IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@mysteryman,

DebraLaw wrote:

If you guys have "legitimate questions," then state them.

Do you really expect us to believe that someone who claims/appears to be a lawyer or lawyer-type doesn't already know what the legitimate concerns of the other side ARE??!!

You've already heard the legitimate questions; you know what they are. Now you're just being disingenuous.

I hope you don't practice law the way to appear to think through this topic.

In case you still don't know what some of the concerns are, we can focus on one that a blue-dog like myself has. "How the frak are we going to pay for this?"

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@Debra Law,

Debra, you are fooling yourself if you don't think healthcare will be rationed. It will have to be.

Okie is fooling himself if he doesn't think healthcare is ALREADY rationed.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

DebraLaw wrote:

If you guys have "legitimate questions," then state them.

Do you really expect us to believe that someone who claims/appears to be a lawyer or lawyer-type doesn't already know what the legitimate concerns of the other side ARE??!!

I know an ass when I see one. And you're being an ass. I have yet to hear a legitimate concern about healthcare reform.

Quote:

You've already heard the legitimate questions; you know what they are. Now you're just being disingenuous.

You're just being an ass. If any legitimate concerns exist, it would be very easy for you to list them.

Quote:

I hope you don't practice law the way to appear to think through this topic.

I don't give a damn about what you "hope" about my private business. Again, you're just being an ass.

Quote:

In case you still don't know what some of the concerns are, we can focus on one that a blue-dog like myself has. "How the frak are we going to pay for this?"

By closing the tax loopholes, including the one that allows the richest of the rich to stash billions of dollars in offshore accounts to avoid taxes, by raising taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year, by clamping down on medicare fraud, etc., etc., etc.,

We need healthcare reform and we will pay for it. What we don't need is to spend billions of dollars every month to finance military operations overseas. If we can raise money to kill people while we're at war for many years, we can certainly raise money to save people's lives.

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Debra, you are fooling yourself if you don't think healthcare will be rationed. It will have to be.

Okie is fooling himself if he doesn't think healthcare is ALREADY rationed.

The government will not be rationing healthcare. But we all know, for instance, that there are not enough organs to go around for everyone who needs them. Obviously, some minimal criteria must be established to determine who qualifies for transplant services. My father couldn't even get on the transplant waiting list because he had more than two cancerous tumors on his liver. At least that's what we were told and that information was false.

Minimal criteria for placement of adults on the liver transplant waiting list: a report of a national conference organized by the American Society of Transplant Physicians and the American Association for the Study of Liver Diseases.

Quote:

Minimal criteria for any patient with a primary hepatocellular cancer would admit any patient with a tumor confined to the liver irrespective of size or number of tumors, after careful investigation had failed to show spread to lymph nodes, the portal vein, or distant organs.

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@Debra Law,

Right I heard Obama say all those things too. Give me specifics. How much will this program cost, and detail exactly how we are going to pay for it (what loopholes will we close, and how much will that get us?, what % are we going to raise taxes on those making >=250k?).

This whole program is very short on the details.

You know what will happen. They will finally publish a bill, and they'll vote on it w/in 24 hours, giving nobody time to dissect it.

So, until then you can claim "We don't know the details because there isn't a bill passed." And then once the bill is passed and we can finally begin discussing those details we're all looking for, it will already be up for a vote in Congress, which if it goes down that way, I hope you'll speak out about how democrats are ram-rodding things through Congress without giving people time to digest the details.

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@Debra Law,

You know I'm right Debra. You've heard the bulk of the concerns, and as some who is likely trained to anticipate the oppositions questions, tactics, and concerns, you are fully aware of the legitimate arguments of the opposition.

Knowing this, and reading your statement where you said you didn't know the arguments, leaves us withe conclusion that you are simply a liar (another popular lawyering skill).

1 Reply

Total UK government spending in 2009 is £631 billion.

Health is £110 billion, pensions £110 billion, education £80 billion, defence £42 billion and welfare £94 billion.

About 16% for universal health care from cradle to grave. No euthenasia. No discrimination.

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@maporsche,

Quote:

In case you still don't know what some of the concerns are, we can focus on one that a blue-dog like myself has. "How the frak are we going to pay for this?"

Dude; how hard a question is this to figure out?

Taxes. We are going to pay for this through taxes. A combination of the sun-setting Bush tax cuts and tax raises on the rich, and an 8% tax on those businesses who don't offer health care.

And, it's worth it to do so. It is a good thing for our society to do so. I would not complain if my own taxes were raised to pay for this.

I gotta agree with Deb here, that you are sort of being a contrarian/ass. How much research have YOU done on what is being debated in Congress? The answers you are looking for are out there if you'll put some effort into it.

The truth is that we don't know how either the House or the Senate bill will look before they are ready to be voted on; the Senate bill for all intents and purposes doesn't exist at all right now. Then, the bills will have to be reconciled. Then, they will have to be voted on AGAIN by both sections of Congress. There is plenty of time for discussion and debate of the 'final product.' These accusations of ram-rodding don't match the reality of the situation, but they do allow you to engage in one of your favorite passtimes - bitching about the Dems and Obama.

Cycloptichorn

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

You know I'm right Debra. You've heard the bulk of the concerns, and as some who is likely trained to anticipate the oppositions questions, tactics, and concerns, you are fully aware of the legitimate arguments of the opposition.

Knowing this, and reading your statement where you said you didn't know the arguments, leaves us withe conclusion that you are simply a liar (another popular lawyering skill).

You have no idea what you're pissing your pants over. How many times do you have to be told: There are no legitimate arguments against healthcare reform.

We have known for a very long time--even before Bill Clinton was president--that healthcare reform was a necessity. There is NO EXCUSE for failing to act, yet the GOP and the insurance industry employ obstruction and they have done so for years and years--and NOT for the benefit of the people. Here's the Comptroller General's report that came out during the Bush Administration:

May 2004

Healthcare: Unsustainable Trends Necessitate Comprehensive and Fundamental Reforms to Control Spending and Improve Value
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04793sp.pdf

Why didn't the Bush Administration address with this problem? If we don't address it now, when will be a good time to do it? After our healthcare system has completely crashed over the cliff? How much will the disaster cost us then? An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure. (How many times do we have to learn that lesson?)

Like it or not, reform is necessary.

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@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

I can speak for MYSELF, okay, do you have that straight? You guys are batshit crazy. If you guys have "legitimate questions," then state them. If you have anything reasonable to contribute to the debate, then do so. But when you continue to purchase tickets to ride the crazy train everyday, don't be surprised when the rest of us take notice.

Given that the essential features of our system of government are defined individual freedoms; explicit limits on the domain and power of government; and the expressed consent of the governed - it seems to me that you should be more circumspect in prejudging the worth of the opinions of those who oppose proposed legislation that is both new in character & extent and highly intrusive on the lives of everyone. It is one thing to disagree: quite another to sweepingly characterize those who disagree as cretins.

This seems particularly apt given the lengths to which you go in asserting your knowledge and understanding of the (ahem !) "law". It should be sufficient for you to note their opposition and try to deal with it. You exhibit the same authoritarian, proscriptive character in this that our increasingly inept Administration is demonstrating with respect to the public health issue. They have quickly squandered a very strong political position, creating what may prove to be a lasting vulnerability in our political dynamic. For your part, you have made yourself look merely like an irritable, self-important ass.

I don't think that that is the whole picture with respect to you any more than yours is with respect to those with whom you disagree - and the large group of skeptics on this issue that you have so blithely mischaracterized.

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@Debra Law,

Debra, To be fair, there is one major issue that's not been shared with the American People that needs sharing, and that is the total cost of this health plan. How much is it going to cost, and who's going to pay for it?

Most of the rhetoric from the right doesn't even address real health care issues, because most are based on non-issues of the health plan such as a death panel and loss of choice.

I blame Obama for all this misinformation being used against the plan, because he failed to communicate from the front end about the health plan being devised.

I also disagree with all the unnecessary social spending at a time when he needed to watch the growth of our deficit.

I believe it's good to question anything our government wants to implement, but all this misinformation only confuses an issue that should be more straight forward. It's become an information battle that's being lost.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Do you deny, George, that a significant amount of the disagreement on this issue is politically based? That is to say, do you deny the problems that passage of some form of Universal Health Care poses for the Republican party?

Cycloptichorn

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@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

We have known for a very long time--even before Bill Clinton was president--that healthcare reform was a necessity.

Even the Republican Richard Nixon knew that. Man I miss Richard Nixon.

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@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

It's a very eye-opening segment that demonstrates how those who are opposed to healthcare reform don't even know what they're protesting against.

Actually at best it's a very eye-opening segment that demonstrates that one woman who is opposed to healthcare reform doesn't know what she's protesting against. To smear all health reform protesters with that brush is not fair...

It is also a bit disengenuous for the commentator to somehow feel this woman must voice opposition to Social Security and Medicare simply because she is against socialism. I would throw the argument back into the face of the commentator and ask him if his support of these programs necessarily means he favors socialism over capitalism.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Given that the essential features of our system of government are defined individual freedoms; explicit limits on the domain and power of government; and the expressed consent of the governed - it seems to me that you should be more circumspect in prejudging the worth of the opinions of those who oppose proposed legislation that is both new in character & extent and highly intrusive on the lives of everyone. It is one thing to disagree: quite another to sweepingly characterize those who disagree as cretins.

The fear-mongers who are throwing gas on the discussion, like the ones who allege Sarah Palin's parents and baby will have to face a government "death panel," don't deserve any respect. These brainwashed obstructionists have the FREEDOM to say whatever they want, but the rest of us have the FREEDOM to notice that they're either ignorant or bat-**** crazy or both. There are no constitutional limits on congress's power to enact healthcare reform legislation. And speaking of "intrusive" legislation, when Bush was the governor of Texas, he signed the futile care law which allowed doctors to terminate life-sustaining treatment, even against the wishes of a family, upon ten days notice. (Maybe that was BUSH'S DEATH PANEL.) If you thought issues with our nation's healthcare system involves something NEW in character and extent, you're wrong. We've been traveling this road a very long time.

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This seems particularly apt given the lengths to which you go in asserting your knowledge and understanding of the (ahem !) "law".

You're full of holier-than-thou ****. This isn't a "legal" issue, this is a "policy" issue. Our congress, a political body, establishes the policy for the country.

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It should be sufficient for you to note their opposition and try to deal with it.

When their opposition is nothing more than spewing the nonsensical "talking points" of the insurance industry and FAUX News, I "deal with it" with the ridicule it deserves. It would be refreshing if the "opposition" voiced an original thought that wasn't fed to them by the propagandist, fear-monger, hate-monger Glenn Beck and company.

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You exhibit the same authoritarian, proscriptive character in this that our increasingly inept Administration is demonstrating with respect to the public health issue. They have quickly squandered a very strong political position, creating what may prove to be a lasting vulnerability in our political dynamic. For your part, you have made yourself look merely like an irritable, self-important ass.

I disagree that our present administration is inept. It has been extremely tolerant and accommodating and has squandered nothing. My opinion is just as important as your opinion. At least I'm not out there screeching my head off claiming that Obama wants to kill my mother and my father. They died years ago. They also had "excellent" health insurance plans that took their premiums and left them to fend for themselves when they needed their insurance the most.

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I don't think that that is the whole picture with respect to you any more than yours is with respect to those with whom you disagree - and the large group of skeptics on this issue that you have so blithely mischaracterized.

Healthcare reform is a necessity. How many more years do you think this country can continue on its current path without addressing this issue?

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@slkshock7,

slkshock7 wrote:

Debra Law wrote:
It's a very eye-opening segment that demonstrates how those who are opposed to healthcare reform don't even know what they're protesting against.

Actually at best it's a very eye-opening segment that demonstrates that one woman who is opposed to healthcare reform doesn't know what she's protesting against. To smear all health reform protesters with that brush is not fair...

There have been a depressing number of similar incidents caught on tape and picture, re: not knowing what they are protesting against. Many of the protesters go from attacking Health Care reform straight into calling Obama a 'socialist,' complaining about the bailout, and saying that he isn't a citizen of the US. It's obvious that most who are protesting are doing so as part of a larger, anti-Obama and anti-Dem agenda.

This isn't to say that good arguments cannot be made - just that those who are putting themselves forward, and showing up in the news, aren't making them.

Cycloptichorn

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@slkshock7,

slk, It's true that nobody should use a large brush to smear all protesters of the health plan, but you must also realize the logistics of why many think the way they do. If you can, please list for us the "real" solutions/discussions about the health care plan from the right? If you can list a handful of real solutions, you have a right to complain, but until then, we all must live in this world of media coverage that misinforms most of the time. Don't you agree?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Debra, To be fair, there is one major issue that's not been shared with the American People that needs sharing, and that is the total cost of this health plan. How much is it going to cost, and who's going to pay for it?

Of course it's been shared with the American People! Depending on the particular bill you're talking about, it'll cost between $90-150 billion a year over the next 10 years. It will be paid by letting the Bush tax cuts expire, and by raising the income tax bracket for those who make over $X a year, where X could be anywhere between 200,000 and 500,000. The tax rate in that bracket would be somewhere around 45%.

Granted -- because there is no final bill, the plan's financial details aren't available for the Democrats to share yet. But the general outline is clear, and has been shared since long before the election. Just search the fücking Web!

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@slkshock7,

slkshock7 wrote:

Debra Law wrote:
It's a very eye-opening segment that demonstrates how those who are opposed to healthcare reform don't even know what they're protesting against.

Actually at best it's a very eye-opening segment that demonstrates that one woman who is opposed to healthcare reform doesn't know what she's protesting against. To smear all health reform protesters with that brush is not fair...

From what I have seen and heard, they all appear to be reading from the same script.

Quote:

It is also a bit disengenuous for the commentator to somehow feel this woman must voice opposition to Social Security and Medicare simply because she is against socialism. I would throw the argument back into the face of the commentator and ask him if his support of these programs necessarily means he favors socialism over capitalism.

Not disingenuous at all because she's the one who identified single payer programs, like medicare, as socialism.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Quote:

"...it'll cost between $90-150 billion a year over the next 10 years."

If that's been shared, then I missed it. Excuse me for missing that very important information that's been part of the issues brought up by the conservatives. If this information was based on tea leaves like the projected cost of the Iraq war, then I still have questions.

I don't know of any economic projections that goes into ten years to be accurate. Do you?

2 Replies

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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