65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 05:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I told 'em I was the only real American on A2K and that ace post proves it.

That's my attitude more or less exactly.

Apert from the sport I mean. But I can understand the guy not understanding cricket. It is a bit complex.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 05:20 pm
About the only "restrictions" I've seen from the feds.

From the Boston Globe.
Quote:
White House restricts states' expansion of Medicaid
By Robert Pear
New York Times News Service / January 4, 2008

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is restricting the ability of states to expand eligibility for Medicaid, part of an effort to prevent them from offering coverage to families of modest income who, the administration argues, may have access to private health insurance.
more stories like this


The restrictions mirror those the administration placed on the Children's Health Insurance Program in August after states tried to broaden eligibility for it, as well.

Until now, states had generally been free to set their own Medicaid eligibility criteria, and the Bush administration had not openly declared that it would apply the August directive to Medicaid. State officials in Louisiana, Ohio, and Oklahoma said they had discovered the administration's intent in negotiations with the federal government.

The federal government has leverage over states, because it pays a large share of the costs for Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program, and states have to comply with federal standards to get federal money. The children's program was created for those whose families have too much income to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to buy private insurance.

On Dec. 20, the Bush administration rejected a proposal by Ohio to expand its Medicaid program to cover 35,000 more children. Ohio now offers Medicaid to children with family incomes up to twice the poverty level, or about $41,000 a year for a family of four. The state had proposed increasing the limit to three times the poverty level, about $62,000.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 07:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I do not accept the premise that statements which you or anyone else make are factual based on nothing more than your assertion that they are. Let me issue a specific challenge

So, this statement is total bullshit, right...

Quote:
Two years ago, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer, and received eight weeks of radiation therapy at great cost
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 10:59 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
I do not accept the premise that statements which you or anyone else make are factual based on nothing more than your assertion that they are. Let me issue a specific challenge

So, this statement is total bullshit, right...

Quote:
Two years ago, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer, and received eight weeks of radiation therapy at great cost



You quoted me, but put CI's name on it; so, if the second quote is also supposed to be me, then yes; that's bullshit.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:03 am
@Cycloptichorn,
That's taken out of context; I'm on Medicare, and my total out of pocket cost was probably in the neighborhood of $200 all for pre-treatment doctor's appointments and other lab work. According to a web research I did on the cost of prostate cancer radiation therapy, I saw figures anywhere from around $35,000 to $50,000. I never paid that much into Medicare premiums when I worked.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:07 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, You are making an assumption that our government will be able to pay back the social security trust fund in 2042?

Where did you get the notion that the 70% is a good number?

I have a bridge in Montana to sell to you!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:15 am
@cicerone imposter,
This is from the social security administration.
Quote:
The deficits will be made up by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037, at which point tax income would be sufficient to pay about three fourths of scheduled benefits through 2083.
.

"Exhausted" to me means "no more" in 2037. With the current economic crisis and thousands till losing their jobs, that 2037 year is too conservative from where I stand. I don't see the employment picture improving any time soon, and ten years from now seems optimistic to me!

With the baby-boomers beginning to retire soon, I see the trust fund exhausted much sooner! With less people in the work force paying a much larger retirement population, even the "three fourths of scheduled benefits" sounds too optimistic IMHO.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, You are making an assumption that our government will be able to pay back the social security trust fund in 2042?

Where did you get the notion that the 70% is a good number?

I have a bridge in Montana to sell to you!


We pay less than 70% of our bills right now, let alone our SS bills 32 years from now; and our government is neither bankrupt nor collapsing. The point isn't that the situation is a good one, but that 2042 doesn't represent some 'bankruptcy' date for Social Security.

And, it's easily fixable; get rid of the caps on SS collections, increase everyone else's payment by 1%, and cut SS checks by 1%, and you easily get another 40-50 years out of the program. Of course, if we stopped jacking money from the Trust fund, it would last much longer...

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:28 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Your mathematics is as deficient as is your economics.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:38 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo wrote:
Quote:
We pay less than 70% of our bills right now, let alone our SS bills 32 years from now; and our government is neither bankrupt nor collapsing.


How did you arrive at 70%? Millions have lost their jobs, and thousands are losing their jobs daily. This trend is not going to be reversed any time soon.

Your pie in the sky optimism is not only unrealistic, but I'd like to see some evidence for your numbers.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:48 am
CI, you still havent answered my question, and neither has anyone else supporting health care reform.

You said that health care reform would benefit ALL Americans.

So, how will it benefit American expats living in foreign countries?
Or, do you not consider them Americans?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:07 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Your mathematics is as deficient as is your economics.


In which way?

I think you're still nettled that I've challenged you to provide some actual backup for your arguments. Are you going to bother to do that?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo wrote:
Quote:
We pay less than 70% of our bills right now, let alone our SS bills 32 years from now; and our government is neither bankrupt nor collapsing.


How did you arrive at 70%? Millions have lost their jobs, and thousands are losing their jobs daily. This trend is not going to be reversed any time soon.


Yes, but I'm talking about Federal spending - our country racks up quite a bit of debt each year, but we don't describe it as 'bankrupt.' SS will not be 'bankrupt' in 2042. That's my entire point.

Quote:
Your pie in the sky optimism is not only unrealistic, but I'd like to see some evidence for your numbers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

Quote:
On the other hand, Bush has referred to the system going "broke" in 2042. That date arises from the anticipated depletion of the Trust Fund, so Bush's language "seem[s] to suggest that there's something there that goes away in 2042." [5] Specifically, in 2042 and for many decades thereafter, the Social Security system can continue to pay benefits, but benefit payments will be constrained by the revenue base from the 12.4% FICA (Social Security payroll) tax on wages. According to the Social Security trustees, continuing payroll tax revenues at the rate of 12.4% will enable Social Security to pay about 74% of promised benefits during the 2040s, with this ratio falling to about 70% by the end of the forecast period in 2080. [6] The Social Security trustees recognize that the greatest risk faced by Social Security is not that the US Treasury will default on the bonds held by the Social Security trust funds, but that the Social Security program has consistently promised benefits that it could never afford to pay in the long run, and therefore at some point in the future Congress will be forced to either lower benefits or raise FICA taxes.


It's not pie-in-the-sky optimism, it's researching the actual situation. And the recommendations for how to fix it which I presented mirror the ones presented by the SS trustees.

To put things specifically - the trust fund hasn't 'ran out,' it's sitting there in bonds that must be repaid from the general budget.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You're describing something from Bush's tenure that doesn't apply today. You do notice the difference, don't you? See my above post on job loss, and how long this trend is going to last. Then figure out how that 12.4% of social security taxes on a much lower employment population as the retirement population grows is the same.

Here's the BLS table on unemployment.
Quote:
Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

Series Id: LNS14000000
Seasonal Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Unemployment Rate
Labor force status: Unemployment rate
Type of data: Percent
Age: 16 years and over

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
1999 4.3 4.4 4.2 4.3 4.2 4.3 4.3 4.2 4.2 4.1 4.1 4.0
2000 4.0 4.1 4.0 3.8 4.0 4.0 4.0 4.1 3.9 3.9 3.9 3.9
2001 4.2 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.3 4.5 4.6 4.9 5.0 5.3 5.5 5.7
2002 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.9 6.0
2003 5.8 5.9 5.9 6.0 6.1 6.3 6.2 6.1 6.1 6.0 5.8 5.7
2004 5.7 5.6 5.8 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.5 5.4 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.4
2005 5.2 5.4 5.2 5.2 5.1 5.1 5.0 4.9 5.0 5.0 5.0 4.8
2006 4.7 4.8 4.7 4.7 4.7 4.6 4.7 4.7 4.5 4.4 4.5 4.4
2007 4.6 4.5 4.4 4.5 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.7 4.7 4.8 4.7 4.9
2008 4.9 4.8 5.1 5.0 5.5 5.6 5.8 6.2 6.2 6.6 6.8 7.2
2009 7.6 8.1 8.5 8.9 9.4 9.5 9.4


Bush tried to push his social security plan in 2005 when the unemployment rate was hovering in the lower 5% range. It's now almost double that, and it will continue to increase to over 10% not many months from now. Now, how does the government continue to pay 70% with a 55% increase in unemployment?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You're describing something from Bush's tenure that doesn't apply today. You do notice the difference, don't you? See my above post on job loss, and how long this trend is going to last. Then figure out how that 12.4% of social security taxes on a much lower employment population as the retirement population grows is the same.


Employment trends rise and fall, and over time will balance out.

But; I have already agreed, that SS taxes will have to be raised and the amount paid out will have to be lowered somewhat in order to continue the operation of the program. It isn't as if I don't know what has to be done to keep the system going in the long run.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Yes, it "might" balance out, but the biggest question that remains are when and how much? What will the actual "balance" be in unemployment in the future? We used to consider 4% unemployment as "full employment." That number will probably increase to much higher rates in the future.

Not only are tens of thousands losing their jobs today, but we can't even meet the demand for jobs for our high school and college graduates, and those numbers increase daily. It's estimated that over two million fall into the job seekers category every year. When do you expect this "balancing out" to happen?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:28 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You are correct that soverign entities, able to print or otherwise create money, cannot go bankrupt. However the money so created can lose all value, causing the collapse of ordinary economic activity and credit - and the collapse of the political structure and legitamacy of the government itself. This has happened several times during the last century, and in each case the social and economic effects were devastating and long-lasting (the hyper inflation that occurred in the late 1920s & early 1930s in Germany is the classic example).

Your blithe willingness to increase taxation (mostly on others) ignores the effects of such taxation, just as your willingness to continue to expand our government deficits (whether they come from the -largely ficticious- social security trust fund or the government's general fund) ignores the very predictable economic consequences. Worse in both areas you ignore the fundamentals of our demography. Our population is ageing (though far less quickly than those of Europe), and the ratio of those paying taxes to both the social security "fund" and the government's general fund to those no longer employed and drawing benefits is steadily lowering.

Ever higher tax rates imposed on a (relatively) ever lower portion of the population - to support social benefits to an ever growing fraction is not a sustainable proposition - from several perspectives.

Your simplistic (I hesitate to say simple-minded) arithmetic is not nearly sufficient to back up your, frankly absurd, proposition. A magic wand is what you need.

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:31 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You are correct that soverign entities, able to print or otherwise create money, cannot go bankrupt. ....

If that's what Cycl said - sorry, I skip his posts, especially on the subject of economics of which he's wholly innocent - then he's wrong. Sovereign entities can and do go bankrupt: the German Democratic Republic did so last century, the Confederacy did it a century before that and so on.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:33 pm
@georgeob1,
I didn't think I needed to respond to Cyclo's claim that the government never goes broke.

At my age, I'm not that worried about inflation, but I worry for the future generations on how our government continues to spend money they don't have. Printing increasing numbers of currency without anything backing it up only results in run-away inflation or bankruptcy. Our money becomes worthless in the world marketplace.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:55 pm
I would challenge anyone to point out where I claimed the government 'cannot go broke.' As I never made that statement, you will be hard-pressed to find it.

These conversations would be more productive if people would quote what I actually said, instead of creating straw-man arguments.

Quote:

Your blithe willingness to increase taxation (mostly on others) ignores the effects of such taxation


I don't listen to Republicans when it comes to predictions of doom linked to higher taxes. Historically, this has not been the case, and your argument is based on your ideology, not some overwhelming proof that raising taxes is harmful to our society.

Cycloptichorn
 

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