IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@Debra Law,

Your boogeymen are Republicans, or law abiding taxpaying citizens, the people that make this country work. You are a loser, Debra, plain and simple.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

If you (and CI) choose to argue, ridicule, and rebut the most ignorant of the other side, it says much more about you than it does about the other side.

All we see are the ignorant, bat-**** insane, whackos who yell and scream. All we hear about are the violent, scary-as-hell, whackos who hang congressmen in effigy, make death threats, and carry their guns to town hall meetings. When is the "other side" going to present a rational, sane voice? We're waiting.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Your boogeymen are Republicans, or law abiding taxpaying citizens, the people that make this country work. You are a loser, Debra, plain and simple.

Your personal attack is unwarranted. I'm a law-abiding citizen, okie. My husband and I own a business and we do our share to grow the economy. My husband and I pay many thousands of dollars in taxes every year. Your thesis that Republicans make this country work, apparently to the exclusion of all others, is erroneous. The Republicans are the ones who drove this country over a cliff. The Republicans are throwing wrenches in all efforts to rebuild this country and they're encouraging all the whacko extremists to crawl out of the woodwork. We notice what the Republicans are doing and they're no better than spoiled rotten children throwing a very dangerous temper tantrum because our democratic system threw their greedy, self-serving asses out of office.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

All we see are the ignorant, bat-**** insane, whackos who yell and scream. All we hear about are the violent, scary-as-hell, whackos who hang congressmen in effigy, make death threats, and carry their guns to town hall meetings. When is the "other side" going to present a rational, sane voice? We're waiting.

Thats because you aren't looking very close, or perhaps its because your media is intentionally showing only certain individuals that make up way less than 1%, or perhaps it is because you are intentionally lying about who we are? You see, we know your game, it involves attempting to isolate your opposition, then marginalize us. It is a very dishonest game you are playing, and you therefore are earning no respect whatsoever, but you are driving the stakes higher and increasing the anger level. Obama is a divider, not a uniter. Divide and conquer, that is apparently his game plan.

0 Replies

@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

Your personal attack is unwarranted. I'm a law-abiding citizen, okie. My husband and I own a business and we do our share to grow the economy. My husband and I pay many thousands of dollars in taxes every year. Your thesis that Republicans make this country work, apparently to the exclusion of all others, is erroneous. The Republicans are the ones who drove this country over a cliff. The Republicans are throwing wrenches in all efforts to rebuild this country and they're encouraging all the whacko extremists to crawl out of the woodwork. We notice what the Republicans are doing and they're no better than spoiled rotten children throwing a very dangerous temper tantrum because our democratic system threw their greedy, self-serving asses out of office.

Again, you are attempting to stereotype us, the very same thing you are accusing me of. I am also a law abiding citizen, a business owner, I pay many thousands in taxes every year, and I resent the fact that you and your buddies are calling us names and trying to marginalize us as idiots or worse, racists, or whatever else you feel like saying to try to demonize us. You are the spoiled rotten children that want everyone to knuckle under your policy. Go do your thing, but leave the rest of us alone, okay, so knock it off and mind your own business, okay.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Debra Law wrote:

Your personal attack is unwarranted. I'm a law-abiding citizen, okie. My husband and I own a business and we do our share to grow the economy. My husband and I pay many thousands of dollars in taxes every year. Your thesis that Republicans make this country work, apparently to the exclusion of all others, is erroneous. The Republicans are the ones who drove this country over a cliff. The Republicans are throwing wrenches in all efforts to rebuild this country and they're encouraging all the whacko extremists to crawl out of the woodwork. We notice what the Republicans are doing and they're no better than spoiled rotten children throwing a very dangerous temper tantrum because our democratic system threw their greedy, self-serving asses out of office.

Again, you are attempting to stereotype us, the very same thing you are accusing me of. I am also a law abiding citizen, a business owner, I pay many thousands in taxes every year, and I resent the fact that you and your buddies are calling us names and trying to marginalize us as idiots or worse, racists, or whatever else you feel like saying to try to demonize us. You are the spoiled rotten children that want everyone to knuckle under your policy. Go do your thing, but leave the rest of us alone, okay, so knock it off and mind your own business, okay.

I'll say whatever I want to say. There's a TON of evidence to demonstrate the bat-**** craziness and ignorance of GOP conservatives, and I will continue to post it and talk about it. You don't like that? I don't care.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

The fact that you don't care says more about you than about me or us. I happen to know alot of people that are hard working, law abiding, and tax paying citizens, good reasonable people with great families, that oppose Obama's policies for very sound reasons. Instead of trying to work out bipartisan reasonable workable, and economically sound solutions, your side is instead choosing to demonize us, and I am telling you it won't work. We will not give up our constitutional right to speak up for what we believe and to ask legitimate questions, and to work for solutions that we believe in. You do not happen to speak for all of us, okay, do you have that straight? We are not going to all become little minions or stooges of Obama.

2 Replies

Jon Stewart:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-10-2009/healther-skelter

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

I happen to know alot of people . . . that oppose Obama's policies for very sound reasons.

Where are they?

What are their "sound reasons" for opposing healthcare reform?

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

We will not give up our constitutional right to speak up for what we believe and to ask legitimate questions, and to work for solutions that we believe in. You do not happen to speak for all of us, okay, do you have that straight? We are not going to all become little minions or stooges of Obama.

When given opportunities to ask "legitimate questions," you crazies make statements like, "Obama is scary," "Obama wants to euthanize Grandma," and "Obama wants to kill Sarah Palin's baby."

I can speak for MYSELF, okay, do you have that straight? You guys are batshit crazy. If you guys have "legitimate questions," then state them. If you have anything reasonable to contribute to the debate, then do so. But when you continue to purchase tickets to ride the crazy train everyday, don't be surprised when the rest of us take notice.

2 Replies

@Debra Law,

Quote:

If you guys have "legitimate questions," then state them.

Then I suggest you go back and read the questions I asked here on this thread.
I am reading the bill now, and had several questions.

I notice none of you that are pushing this bill have attempted to answer them.

4 Replies

@mysteryman,

I oppose the bill based upon principle, that being that I and my doctor can make better more efficient decisions without a bureaucracy helping dictate the process, and possibly ration my care. Also, Obama says if I like my policy, I can keep it. Thats a lie, perhaps not technically, but in practice it will be, because Obama wants single payer and he counts on his plan putting alot of insurers out of business by many of the policies and mandates that will be instituted. I don't think its even worth going any further with the details that can be found, as those two basic reasons are enough to cause me to reject the whole thing out of hand.

Also, another lie, Obama and his supporters like to say at least they have a solution while we have none, but they ignore many of the proposed solutions and tweaking that could be done to improve a good health care system into an even better one. Obama and his supporters like to accuse us of misinformation, but his whole operation is misinformation. Where do I report that, to Whitehouse.gov. Yeah sure, that would do a lot of good, ha ha.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

Why is Obama saying the AARP is endorsing the bill, when he knows they arent.
Did he "misspeak", or did he flat out lie about it?

0 Replies

To better understand what Obama is doing with his policies, including the health care push, read Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, which were used by Community Organizers, so Obama is well schooled there I think. He is using all of them, but pay attention to Numbers 10 and 12.

RULE 1: "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." Power is derived from 2 main sources - money and people. "Have-Nots" must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)

RULE 2: "Never go outside the expertise of your people." It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don't address the "real" issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)

RULE 3: "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

RULE 4: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules." If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity's very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)

RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)

RULE 6: "A good tactic is one your people enjoy." They'll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They're doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid "un-fun" activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)

RULE 7: "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag." Don't become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)

RULE 8: "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)

RULE 9: "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists' minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)

RULE 10: "If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)

RULE 11: "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." Never let the enemy score points because you're caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
If you guys have "legitimate questions," then state them.

Then I suggest you go back and read the questions I asked here on this thread.
I am reading the bill now, and had several questions.

I notice none of you that are pushing this bill have attempted to answer them.

There is no bill to push. There are several proposals being worked on by various committees and congressional representatives.

The Kaisar Family Foundation has provided a side by side comparison of several proposals:

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm

I have not checked the accuracy of the website, but you should be able to discern that there is not any particular bill that is being pushed. There exist several proposals (all works in progress) that are floating around various committees. Our representatives are trying to discover the wants and needs of the people during the summer recess. When they return to Washington in the fall, they have a lot of work to do before a final proposed bill will be ready for a vote.

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

I oppose the bill based upon principle, that being that I and my doctor can make better more efficient decisions without a bureaucracy helping dictate the process, and possibly ration my care. Also, Obama says if I like my policy, I can keep it. Thats a lie, perhaps not technically, but in practice it will be, because Obama wants single payer and he counts on his plan putting alot of insurers out of business by many of the policies and mandates that will be instituted. I don't think its even worth going any further with the details that can be found, as those two basic reasons are enough to cause me to reject the whole thing out of hand.

Also, another lie, Obama and his supporters like to say at least they have a solution while we have none, but they ignore many of the proposed solutions and tweaking that could be done to improve a good health care system into an even better one. Obama and his supporters like to accuse us of misinformation, but his whole operation is misinformation. Where do I report that, to Whitehouse.gov. Yeah sure, that would do a lot of good, ha ha.

The only one who is lying is YOU, okie.

You're spouting the UNTRUE, scare-mongering, obstructionist talking points that your puppeteers have fed to you.

A bureaucrat between you and your doctor! Rationing healthcare! You've borrowed your lines from the GOP/conservative talking points "script" written by GOP pollster/prostitute Frank Luntz and funded by the insurance industry:

The Language of Healthcare 2009

By regurgitating the words that have been fed to you, you have proven yourself to be a useful puppet. When are you going to start thinking for yourself? Why do you carry the water for insurance companies? They don't give a damn about you or your family's healthcare needs. They're only concerned about getting your premium every month, denying your claims, and continuing their windfall profits. Why else would they be spending over a million dollars everyday to oppose healthcare reform?

1 Reply

Frank Luntz warns GOP: Health reform is popular

Dr. Frank Luntz, a top Republican consultant on the language of politics, is warning the GOP that the American people want health-care reform and that lawmakers need to try to avoid directly opposing President Barack Obama.

“You simply MUST be vocally and passionately on the side of REFORM,” Luntz advises in a confidential 26-page report obtained from Capitol Hill Republicans. “The status quo is no longer acceptable. If the dynamic becomes ‘President Obama is on the side of reform and Republicans are against it,’ then the battle is lost and every word in this document is useless.

“Republicans must be for the right kind of reform that protects the quality of healthcare for all Americans. And you must establish your support of reform early in your presentation.”

Instead, Luntz says Republicans should warn against a “Washington takeover” of health care, and insist that patients would have to “stand in line” with “Washington bureaucrats in charge of healthcare.”

Luntz, the author of the bestselling book “Words That Work: It's Not What You Say, It's What People Hear,” has been involved in creating much of the language Republican lawmakers used from 1994 through 2004, but was tossed out by the House leadership in 2005. One of his coups was popularizing the phrase “death tax” for “inheritance tax.”

Adding a personalized patina to familiar conservative arguments, Luntz also urges Republicans to say that “One-size-does-NOT-fit-all.”

And he suggests they steer constituents toward keep the “current arrangement by asking at “every healthcare town hall forum”: “Would you rather … ‘Pay the costs you pay today for the quality of care you currently receive,’ OR ‘Pay less for your care, but potentially have to wait weeks for tests and months for treatments you need.’”

Luntz’s prescription reflects the fact that many of the opponents of a health-care overhaul at the start of the Clinton administration are now participating in Capitol Hill negotiations on this year’s version, hoping to improve legislation that they now regard as all but inevitable.

Here are some suggested arguments for Republicans that Luntz calls “clear winners”:

"“It could lead to the government setting standards of care, instead of doctors who really know what’s best.”

"“It could lead to the government rationing care, making people stand in line and denying treatment like they do in other countries with national healthcare.”

-“President Obama wants to put the Washington bureaucrats in charge of healthcare. I want to put the medical professionals in charge, and I want patients as an equal partner.”

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

Are you suggesting that The United States is in any way unique in this area??

Or that the ever benign government of Great Britain (and its former empire) is now or ever has been immune to materialistic considerations or sectional interests that might be put above the health of any of its subjects?????

No. I'm not suggesting that. But we aim to be as an ideal.

And judging from the story of the American working in London we are a fair way towards it.

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

To better understand what Obama is doing with his policies, including the health care push, read Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, which were used by Community Organizers, so Obama is well schooled there I think. He is using all of them, but pay attention to Numbers 10 and 12.....

GLENN BECK says that Obama Is Just Like Saul Alinsky

Okie: You're swallowing and regurgitating Glenn Beck, as usual. You're one of those people on the lunatic fringe who have so much empty space in their heads that they fill it by watching FOX 24/7. You worship the worst person in the world. He profits from your frothing appetite for his hate-mongering kool-ade.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

Quote:

Yes, but you apparently dont realize they they had a no strike clause in their contracts AND as federal employees they were forbidden by law from going on strike.

Doctors and nurses are "certificated" I presume. Their treatments are regulated by the FDA. Their premises are subject to certain controls.

All I'm saying mm is that it is a question of leadership. I don't see a public debate solving anything. That just goes around in circles as can be seen on here in microcosm.

0 Replies

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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