65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 01:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You are quibbling.

No one accused you of saying the government "cannot go broke". You did, however say that the Social security fund "cannot go bankrupt". I agreed with you on that proposition, and even extended it to the government as a whole.

However, governments and economiescan - and do - collapse -- that is cease functioning. Runaway inflation and capital flight , resulting from excess government deficits is one of the classical causes and preludes. The prescription you are offering almost certainly would lead to that. Hardly a chance worth taking in view of the consequences.

It is you who are trying to evade the issues you raised and distract the conversation from your own foolish statements.

It is true as you said that Republicans do frequently express concern about the ill effects of higher tax rates on everyone. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. However, for you to use this to imply that high taxes NEVER have worse adverse effects on the general economic activity of everyone is pure nonsense.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 02:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
What you actually wrote was
Quote:
We pay less than 70% of our bills right now, let alone our SS bills 32 years from now; and our government is neither bankrupt nor collapsing.


It's bankrupt when they spend much more than they take in; that's capitalism theory.

It's on the way to collapsing when future revenue streams continues to decrease, and more money is printed up to spend. That money has to be paid back with interest.

If too much money gets printed and circulated with nothing backing it, it becomes worthless.

That's Economics 101.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 02:06 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The prescription you are offering almost certainly would lead to that. Hardly a chance worth taking in view of the consequences.


What prescription did I offer? I recommended raising SS taxes and lowering payouts - I'm not sure what part of that will lead to great government deficits and the collapse of our system.

Quote:
You did, however say that the Social security fund "cannot go bankrupt".


Once again, please quote my actual arguments; I think if you read carefully, I didn't say that SS 'cannot' go bankrupt. I merely stated that in 2042, it will not be bankrupt - at least, not by the standards which we judge government programs to be 'bankrupt.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 02:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

What you actually wrote was
Quote:
We pay less than 70% of our bills right now, let alone our SS bills 32 years from now; and our government is neither bankrupt nor collapsing.


It's bankrupt when they spend much more than they take in; that's capitalism theory.


Well, our government has spent more than it has taken in, in something like 38 out of the last 40 years. Unless you are arguing that the US is currently bankrupt, and has been bankrupt for my entire lifetime, I'm not sure the correct term is being used here.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 03:03 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I can live with this definition of government insolvency from Wiki.
Quote:
Government debt

Although the terms bankrupt and insolvent are often used in reference to governments or government obligations, a government cannot be insolvent in the normal sense of the word. Generally, a government's debt is not secured by the assets of the government, but by its ability to levy taxes. By the standard definition, all governments would be in a state of insolvency unless they had assets equal to the debt they owed. If, for any reason, a government cannot meet its interest obligation, it is technically not insolvent but is "in default". As governments are sovereign entities, persons who hold debt of the government cannot seize the assets of the government to re-pay the debt. However, in most cases, debt in default is refinanced by further borrowing or monetized by issuing more currency (which typically results in inflation and may result in hyperinflation).


When the citizens of any country are faced with inflation or hyperinflation from the issuance of more currency without any backup for it (assets), most will result in their bankruptcy. Government debt affects everybody sooner or later.

Another thing: just because our government may have had more debt years than revenue years, history is a dangerous basis to continue on the same path. The world economy demands that countries limit their government debt that has the potential of payback within a reasonable period of time. No trading partner is going to continue receiving US dollars that continues to lose its value.

During a period of world economic crisis, one country cannot keep creating more of its own currency to keep purchasing goods and services, because they will realize that the dollars being circulated becomes worthless at some point in time.

Economics 101.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 08:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
A small business owner on tv just now said she doesn't want Obama's health plan, because a) it only makes the insurance companies rich, and b) she has a customer in the UK with universal health care, but their income tax is 78%.

This is the kind of bull **** that gets spread around on the tv talk shows that those against the health plan will repeat like parrots without checking out the facts. The UK's income tax rate is not 78%. Where do these people come from? Mars?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 08:32 pm


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 08:36 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/opinion/16obama.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

Quote:
August 16, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
Why We Need Health Care Reform
By BARACK OBAMA


OUR nation is now engaged in a great debate about the future of health care in America. And over the past few weeks, much of the media attention has been focused on the loudest voices. What we haven’t heard are the voices of the millions upon millions of Americans who quietly struggle every day with a system that often works better for the health-insurance companies than it does for them.

These are people like Lori Hitchcock, whom I met in New Hampshire last week. Lori is currently self-employed and trying to start a business, but because she has hepatitis C, she cannot find an insurance company that will cover her. Another woman testified that an insurance company would not cover illnesses related to her internal organs because of an accident she had when she was 5 years old. A man lost his health coverage in the middle of chemotherapy because the insurance company discovered that he had gallstones, which he hadn’t known about when he applied for his policy. Because his treatment was delayed, he died.

I hear more and more stories like these every single day, and it is why we are acting so urgently to pass health-insurance reform this year. I don’t have to explain to the nearly 46 million Americans who don’t have health insurance how important this is. But it’s just as important for Americans who do have health insurance.

There are four main ways the reform we’re proposing will provide more stability and security to every American.

First, if you don’t have health insurance, you will have a choice of high-quality, affordable coverage for yourself and your family " coverage that will stay with you whether you move, change your job or lose your job.

Second, reform will finally bring skyrocketing health care costs under control, which will mean real savings for families, businesses and our government. We’ll cut hundreds of billions of dollars in waste and inefficiency in federal health programs like Medicare and Medicaid and in unwarranted subsidies to insurance companies that do nothing to improve care and everything to improve their profits.

Third, by making Medicare more efficient, we’ll be able to ensure that more tax dollars go directly to caring for seniors instead of enriching insurance companies. This will not only help provide today’s seniors with the benefits they’ve been promised; it will also ensure the long-term health of Medicare for tomorrow’s seniors. And our reforms will also reduce the amount our seniors pay for their prescription drugs.

Lastly, reform will provide every American with some basic consumer protections that will finally hold insurance companies accountable. A 2007 national survey actually shows that insurance companies discriminated against more than 12 million Americans in the previous three years because they had a pre-existing illness or condition. The companies either refused to cover the person, refused to cover a specific illness or condition or charged a higher premium.

We will put an end to these practices. Our reform will prohibit insurance companies from denying coverage because of your medical history. Nor will they be allowed to drop your coverage if you get sick. They will not be able to water down your coverage when you need it most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or in a lifetime. And we will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses. No one in America should go broke because they get sick.

Most important, we will require insurance companies to cover routine checkups, preventive care and screening tests like mammograms and colonoscopies. There’s no reason that we shouldn’t be catching diseases like breast cancer and prostate cancer on the front end. It makes sense, it saves lives and it can also save money.

This is what reform is about. If you don’t have health insurance, you will finally have quality, affordable options once we pass reform. If you have health insurance, we will make sure that no insurance company or government bureaucrat gets between you and the care you need. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan. You will not be waiting in any lines. This is not about putting the government in charge of your health insurance. I don’t believe anyone should be in charge of your health care decisions but you and your doctor " not government bureaucrats, not insurance companies.

The long and vigorous debate about health care that’s been taking place over the past few months is a good thing. It’s what America’s all about.

But let’s make sure that we talk with one another, and not over one another. We are bound to disagree, but let’s disagree over issues that are real, and not wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that anyone has actually proposed. This is a complicated and critical issue, and it deserves a serious debate.

Despite what we’ve seen on television, I believe that serious debate is taking place at kitchen tables all across America. In the past few years, I’ve received countless letters and questions about health care. Some people are in favor of reform, and others have concerns. But almost everyone understands that something must be done. Almost everyone knows that we must start holding insurance companies accountable and give Americans a greater sense of stability and security when it comes to their health care.

I am confident that when all is said and done, we can forge the consensus we need to achieve this goal. We are already closer to achieving health-insurance reform than we have ever been. We have the American Nurses Association and the American Medical Association on board, because our nation’s nurses and doctors know firsthand how badly we need reform. We have broad agreement in Congress on about 80 percent of what we’re trying to do. And we have an agreement from the drug companies to make prescription drugs more affordable for seniors. The AARP supports this policy, and agrees with us that reform must happen this year.

In the coming weeks, the cynics and the naysayers will continue to exploit fear and concerns for political gain. But for all the scare tactics out there, what’s truly scary " truly risky " is the prospect of doing nothing. If we maintain the status quo, we will continue to see 14,000 Americans lose their health insurance every day. Premiums will continue to skyrocket. Our deficit will continue to grow. And insurance companies will continue to profit by discriminating against sick people.

That is not a future I want for my children, or for yours. And that is not a future I want for the United States of America.

In the end, this isn’t about politics. This is about people’s lives and livelihoods. This is about people’s businesses. This is about America’s future, and whether we will be able to look back years from now and say that this was the moment when we made the changes we needed, and gave our children a better life. I believe we can, and I believe we will.

Barack Obama is the president of the United States.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 11:57 am
Another conservative complaint that the government will take over health care has been eliminated, because Obama is now saying that a public option is not necessary.

First, they complained that the optional end of life doctor consultation for families was a death panel was not only recommended by a conservative congressman, but how the conservatives interpreted it were all lies, so they've removed that option from the plan.

Secondly, they complained that this was a government take over of health care, so Obama has now said the public option is not necessary to revamp our country's health care.

What's going to be next on the list?
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

What's going to be next on the list?


healthcare in general is not needed. jesus is coming soon and we will go with him to live in heaven with god. and i do not want to pay for the health care of atheists.

wouldn't surprise me at all.


Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:08 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
But ... but ... but ... Jesus actually healed the sick persons. And he does so today. (NB: all the Mexican illegals - that is: all persons without health care - are no Christians but <sputter> Catholics!)
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

But ... but ... but ... Jesus actually healed the sick persons. And he does so today. (NB: all the Mexican illegals - that is: all persons without health care - are no Christians but <sputter> Catholics!)


good god, man! it's even worse than we thought!
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:16 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Thanks for the "Good God", DTOM, but I'm just a foreigner, and remember that you are not allowed to have foreign Gods!
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thanks for the "Good God", DTOM, but I'm just a foreigner, and remember that you are not allowed to have foreign Gods!


yer darned tootin', we aren't!

our all american god is from pennsylvania!



 http://www.bethlehem-pa.gov/images/_nav/header_Index.jpg

 http://www.jeffreyhuntermovies.com/NewSite/images/HomePageImages/KOK35r.jpg

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:44 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
I know - phone number 6-5000.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I know - phone number 6-5000.


and don't forget to stop by the gift shop.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:55 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
I'm a big fan of these devotional objects ...
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:57 pm
What I find so interesting about this health care debate is that the conservatives are saying that the government will take over health care.
They make this statement as more people lose their jobs and their private health care plans, and the cost of health care continues to increase at rates many companies and individuals are unable to keep up with. When are they going to realize that the cost of health care in this country is not benefiting more people; it's just costing more!

How many of these same people will be losing their health insurance?
They don't want anything done to solve all the problems we face now and in the future

What's wrong with these people? They want more of the same? Has not any family member or friend been affected by the loss of health insurance and/or the increasing cost of health insurance?

Why are they so negative about debating health insurance for Americans?
It affects all of us - sooner or later.

We spend the most for health care, but our overall health and longivity falls into third world country levels. Is that "more of the same" they are fighting for?

I'm really confused!

Has any conservative made any recommendation or solution for the current problems on health care? It seems to me that their total message is fear-mongering.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm a big fan of these devotional objects ...


ya can't make it up...


   http://www.christiancandy.com/image/homepage.jpg


one would certainly not want to confess with an unfresh mouth.


0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:13 pm
Looks like the health care debate is over. And nothing substantive changes. It will be 16 to twenty years before the opportunity comes again. Democratic majority, my ass.
 

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