IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@Cycloptichorn,

I believe the president's public support on this measure has fallen considerably. Worse for him the gaps and contradictions between his elevated rhetoric and the concrete actions (so far) taken by his deputies and his Democrat allies in the Congress have been exposed for what they are. As a result the elevated position he once enjoyed in the public mind is badly damaged. In addition I believe that the public has become aroused by the prospect of prolongued and growing government deficits arising from the unrestrained actions of the far left in our Congress. Finally, the political opposition has emerged from its post election disarray and is coalescing around its opposition to the emerging specific intentions of the present government. How this will all play out is something I cannot predict.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I believe the president's public support on this measure has fallen considerably. Worse for him the gaps and contradictions between his elevated rhetoric and the concrete actions (so far) taken by his deputies and his Democrat allies in the Congress have been exposed for what they are. As a result the elevated position he once enjoyed in the public mind is badly damaged. In addition I believe that the public has become aroused by the prospect of prolongued and growing government deficits arising from the unrestrained actions of the far left in our Congress. Finally, the political opposition has emerged from its post election disarray and is coalescing around its opposition to the emerging specific intentions of the present government. How this will all play out is something I cannot predict.

Well, we all know it's easier to be against something than for it; Republicans love this position, as it allows them to use scurrilous lies and mis-representations to attack the plans of the Dems with no responsibility to provide any workable solutions of their own. Half the Republican party insists that there is no need for a solution...

So, this 'coalescing' you see is really like a group of drunk jocks egging each other on to do and say dumber and dumber things. And it accomplishes it's desired effect: the waters are muddied sufficiently, and the mouth-breathers angered by the lies, to make the issue seem in doubt. So far the Republicans are doing great on this. But, does this translate to actual organization or leadership? I think not.

The prez' support on this measure has fallen, in large part b/c democrats are disgusted with the waffling of members of our own party, such as Baucus, who are deeply indebted to the insurance industry, and Obama has so far failed to lay down the law to these guys.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

I would also point out that, as much as Obama and the Dems in Congress have slipped in the polls, the Republicans have not established themselves as a trustworthy party on decisions relating to the future of the country -

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/haters.jpg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_081909.html?sid=ST2009082100003

So, even while there is public disagreement with the Dems, they certainly aren't looking to your team for the answers.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

I have the impression you are indulging in a bit of denial.

Republicans and libertarians always have the disadvantage, when engaged with "progressives" who advocate government action to deal with social and economic problems, of being "against' specific proposals. Freedom and individual initiative & responsibility are hallmarks of this country, and they are worth defending.

Your unkind characterizations of the Administration's opponents, ... "drunk jocks egging each other on to do and say dumber and dumber things" ... is not well suited to enable you to deal constructively with a political challenge.

It is also bemusing to note that you interpret the fall in the president's public support is the result of his failure to follow the lead of the left wing zealots who created this mess.

Underestimating the opposition and doubling down on bad bets are not good ways to win serious struggles.

By the way your own data above shows that support for the Republicans has held steady in the last few months while that for the Democrats & the president have continued to fall.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I have the impression you are indulging in a bit of denial.

Republicans and libertarians always have the disadvantage, when engaged with "progressives" who advocate government action to deal with social and economic problems, of being "against' specific proposals. Freedom and individual initiative & responsibility are hallmarks of this country, and they are worth defending.

Republicans were for plenty of proposals when they were running the place from 2001-2006. Very much so, in fact. So, I don't agree that this is true.

Quote:

Your unkind characterizations of the Administration's opponents, ... "drunk jocks egging each other on to do and say dumber and dumber things" ... is not well suited to enable you to deal constructively with a political challenge.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. But yeah, that's pretty much the attitude and environment your side has engendered re: health care; it's like a competition to see who can tell the scariest lie, who can rile people up the most against Obama, and who can make the most outrageous statements.

Quote:

It is also bemusing to note that you interpret the fall in the president's public support is the result of his failure to follow the lead of the left wing zealots who created this mess.

It's only bemusing if you didn't bother to do any research into the polls, George, and look at the groups who the president has fallen with. True, he has fallen amongst independents; but it is drops amongst the Liberal base have really caused his numbers to fall into the low 50's. It isn't drops amongst Republicans, for sure; they are already more than 90% against him to begin with. Simultaneously, most Liberals support the president's plan and the public option. It is entirely likely that frustration with the process is responsible for drops amongst Liberals and Independents; the plan certainly hasn't changed in the last several months.

Please try to do some research; I know it's asking a lot, but it will help you avoid making statements such as this.

Quote:

Underestimating the opposition and doubling down on bad bets are not good ways to win serious struggles.

By the way your own data above shows that support for the Republicans has held steady in the last few months while that for the Democrats & the president have continued to fall.

Yeah, well, I'm sure you'll agree, that it's easy to hold steady when your ratings are in the 20% range, George. They hardly deserve an award for continuing not to be trusted by 70-80% of our country, Laughing

Too funny that you would make that point, really. I mean, does the Republican party want a cookie for maintaining an approval rating above zero?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Believe what comforts you.

0 Replies

And now for something completely different:
American health care on 4 napkins.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

And if Obama doesnt sign such a bill?
What are you going to say then?

Will you deny predicting that he would?
Will you look for excuses as to why he didnt?

2 Replies

@mysteryman,

Will you cry mournfully in your beer?
Will you write poetry and grow a beard?
Will you admit that you have a penchant for buggery?

1 Reply

@FreeDuck,

Quote:

Will you cry mournfully in your beer?

I dont drink, so your out of luck there.

Quote:

Will you write poetry and grow a beard?

No to both questions, sorry.

Quote:

Will you admit that you have a penchant for buggery?

Will you?

But since I wasnt the person making the prediction, what I would do is unimportant.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

Sorry, I thought it was a team poetry exercise.

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

And if Obama doesnt sign such a bill?
What are you going to say then?

Will you deny predicting that he would?
Will you look for excuses as to why he didnt?

Well, he can't sign a bill unless Congress presents him one. But, as the leader of the Democratic party, it will be his failure and I will be mightily disappointed and disillusioned. We will never get a better chance to affect the changes to our health-care system which are necessary to get the thuggish boots of for-profit insurance off of all of our necks, and if the Dems blow it, I will be one hot potato.

I will not, however, claim that I never predicted this would happen. What would be the point?

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

which are necessary to get the thuggish boots of for-profit insurance off of all of our necks,

Couldnt you say the same thing about car insurance, homeowners insurance, life insurance, and every other type of insurance?

Why arent you and the left complaining about them?

2 Replies

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
which are necessary to get the thuggish boots of for-profit insurance off of all of our necks,

Couldnt you say the same thing about car insurance, homeowners insurance, life insurance, and every other type of insurance?

No, I couldn't; because those other types of insurance do not operate in the same fashion as health insurance does.

Quote:

Why arent you and the left complaining about them?

Probably because the reforms which were necessary in order to allow those insurances to operate in a tolerable fashion have already been achieved. They also only touch the lives of some: I have no homeowners insurance or car insurance, b/c I own neither a home nor a car. However, we ALL have health issues to deal with and EVERYONE needs health insurance sooner or later.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

The world is full of people Cyclo who's fondest hopes have been disappointed.

You really ought to consider the possibilty that you have deployed your arguments in an ineffective manner.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

The world is full of people Cyclo who's fondest hopes have been disappointed.

You really ought to consider the possibilty that you have deployed your arguments in an ineffective manner.

When you say "you have deployed," do you mean 'the Democrats?' If so, I have not only considered this possibility, I consider that to be a large probability.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

Quote:

Why arent you and the left complaining about them?

Do you really need that explaining to you mm? Maybe ignoring explanations has resulted in you needing to ask questions like that.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

When you say "you have deployed," do you mean 'the Democrats?' If so, I have not only considered this possibility, I consider that to be a large probability.

No. I meant you.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
When you say "you have deployed," do you mean 'the Democrats?' If so, I have not only considered this possibility, I consider that to be a large probability.

No. I meant you.

I wasn't aware that the arguments I am putting forth were the determinative ones, when it comes to whether or not America passes health care reform. I'm interested to hear what the correct arguments are, tho.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

The biggest problem is the misinformation that have permeated the info line about health care. That's the reason why, and the only reason, that most Americans are against universal health care.

1 Reply

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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