through the government it is usually when we try to blend public service with private industry. We end up with the worst of both worlds, so to that point I agree that the possibilities of screwing this thing up are immense. However, it cannot keep going the way it is now. Cost of both care and insurance are not coming down but continue to rise without bound. It is already unaffordable for most people, myself included (but I have no choice), and not portable (COBRA notwithstanding). Personally, I like the plan that one senator introduced (I will have to look him up now) but got no support -- offering every citizen the federal employee benefits choices.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 11:42 am
@FreeDuck,
It is true that the costs of health care are rising fast, but that is not simply a result of price gouging by insurance companies and medical practitioners. There are other very significant factors involved.

In the first place today's cost of 1950s level medical care - clinical screening; treatment of infectuous diseases and external injuries; etc. has risen more or less with the average inflation of the intervening years ( a six fold increase) while average family incomes have risen a good deal faster. The essential fact is that medical care has itself expanded very considerably. New technologies for early diagnosis and treatment are being deployed with unprecedented speed (and most of that innovation is occurring here - not in countries with more socialized systems). New technologies. like new drugs, are very expensive at first, but as they become more widespread and as competition spreads, the costs come down. Laser surgery to correct vision problems is now about 1/3rd its cost in the early 1990s when it was introduced - adjusted for inflation that is about 1/5th the 1994 cost.

The stranglehold of brueaucrat management in these areas is likely to kill (or badly injure) the goose that lays the golden eggs for new technologies and treatments.

I agree that other factors, ranging from the breakdown of family structures and the rise of single parent families, and the market distortions attendant to the growth of state regulated insurance programs, have seriously raised the cost of care for some segments of the population. (The latter factor, incidently, was significant exacerbated by the health care policies of the Clinton Administrations which encouraged the growth of insurance carriers & HMOs through every means available to them - all in the name of increasing the availability of affordable health care.) So a large slice of today's problem is a result of unrelated discretionary social behaviors and previous attempts by government to solve the problem itself.

My observations about young people voluntarily foregoing company provided health care come from both statistics I have read and my direct observations in my own company (which operates in about 40 states). The phenomenon is real and it is significant. For many it is a good economic bet. (BTW our health care insurers - we have four options - are all required to accept and treat any employee who applies, regardless of preexisting conditions for them or their dependents.)

I agree that significant improvements in competitiveness can be achieved by ending state regulation of insurance carriers & HMOs and doing so on a national basis. This would increase competition, enabling nationwide competition by current local carriers - something that we have seen has significantly reduced costs for telephone service and other commodities. I wouldn't object to the creation of a partly government subsidized, privately operated basic HMO type plan that covered basic services, provided that participation in it was voluntary.

The natural human factors of self selection (out of unsurance by the young and healthy and in it by the aged and infirmed) complicate any government-mandated scheme. Does government really have the power to compell individuals to buy health care insurance?? States routinely require automobile liability insurance - as a condition of getting a license to own and operate a vehicle. However, what gives the Federal government the power to require the purchase of health insurance??



Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 12:22 pm
Health insurance carries a painful cost

Quote:
The insurance business was very good to Reynaldo Hernandez.

Reynaldo Hernandez is a retired insurance agent who says rising medical costs are causing him pain.

"I loved the business because it rewarded you for your effort. ... I liked the fact that selling insurance was helping people avoid financial loss," the California man says.

He sold insurance in the rural San Diego County town of Ramona for 35 years and retired eight years ago. Since then, he has grown increasingly angry at the business he represented.

And the industry he gave so much to is about to ruin him financially.

"Over the years of my career, I saw the coverage get more expensive, but you got less," says Hernandez.

In 2007, Hernandez, 65, and his wife Janet, 62, spent more than $15,000 on insurance premiums. Add a little more than $8,200 for co-payments and medicine, and Hernandez says they paid about $24, 000 in medical costs that year.

"It took a huge chunk of our income. ... over 25 percent that year."

So the man who sold insurance to so many people had to do without.


This former insurance agent (now retired) has an annual income that exceeds $90,000. Yet, he cannot afford healthcare insurance due to skyrocketing costs. If HE can't afford it, what about families trying to survive on minimum wages?



Quote:
"I never thought, in my entire life, that I would ever get to the point that I, as an insurance agent, would ... have problems paying for medical insurance," he says.

"Health insurance for me has been so important. I would never dream of going without.

"Because we could no longer afford that kind of cost, we did the unthinkable. We dropped our insurance," says Hernandez. Watch the family's plight »

"It's a little scary not to ... go to the doctor when you think 'I should have his checked,' " says Janet Hernandez, Reynaldo's wife of 43 years.

"I didn't have proper coverage to be able to go to the doctor and get checked. Knowing that you could lose everything if something happened, that was scary."

Janet Hernandez knows quite a bit about the insurance industry, too. She worked with her husband as an agent for 10 years.

The Hernandezes now have medical insurance. Reynaldo has Medicare, the federal insurance program for senior citizens. But Janet is three years from qualifying for that program.

Until then, they have purchased a private policy to cover medical expenses.

But that policy is expensive.

"We pay about ... $850 a month on my insurance and co-pays on prescriptions and doctor visits," says Janet. "And still today, with ... higher deductibles every year ... still the cost keeps going up, up, up."

"At the rate it is going up... I may not be able to keep her covered until she turns 65," adds Reynaldo.

Those added costs have put a pinch on their retirement.

Although retired, Reynaldo is still a licensed insurance agent. "I'm thinking about trying to go back to work full time so that I can maybe get a group plan to cover my wife," he says.

"We had planned so many years for our retirement and to be able to do things, and travel," says Janet. " We've cut way back on most of our expenses and we just don't do the things we used to do because of the costs."

"Every day I'm looking at our checking account and our saving account and I've become obsessed with it because I see that we don't seem to have it under control," says Reynaldo. "And it's very scary. I shouldn't have to live in fear about our medical expenses."

"I feel very nervous and uneasy about that, and I shouldn't be. I shouldn't have to feel that way in my senior years. I should be able to feel secure."


If you live long enough to qualify for Medicare, there might be hope for you.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 12:37 pm
'Romney care' touted as a model for national health care reform

Quote:
If Washington wants health care reform with bipartisan support, experts say consider what former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney accomplished as governor in Democratic Massachusetts.

Mitt Romney says the president must have bipartisanship in order to get quality health care reform.

"You don't have to have a public option," Romney said. "You don't have to have the government getting into the insurance business to make it work."


I wonder how healthcare "reform" WITHOUT a public option is working in Massachusetts. Lets see:


Quote:
Unlike Democratic proposals that would give Americans the choice of joining a government-run health care plan, Massachusetts has no public option. Instead, people in the state are required to buy private insurance, and the poor get subsidies.


Oh. I see. Healthcare "reform" is an insurance industry grab. Citizens are REQUIRED by law to purchase a product from a PRIVATE Business without any guarantee that the PRIVATE Business will do anything to hold down costs. How nice for private business.

Quote:
Analysts say "Romney care" is basically "Obama care" minus the public option.


"Romney care" is a PRIVATE insurance industry GRAB YOUR MONEY plan.


Quote:
The Massachusetts model, however, does have its problems. Experts say it doesn't control rising health care costs -- something Romney insisted must be tackled on a national level.


There we go. There's the problem with the "Romney care" plan. It doesn't solve the problem that begs for a solution in the first place. It merely requires citizens to purchase a product from the insurance industry--something the insurance industry will LOVE--but does absolutely nothing to control rising health care costs.

Perhaps that's WHY we need a PUBLIC OPTION at the NATIONAL level? So that we the people have a program that is large enough to BARGAIN with the healthcare industry and bring down the costs? To compete with private industry and control rising healthcare costs?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 12:50 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Perhaps that's WHY we need a PUBLIC OPTION at the NATIONAL level? So that we the people have a program that is large enough to BARGAIN with the healthcare industry and bring down the costs? To compete with private industry and control rising healthcare costs?


What a nonsensical proposition !

The Federal government is very likely the most inept bargainer (and manager) there is. It routinely pays more for the goods and services it uses than its private sector counterparts. This is simply the result of the rule-bound bureaucratic methods it inevitably uses. Even the smartest and most energetic of bureaucrats (not a particularly smart or active tribe) is routinely outwitted by providers motivated by self-interest and greed. Worse such power in the hands of government officials inevitably turns into money and corruption.

We are told there is a huge potential market out there for health care services that is not currently being met. The best way to fill that gap is through actions to increase the supply of service providers and to eliminate local limitations to competition (i.e. national vs. state regulation of insurance providers). The worst thing we can do would be to brueaucratize the whole thing through a government operated or managed solution.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 12:50 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The natural human factors of self selection (out of unsurance by the young and healthy and in it by the aged and infirmed) complicate any government-mandated scheme. Does government really have the power to compell individuals to buy health care insurance?? States routinely require automobile liability insurance - as a condition of getting a license to own and operate a vehicle. However, what gives the Federal government the power to require the purchase of health insurance??

I actually agree with you about mandates. The only reason why they become necessary is because we're trying to provide a universal social service through private enterprise, which requires that everyone be in the pool and that everyone pays something. To me, if everyone has to pay so that everyone can have a benefit, that sounds like something better served by a tax rather than arcane mandates that people buy private insurance, which can vary in cost and benefit on the whim of private for-profit companies. I would prefer that all of the insurance premiums I have paid over the years been a tax for health insurance that would continue to be available to me even when I am no longer employed, or become self-employed. I don't object to health care being provided by state taxes and state services rather than the federal government, but I think mandates are just an ugly side effect of trying to have our cake and eat it too.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 03:34 pm
Why hasnt the President passed his plan?

After all, the dems control DC.
They control the WH and both sides of congress.

They blame the "town halls" and they blame the repubs, yet they cant even get all of their own members to support a bill.

I wonder what the real reason the dems cant pass the bill is, and why do they want repubs to support them in a "bipartisan" bill.
The dems have the votes to pass the bill, without repub support.

Are they waiting for repubs to support them so they dont get all of the blame if the bill is flawed?
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 03:39 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Why hasnt the President passed his plan?

A. Because none of the plans under consideration are his and B. because congress on recess.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 03:41 pm
@FreeDuck,
They could have already passed it, if they wanted.

But, that still doesnt explain the WHY.
The dems control congress.
They dont need repub support, or the support of the people.
If they really wanted to pass the bill, they already would have.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 03:55 pm
@mysteryman,
Dems don't vote in lockstep as do the Reps. When Bush was in office, there was virtually no deviation from the Bush position. (Privatizing social security was the exception that proved the rule.)

There are numerous blue-dog Dems who would prevent a filibuster-proof bill. Further, the Dems cannot depend on Kennedy and Byrd, who are very ill.

Also, the Reps have been relentless in their lying about what might be in a health reform bill, and have succeeded in getting a large percentage of the public to believe in those lies.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 03:57 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

They could have already passed it, if they wanted.

But, that still doesnt explain the WHY.
The dems control congress.
They dont need repub support, or the support of the people.
If they really wanted to pass the bill, they already would have.

That's probably true, but the fact remains that the Democrats themselves are divided on the best way to tackle the problem. Many still want a single payer system, others prefer something along the lines of what george proposes. Once they can agree amongst themselves then they can pass it without the Republicans and they will probably have to, but they're not there yet.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 04:47 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:


Everyone has access to emergency health care right now. For everything else, money is access. If you do not have the money, you will not go for care. The uninsured, btw, pay full price for their care, not the insurance negotiated 50% (or less), and medical bills are still the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US.


I wonder who is subsidizing who's care in that situation. Are the uninsured subsidizing the insurance companies, or are the insurance companies paying enough to cover the uninsured who cannot or will not pay, and that includes emergency room treatment. In other words, what could we expect hospital bills to be if everyone paid enough to cover costs + fair profit?

That does argue for some kind of universal coverage, but I still do not believe congress has really considered how the system is going to be run, and who will be paying for what. If they have considered all consequences, they have failed to make it clear to more people than just me.[/quote]

Quote:
I find it hard to believe that young people, who have the cheapest premiums (cheap enough to often be fully paid by the employer contribution) are opting out in droves. I think it is more likely that entrepreneurs, small businesses, the unemployed, and the uninsurable make up the vast amount of our uninsured.


Believe it. I've seen this first hand in a company that had only about 30% acceptance of coverage. You are missing a couple of points here. First, young, healthy people would have the lowest premiums if they were buying private insurance. They are not. The company for which I was doing payroll had two rates. Single and Family. They young got no benefit for being young, and those with chronic health conditions did not pay extra. I think this is called adverse selection. Second, premiums for young, healthy people can not be fully paid by employer contribution, while others are paying a specific percentage of the premium. Don't ask me to furnish the specific law, but that's not something an employer can do.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 05:20 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

A. Because none of the plans under consideration are his and B. because congress on recess.


If none of the plans being pushed by the Democrats in the House and the Senate "are his" , then what the hell has he been talking about and supporting so incessantly??? President Obama doesn't hesitate to expound at great and endless length - and at a very elevated and abstract level - about universal access to health care; the elimination of "unnecessary" health services; huge savings that will be reaped from Medicare (but oddly not Medicaid); the wonderful new efficiencies government (a "health czar"???) will bring to the delivery of health care - all while assuring listeners that there will be no increase in the deficit; that they can keep their present health care if they like it and will see no interference by the government in their relations with medical providers, etc. etc. If that doesn't make it his, I don't know what does. Worse for the president is the fact that his disparate and often vague assurances cannot be put into any clear, coherent whole. A fast-growing segment of the public has come to the realization that they are being conned.

Worse still for the president are the accumulating contradictions to his repeated assurances unfolding from the examination of the specific proposals working their way through the Congress.

It seems clear that the President has adopted a public hands off tactic with respect to the legislation simply to avoid a repeat of the debacle that confronted Clinton in 1993. The facts, that he has made a central goal of passing this legislation and that his key advisors including the esteemed Rham Emanuel are actively and continuously working with the legislative framers of the various bills in the Congress, only make him look like a liar and a fool.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 05:27 pm
Quote:
Senator Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut on Sunday urged the Obama administration to consider postponing overhauling the health care system and instead work on smaller chunks of the issue until the economy improves.


“I’m afraid we’ve got to think about putting a lot of that off until the economy’s out of recession,” Mr. Lieberman said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “There’s no reason we have to do it all now, but we do have to get started. And I think the place to start is cost health delivery reform and insurance market reforms.”

Mr. Lieberman’s comments could further complicate Democratic efforts to get a health care overhaul passed in Congress. They had been depending on the independent senator to support their efforts, even though he often aligns with Republicans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24talkshows.html?hp

I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you, that when push comes to shove Lieberman is not behind the health care reform team. The value of him putting a D behind his name is nil, exactly as I predicted it would be.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 07:00 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

If none of the plans being pushed by the Democrats in the House and the Senate "are his" , then what the hell has he been talking about and supporting so incessantly??? President Obama doesn't hesitate to expound at great and endless length - and at a very elevated and abstract level - about universal access to health care; the elimination of "unnecessary" health services; huge savings that will be reaped from Medicare (but oddly not Medicaid); the wonderful new efficiencies government (a "health czar"???) will bring to the delivery of health care - all while assuring listeners that there will be no increase in the deficit; that they can keep their present health care if they like it and will see no interference by the government in their relations with medical providers, etc. etc. If that doesn't make it his, I don't know what does. Worse for the president is the fact that his disparate and often vague assurances cannot be put into any clear, coherent whole. A fast-growing segment of the public has come to the realization that they are being conned.

That's exactly what I mean. The abstract ideas are his -- well, he didn't come up with them, but you know what I mean. But he left the details to congress. That's what I mean by they aren't his plans. Obviously he supports his abstract ideals and as long as congress passes something close to that, he will sign it. But that doesn't make these his plans.

Quote:
It seems clear that the President has adopted a public hands off tactic with respect to the legislation simply to avoid a repeat of the debacle that confronted Clinton in 1993.

Correct.

Quote:
The facts, that he has made a central goal of passing this legislation and that his key advisors including the esteemed Rham Emanuel are actively and continuously working with the legislative framers of the various bills in the Congress, only make him look like a liar and a fool.

Maybe so. But I don't know how I would do it in his shoes. Maybe I would have started out demanding a single payer system so that there was less room to maneuver, but I'm not sure it matters. How would you have approached it?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 07:06 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Quote:
I find it hard to believe that young people, who have the cheapest premiums (cheap enough to often be fully paid by the employer contribution) are opting out in droves. I think it is more likely that entrepreneurs, small businesses, the unemployed, and the uninsurable make up the vast amount of our uninsured.


Believe it. I've seen this first hand in a company that had only about 30% acceptance of coverage. You are missing a couple of points here. First, young, healthy people would have the lowest premiums if they were buying private insurance. They are not. The company for which I was doing payroll had two rates. Single and Family. They young got no benefit for being young, and those with chronic health conditions did not pay extra. I think this is called adverse selection. Second, premiums for young, healthy people can not be fully paid by employer contribution, while others are paying a specific percentage of the premium. Don't ask me to furnish the specific law, but that's not something an employer can do.


Ok, you and george have convinced me. I just remember back in the day when I paid something like $38 pre-tax every two weeks for basic health insurance, and then some years later when I was shocked that I had to pay $6000 a year for a family policy after I had my second child. That was double what we paid before she was born with one other child. It seemed like a no-brainer when I was young to take that insurance.

So the young folks who are opting out of employer coverage, are they buying private plans or just going without?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 09:03 pm
@FreeDuck,
I had a casual survey done of our employees who declined to sign up for company paid health care and found that about 1/3rd of them had (presumably) cheaper coverage under a spouse's plan as dependents, and the rest were either uninsured or declined to say. We offer multiple health plans including HMOs and two distinct insurance plans. The employee cost for the top end plan is about $1,800/year with dependents. A similar dental plan costs the employee another $950/year. Like most companies, we are, in effect, self insured since our carrier premiums each quarter are the previous quarter's claims plus an administrative fee. For the health plan the company pays about 80% of the cost: the employee 20%.

I suppose it sounds expensive. However recognize that the all up cost of ownership of an automobile is about $7,000/year. Do we need government managed or subsidized automobiles???

The key point here is the statistics so often quoted by Democrats are themselves unreliable because so many families have multiple wage earners and because they fail to consider voluntary adverse selection.
 

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